I feel like sOs is the one that after his most recent performance(s) has everyone thinking he won't advance, but I wouldn't be surprised if he shows us some interesting builds/strategies that throws off his opponents.
ByuN got very lucky, relatively speaking. His aggressive control-oriented style matches very well against the cheesy-aggressive style of herO and sOs (compared to say Stats whose style shuts ByuN down hard). Bunny is also one of the few Terrans whom ByuN can beat in TvT.
So while I think herO is stronger overall, I'd have to give ByuN the best chance of advancing in first. Second goes to sOs because herO can never beat him and Bunny is best in TvZ.
Then again whomever advances in first has to play Inno in the Ro8 so maybe that's not such a good thing after all.
On August 19 2017 08:33 Shellshock wrote: WOW HYPE!#@#!@#! THIS IS THE MOST HYPE GROUP IVE EVER SEEN herO is going to D O M I N A T E wow i cannot WAIT!!!
On August 19 2017 11:00 Diabolique wrote: Go sOs, go for that second place! You do not want to play vs. Innovation, you need Solar to get to the semifinals!
On August 19 2017 11:00 Diabolique wrote: Go sOs, go for that second place! You do not want to play vs. Innovation, you need Solar to get to the semifinals!
To be fair, the only person that actually wanted to play vs INnoVation was Gumiho, and look what happened to him... Though he did give about as respectable a showing as possible while still failing to advance. Horseshoes and hand grenades.
On August 19 2017 11:00 Diabolique wrote: Go sOs, go for that second place! You do not want to play vs. Innovation, you need Solar to get to the semifinals!
sOs beating Inno would be so sweet tho
Sweet perhaps, but pretty damn unlikely: aligulac.com
On August 19 2017 11:00 Diabolique wrote: Go sOs, go for that second place! You do not want to play vs. Innovation, you need Solar to get to the semifinals!
sOs beating Inno would be so sweet tho
sOs, even in his best times, was always losing to Inno. Innovation was too solid to have mind games influence him. But although Solar is in good form, sOs can beat him and keep the BlizzCon dream alive.
this series is kind of disappointing. the engagements have been pretty much suicidal on both sides for the most part. bunny is really going to have to show these kids how to play
On August 19 2017 13:52 Shellshock wrote: You guys know how Tasteless was like ByuN is Marineking if Marineking was good? well Marineking wouldnt have won Blizzcon like Byun.
On August 19 2017 14:04 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I wish this was on the test map
It this was on the test map, sOs would be dead within 5 minutes. Unless Bunny forgot to attack, in which case sOs would just blink all-in him into oblivion.
On August 19 2017 14:04 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I wish this was on the test map
It this was on the test map, sOs would be dead within 5 minutes. Unless Bunny forgot to attack, in which case sOs would just blink all-in him into oblivion.
It's almost like those changes are still in prototype form with lots of playtesting required!
On August 19 2017 14:04 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: I wish this was on the test map
It this was on the test map, sOs would be dead within 5 minutes. Unless Bunny forgot to attack, in which case sOs would just blink all-in him into oblivion.
It's almost like those changes are still in prototype form with lots of playtesting required!
On August 19 2017 14:10 pvsnp wrote: Wasn't there some amazing highlight reel way back in the day where sOs parked his whole army over Bunny's mines and promptly lost everything?
It was INnoVation on expedition lost, but yeah, that did happen. Bunny on the other hand killed sOs' whole economy with a two 4-mine drops on cactus valley.
On August 19 2017 14:10 pvsnp wrote: Wasn't there some amazing highlight reel way back in the day where sOs parked his whole army over Bunny's mines anNod promptly lost everything?
It was INnoVation on expedition lost, but yeah, that did happen. Bunny on the other hand killed sOs' whole economy with a two 4-mine drops on cactus valley.
Ah gotcha, thanks. WM certainly seem to do great against sOs
On August 19 2017 14:26 Noonius wrote: is mass carrier/storm the new bl/infestor?
I'd argue that as disgusting as bl/infestor was, you at least had a chance at some counter play. Carrier/storm has like 5 times the dps of BL/infestors, everything just melts.
On August 19 2017 14:28 pvsnp wrote: sOs confirmed that his name is short for "Soul of Sky" in SSL
Huh. Someone should start a thread one of these days explaining the origin of every pro player's name.
ESL did an "origin of IGN" thing at IEM Shanghai but it was pretty underwhelming. I loved Trust's tho: "I opened the dictionary and the first word I saw was Trust."
On August 19 2017 14:28 pvsnp wrote: sOs confirmed that his name is short for "Soul of Sky" in SSL
Huh. Someone should start a thread one of these days explaining the origin of every pro player's name.
ESL did an "origin of IGN" thing at IEM Shanghai but it was pretty underwhelming. I loved Trust's tho: "I opened the dictionary and the first word I saw was Trust."
Yeah most stories are pretty boring. Like earlier today during WCS qualifiers they were wondering about Namshar's id, but it's just Shaman backwards with a slight twist because the name was already taken in Warcraft. But some stories are bound to be of interest. Like Suppy being the one who chose Rogue's name.
On August 19 2017 14:26 Noonius wrote: is mass carrier/storm the new bl/infestor?
I'd argue that as disgusting as bl/infestor was, you at least had a chance at some counter play. Carrier/storm has like 5 times the dps of BL/infestors, everything just melts.
I always felt that storm in Sc2 is underwhelming compared to BW. It's just so much easier to have your screen where it needs to be and move your things out of storms.
On August 19 2017 14:28 pvsnp wrote: sOs confirmed that his name is short for "Soul of Sky" in SSL
Huh. Someone should start a thread one of these days explaining the origin of every pro player's name.
ESL did an "origin of IGN" thing at IEM Shanghai but it was pretty underwhelming. I loved Trust's tho: "I opened the dictionary and the first word I saw was Trust."
Yeah most stories are pretty boring. Like earlier today during WCS qualifiers they were wondering about Namshar's id, but it's just Shaman backwards with a slight twist because the name was already taken in Warcraft. But some stories are bound to be of interest. Like Suppy being the one who chose Rogue's name.
On August 19 2017 14:26 Noonius wrote: is mass carrier/storm the new bl/infestor?
I'd argue that as disgusting as bl/infestor was, you at least had a chance at some counter play. Carrier/storm has like 5 times the dps of BL/infestors, everything just melts.
I always felt that storm in Sc2 is underwhelming compared to BW. It's just so much easier to have your screen where it needs to be and move your things out of storms.
And it does a lot less damage. But things also clump a lot more and smartcasting is a thing, so it'd be too strong unchanged.
On August 19 2017 14:28 pvsnp wrote: sOs confirmed that his name is short for "Soul of Sky" in SSL
Huh. Someone should start a thread one of these days explaining the origin of every pro player's name.
ESL did an "origin of IGN" thing at IEM Shanghai but it was pretty underwhelming. I loved Trust's tho: "I opened the dictionary and the first word I saw was Trust."
Yeah most stories are pretty boring. Like earlier today during WCS qualifiers they were wondering about Namshar's id, but it's just Shaman backwards with a slight twist because the name was already taken in Warcraft. But some stories are bound to be of interest. Like Suppy being the one who chose Rogue's name.
On August 19 2017 15:05 Ishmael wrote: goddamn sOs is trash sometimes
gotta keep toss from getting nerfed somehow. that's why terrans are so stupid, when they are op, they just keep winning until they get nerfed to the ground. that's not smart
What was that (WCG?) group where Stork had to lose to White-Ra to get second place in the group? But because it was round robin he had to throw game after game, but White-Ra still kept on losing to the third player maintaining the deadlock.
these are the kinds of games where as terran I take like two bases at once and do something dumb with a medivac and end up losing, so, props to ByuN for not doing that, I guess
And with that Ro8 secured, ByuN surge from 11th to 6th place in the Korean WCS standing, just ahead of herO who should get the 6th seed back if he qualifies today. One step closer to ByuN clenching Blizzcon and the chance to defend his world title
On August 19 2017 15:20 fastr wrote: And with that Ro8 secured, ByuN surge from 11th to 6th place in the Korean WCS standing, just ahead of herO who should get the 6th seed back if he qualifies today. One step closer to ByuN clenching Blizzcon and the chance to defend his world title
you mean clinching but clenching is good since byun's old IDs had to do with poop
On August 19 2017 15:20 fastr wrote: And with that Ro8 secured, ByuN surge from 11th to 6th place in the Korean WCS standing, just ahead of herO who should get the 6th seed back if he qualifies today. One step closer to ByuN clenching Blizzcon and the chance to defend his world title
you mean clinching but clenching is good since byun's old IDs had to do with poop
Hahaha right, also my butt was clenching in that last map after my third coffee of the morning, time to release the gracken
Probably worth noting that Inno is 11-1 in offline TvT series ever since he got knocked out of GSL Season 2 (and fixed his TvT). He's beaten Maru, ByuN, aLive, Gumiho, and TY while losing once to Gumiho.
GSL vs the World went too well. Koreans are trying to show us they can play awful too.
Hath not a Korean hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a Foreigner is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh (except for INnoVation)?
On August 19 2017 15:52 Shellshock wrote: for real tho if he got lib range is it possible for bunny to lose this? there would be no shot at tempest tech
Yeah lib range is much better than 4 libs at a time in this situation in almost any situation really
Hath not a Korean hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a Foreigner is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh (except for INnoVation)?
Machines care not for Shylock, it seems. Can't take a pound of flesh from steel, I suppose.
On August 19 2017 15:50 ZigguratOfUr wrote: GSL vs the World went too well. Koreans are trying to show us they can play awful too.
Hath not a Korean hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a Foreigner is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh (except for INnoVation)?
Machines care not for Shylock, it seems. Can't take a pound of flesh from steel, I suppose.
At least against a machine you don't get screwed over by an idiotic quibble about shedding blood or getting the weight wrong by a hair. KeSPA wouldn't countenance such sophistry.
On August 19 2017 15:50 ZigguratOfUr wrote: GSL vs the World went too well. Koreans are trying to show us they can play awful too.
Hath not a Korean hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a Foreigner is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh (except for INnoVation)?
Machines care not for Shylock, it seems. Can't take a pound of flesh from steel, I suppose.
At least against a machine you don't get screwed over by an idiotic quibble about shedding blood or getting the weight wrong by a hair. KeSPA wouldn't countenance such sophistry.
No, you just get a titanium fist in the face. Subtlety is not INnoVation's strong suit.
On August 19 2017 16:46 Durnuu wrote: This is the weirdest phoenix mirror I've ever sen
Yeah, usually one player wins the phoenix battle and the other transitions. This game they lose the battle, but instead double down and triple down on the phoenixes instead and win it back.
On August 19 2017 17:02 Durnuu wrote: Fun fact : sOs is playing later today in SSL challenge, in a PvP again. Against Patience. I expect similar games.
He might show some crazier builds since he is out of SSL anyway.
On August 19 2017 11:00 Diabolique wrote: Go sOs, go for that second place! You do not want to play vs. Innovation, you need Solar to get to the semifinals!
On August 19 2017 13:53 Diabolique wrote: Come sOs, win vs Bunny, loss vs ByuN and finally win vs herO. Then win vs Solar.
On August 19 2017 19:06 Poopi wrote: Oh fuck, is ByuN back as the best?
No.
Well he is still the best player potential wise, but blizzard kept nerfing reapers to avoid a double Blizzcon win ^^. Terrans are trashed left and right recently but ByuN managed to get out of his group first, beating herO, that's pretty impressive!
On August 19 2017 19:06 Poopi wrote: Oh fuck, is ByuN back as the best?
No.
Well he is still the best player potential wise, but blizzard kept nerfing reapers to avoid a double Blizzcon win ^^. Terrans are trashed left and right recently but ByuN managed to get out of his group first, beating herO, that's pretty impressive!
On August 19 2017 19:06 Poopi wrote: Oh fuck, is ByuN back as the best?
No.
Well he is still the best player potential wise, but blizzard kept nerfing reapers to avoid a double Blizzcon win ^^. Terrans are trashed left and right recently but ByuN managed to get out of his group first, beating herO, that's pretty impressive!
Yeah man. I can see it now. Byun is the GOAT.
You are welcome, I'm glad I can enlighten lost souls!
On August 19 2017 21:10 Nebuchad wrote: Glad to see a community-appointed trash korean get to the round of 8 through a pvp win.
sOs? Wasn't he the guy who trashed the infamous matchfixer at Blizzcon? sOs still got potential. LotV makes it harder to remain consistent at high level, we see it even in the foreign scene with all the new zergs tearing it up.
Don't understand why herO just can't seem to beat herO. Are there other significant "rivalries" where one player is just unable to beat another player despite being otherwise much more succesful. Bisu vs Shine ofc but except that?
Bad that somehow, Afreeca does not show the match herO vs. sOs on the VODs. All other VODs were available a few hours after the matches, but not this one. And they are publishing other videos already but not this missing one. https://www.youtube.com/user/AfreecaTV/videos
On August 19 2017 19:06 Poopi wrote: Oh fuck, is ByuN back as the best?
Winning the easiest GSL group doesn't put you anywhere near the best
Since terrans get trashed on, beating a very good protoss and a wild one like sOs when you were a GSL+Blizzcon back to back champion, gives some hope that he is back at being the best in the world. He was last year; why not this year? :o
Quite a lot of people on TL seem to be mad at ByuN because he is liked by the community haha. (edit: and successful, people don't hate just because you are liked)
On August 19 2017 19:06 Poopi wrote: Oh fuck, is ByuN back as the best?
Winning the easiest GSL group doesn't put you anywhere near the best
Since terrans get trashed on, beating a very good protoss and a wild one like sOs when you were a GSL+Blizzcon back to back champion, gives some hope that he is back at being the best in the world. He was last year; why not this year? :o
Quite a lot of people on TL seem to be mad at ByuN because he is liked by the community haha. (edit: and successful, people don't hate just because you are liked)
I like ByuN and all, but he is nowhere near the best in the world, nor even the best Terran. INnoVation holds both of those titles by a clear margin and defeating herO and sOs in the Ro16 (while impressive) barely moves ByuN closer.
And they are successful in SSL Challenge and in GSL ro16 GSL vs The World wasn't KR only, KR T still dominates foreign players (except in Shoutcraft?) and INno is a bit of an anomaly right now, yet he fails like other terrans in some of the tournaments I listed.
Basically, it's a matter of half empty glass vs half full I guess? Like, it's not absurd to say terrans aren't really left behind, but it isn't absurd either to say they are getting trashed, when you see KR terrans lose to foreign players that much... (Shoutcraft Kings)
And they are successful in SSL Challenge and in GSL ro16 GSL vs The World wasn't KR only, KR T still dominates foreign players (except in Shoutcraft?) and INno is a bit of an anomaly right now, yet he fails like other terrans in some of the tournaments I listed.
Basically, it's a matter of half empty glass vs half full I guess? Like, it's not absurd to say terrans aren't really left behind, but it isn't absurd either to say they are getting trashed, when you see KR terrans lose to foreign players that much... (Shoutcraft Kings)
INnoVation has been wrecking shit the whole year. He has been consistently referred to as the best player in the world ever since IEM Gyeonggi, even after getting knocked out of GSL/IEM. He's won three big WCS tournaments plus VSL, and is a legitimate contender for both GOAT and Bonjwa status at his current pace. About the only "bad" thing you could say about him is that he hasn't won every single tournament he's played in, because he was the favorite for just about every single one.
Of course there are more Terrans than Inno out there, but TY/Gumiho/aLive/Maru/ByuN have put on some very strong showings throughout the year as well (just look at the WCS standings which have 4 Terrans in the Top 8). Compare that number of Terrans with correspondingly strong P/Z players and at best there are 3-4 of each compared to 6 Terrans.
Foreign Terrans are a whole different animal, but MajOr and Kelazhur have been doing surprisingly well this year (relatively speaking). I don't think anyone really expects much from foreign Terrans so seeing those two break out was a pleasant surprise. I imagine training in Korea had something to do with it, though.
I wouldn't say Terran is OP or imbalanced (just look at the ~50% winrates), though INnoVation does have a habit of making it look that way. Conversely, the only time this year that Terran was getting trashed was during the Adept/Phoenix era, but since the Adept nerf things have been pretty good balance-wise.
TL:DR: Saying Terran is still getting trashed right now is pretty absurd.
Also, please don't use Shoutcraft Kings as a measurement of balance. That even is literally marketed by TB as "the most unfair SC2 tournament" and the Bo1 online format is just begging for crazy upsets.
I'm not talking about balance, wtf? I'm just saying KR terrans are losing to foreign P/Z (and KR ones as well but that is more acceptable), I'm not seeking reasons to explain why it is like that. I don't give a crap about balance.
About INno being a contender for the GOAT and bonjwa status, lol seriously? I saw people discuss that but I thought they were trolling. He won 80k $ this year. How much did TY won again? Like, it's still the same "promising but disappointing in the end" INno.
Glimpses of dominance, but disappoints in one way or another. The cycle keeps repeating with this player, so I'm not gonna buy into that GOAT / bonjwa crap (edit: not yet, I realize he might approach it but that's gotta take more than sheer potential and form), there is no need to find another GOAT than mvp since only Life came close, but the health issues of mvp and "nice" image put him even more ahead of Life for this status after the matchfixing scandal.
INno is a terran able to consistently remain scary, but he is overrated the same way Bomber is imho. We will start talking about GOAT and stuff if he wins GSL and Blizzcon in a row like ByuN did (but since INno has been better this year than ByuN in early 2016, and the fact that he did well in HotS, INno winning GSL and Blizzcon in a row would make him closer to mvp than ByuN was after that double win)
I was watching these matches last night and then I stopped. After ByuN ezpz'ed his way into the Ro8 I just lost all interest... Group B was definitely the most boring group of them all.
On August 20 2017 08:48 Seeker wrote: I was watching these matches last night and then I stopped. After ByuN ezpz'ed his way into the Ro8 I just lost all interest... Group B was definitely the most boring group of them all.
it was just really sloppy play. like herO was just attacking into the most fortified positions possible and surprise surprise it doesnt work.
it could have been better story wise if Bunny managed to win vs herO (he almost did but threw away the 2nd game). he was destroyed after being eliminated T_T
On August 20 2017 08:46 Poopi wrote: I'm not talking about balance, wtf? I'm just saying KR terrans are losing to foreign P/Z (and KR ones as well but that is more acceptable), I'm not seeking reasons to explain why it is like that. I don't give a crap about balance.
About INno being a contender for the GOAT and bonjwa status, lol seriously? I saw people discuss that but I thought they were trolling. He won 80k $ this year. How much did TY won again? Like, it's still the same "promising but disappointing in the end" INno.
Glimpses of dominance, but disappoints in one way or another. The cycle keeps repeating with this player, so I'm not gonna buy into that GOAT / bonjwa crap (edit: not yet, I realize he might approach it but that's gotta take more than sheer potential and form), there is no need to find another GOAT than mvp since only Life came close, but the health issues of mvp and "nice" image put him even more ahead of Life for this status after the matchfixing scandal.
INno is a terran able to consistently remain scary, but he is overrated the same way Bomber is imho. We will start talking about GOAT and stuff if he wins GSL and Blizzcon in a row like ByuN did (but since INno has been better this year than ByuN in early 2016, and the fact that he did well in HotS, INno winning GSL and Blizzcon in a row would make him closer to mvp than ByuN was after that double win)
I'm not sure how to interpret a statement like "Terrans getting trashed on" in any way that does not pertain to balance, but if your intention was not to balance whine then I guess there's no need to follow that line of thought any further.
Regarding Inno, you seem to be conflating GOAT and Bonjwa. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the greatest quantity/quality of achievements across the entire lifespan of their career. Bonjwa on the other hand is more hazy but is generally used to refer to a player who is overwhelmingly dominant for a protracted length of time. The two are not interchangeable; for example a hypothetical player who won every GSL Code S in one year would be a Bonjwa whereas another hypothetical player who won one GSL Code S per year for ten years would be GOAT.
Mvp would probably be the strongest contender for GOAT at this moment in time, but Life and INnoVation are frequently brought up as contenders. Criteria for GOAT varies widely, but the most common is number/quality of individual tournaments won. Mvp won 3 Starleagues (GSL Code S or equivalent SSL/OSL), plus six weekenders. Life won 2 Starleagues plus eight weekenders. INnoVation has (so far) won 3 Starleagues plus four weekenders. For obvious reasons, Starleagues are worth more than weekenders in terms of prestige, but exactly how much more is highly subjective and therefore subject to considerable disagreement.
Unlike the GOAT, which has multiple contenders, no player has ever laid claim to the title of Bonjwa in SC2. Some people (Wax/Mizenhauer) have declared that there will never be a Bonjwa in SC2 regardless of how dominant a player might be, for a variety of reasons that go beyond the scope of player's form and skill.
INnoVation is a contender for both GOAT and Bonjwa for a couple reasons: 1. If he wins another GSL/SSL he will have more Starleague trophies than anyone else. 2. He's already won one Starleague and two weekenders this year, plus VSL. 3. Most importantly, he's still playing (and currently in amazing form).
If Inno wins SSL+GSL+Blizzcon I would be very confident in making the case that he is both GOAT and the first Bonjwa of SC2. SSL+GSL alone would make him GOAT, but winning Blizzcon on top of that would probably add enough hype/publicity to push him over the edge into Bonjwa status.
Oh, and amount of prize money won has literally absolutely nothing to do with either GOAT or Bonjwa. TY won $200k at WESG by basically winning one Bo7 against Maru. It doesn't mean jack shit for him in terms of boosting him towards GOAT/Bonjwa status. Similarly, regardless of how many fans he has or how much hype surrounds him, ByuN is nowhere near being GOAT or Bonjwa based on his actual achievements.
On August 20 2017 08:46 Poopi wrote: I'm not talking about balance, wtf? I'm just saying KR terrans are losing to foreign P/Z (and KR ones as well but that is more acceptable), I'm not seeking reasons to explain why it is like that. I don't give a crap about balance.
About INno being a contender for the GOAT and bonjwa status, lol seriously? I saw people discuss that but I thought they were trolling. He won 80k $ this year. How much did TY won again? Like, it's still the same "promising but disappointing in the end" INno.
Glimpses of dominance, but disappoints in one way or another. The cycle keeps repeating with this player, so I'm not gonna buy into that GOAT / bonjwa crap (edit: not yet, I realize he might approach it but that's gotta take more than sheer potential and form), there is no need to find another GOAT than mvp since only Life came close, but the health issues of mvp and "nice" image put him even more ahead of Life for this status after the matchfixing scandal.
INno is a terran able to consistently remain scary, but he is overrated the same way Bomber is imho. We will start talking about GOAT and stuff if he wins GSL and Blizzcon in a row like ByuN did (but since INno has been better this year than ByuN in early 2016, and the fact that he did well in HotS, INno winning GSL and Blizzcon in a row would make him closer to mvp than ByuN was after that double win)
I'm not sure how to interpret a statement like "Terrans getting trashed on" in any way that does not pertain to balance, but if your intention was not to balance whine then I guess there's no need to follow that line of thought any further.
Regarding Inno, you seem to be conflating GOAT and Bonjwa. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the greatest quantity/quality of achievements across the entire lifespan of their career. Bonjwa on the other hand is more hazy but is generally used to refer to a player who is overwhelmingly dominant for a protracted length of time. The two are not interchangeable; for example a hypothetical player who won every GSL Code S in one year would be a Bonjwa whereas another hypothetical player who won one GSL Code S per year for ten years would be GOAT.
Mvp would probably be the strongest contender for GOAT at this moment in time, but Life and INnoVation are frequently brought up as contenders. Criteria for GOAT varies widely, but the most common is number/quality of individual tournaments won. Mvp won 3 Starleagues (GSL Code S or equivalent SSL/OSL), plus six weekenders. Life won 2 Starleagues plus eight weekenders. INnoVation has (so far) won 3 Starleagues plus four weekenders. For obvious reasons, Starleagues are worth more than weekenders in terms of prestige, but exactly how much more is highly subjective and therefore subject to considerable disagreement.
Unlike the GOAT, which has multiple contenders, no player has ever laid claim to the title of Bonjwa in SC2. Some people (Wax/Mizenhauer) have declared that there will never be a Bonjwa in SC2 regardless of how dominant a player might be, for a variety of reasons that go beyond the scope of player's form and skill.
INnoVation is a contender for both GOAT and Bonjwa for a couple reasons: 1. If he wins another GSL/SSL he will have more Starleague trophies than anyone else. 2. He's already won one Starleague and two weekenders this year, plus VSL. 3. Most importantly, he's still playing (and currently in amazing form).
If Inno wins SSL+GSL+Blizzcon I would be very confident in making the case that he is both GOAT and the first Bonjwa of SC2. SSL+GSL alone would make him GOAT, but winning Blizzcon on top of that would probably add enough hype/publicity to push him over the edge into Bonjwa status.
Oh, and amount of prize money won has literally absolutely nothing to do with either GOAT or Bonjwa. TY won $200k at WESG by basically winning one Bo7 against Maru. It doesn't mean jack shit for him in terms of boosting him towards GOAT/Bonjwa status. Similarly, regardless of how many fans he has or how much hype surrounds him, ByuN is nowhere near being GOAT or Bonjwa based on his actual achievements.
Mvp won 4 GSL and managed to dominate the other "best in the world" players multiple times.
Your definitions of GOAT and bonjwa are more suited for BW than it is to sc2: prize money is actually important in today esport and that will soon be the main metric we use to judge players. So since INno is playing in an era where prize money is super important, I can safely say that him winning as little prize money compared to TY doesn't help his case.
SSL+GSL+Blizzcon would be a huge achievement but it's REALLY not trivial to do. If he manages to do it, it would have been such a dominant run that he would prevail Mvp, but until then, people better not overhype him.
When you start talking too much about these GOAT thingies, it usually ends badly. edit: oh and about ByuN being nowhere near GOAT or Bonjwa... You realize that if ByuN beats INno at this GSL, proceeds to win it, then wins Blizzcon again, he becomes the GOAT? As long as these tournaments aren't over, we can't really tell who is gonna be the GOAT. If TY manages to win Blizzcon (I don't remember if he is still in the GSL), he would have won so much money in the span of one year that he could be considered a bonjwa, since he dominates money wise.
You don't take into account the evolving side of esports, aka more money brought to the table. It's becoming a real metric these days.
ByuN won't win GSL or probably even qual for Blizzcon, but if he did then he would have to be up there at least I guess
Very few players have won two or more starleagues outside of the WoL era where they had them every few weeks. And sOs is the only guy to win Blizzcon twice
Zest, Inno, Classic, and Maru are the only players to have won multiple starleagues from HoTS onwards. Inno being the only won with three. Although I feel like Dark, TY etc have serious potential to win more than starleague fairly soon
On August 20 2017 08:46 Poopi wrote: I'm not talking about balance, wtf? I'm just saying KR terrans are losing to foreign P/Z (and KR ones as well but that is more acceptable), I'm not seeking reasons to explain why it is like that. I don't give a crap about balance.
About INno being a contender for the GOAT and bonjwa status, lol seriously? I saw people discuss that but I thought they were trolling. He won 80k $ this year. How much did TY won again? Like, it's still the same "promising but disappointing in the end" INno.
Glimpses of dominance, but disappoints in one way or another. The cycle keeps repeating with this player, so I'm not gonna buy into that GOAT / bonjwa crap (edit: not yet, I realize he might approach it but that's gotta take more than sheer potential and form), there is no need to find another GOAT than mvp since only Life came close, but the health issues of mvp and "nice" image put him even more ahead of Life for this status after the matchfixing scandal.
INno is a terran able to consistently remain scary, but he is overrated the same way Bomber is imho. We will start talking about GOAT and stuff if he wins GSL and Blizzcon in a row like ByuN did (but since INno has been better this year than ByuN in early 2016, and the fact that he did well in HotS, INno winning GSL and Blizzcon in a row would make him closer to mvp than ByuN was after that double win)
I'm not sure how to interpret a statement like "Terrans getting trashed on" in any way that does not pertain to balance, but if your intention was not to balance whine then I guess there's no need to follow that line of thought any further.
Regarding Inno, you seem to be conflating GOAT and Bonjwa. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the greatest quantity/quality of achievements across the entire lifespan of their career. Bonjwa on the other hand is more hazy but is generally used to refer to a player who is overwhelmingly dominant for a protracted length of time. The two are not interchangeable; for example a hypothetical player who won every GSL Code S in one year would be a Bonjwa whereas another hypothetical player who won one GSL Code S per year for ten years would be GOAT.
Mvp would probably be the strongest contender for GOAT at this moment in time, but Life and INnoVation are frequently brought up as contenders. Criteria for GOAT varies widely, but the most common is number/quality of individual tournaments won. Mvp won 3 Starleagues (GSL Code S or equivalent SSL/OSL), plus six weekenders. Life won 2 Starleagues plus eight weekenders. INnoVation has (so far) won 3 Starleagues plus four weekenders. For obvious reasons, Starleagues are worth more than weekenders in terms of prestige, but exactly how much more is highly subjective and therefore subject to considerable disagreement.
Unlike the GOAT, which has multiple contenders, no player has ever laid claim to the title of Bonjwa in SC2. Some people (Wax/Mizenhauer) have declared that there will never be a Bonjwa in SC2 regardless of how dominant a player might be, for a variety of reasons that go beyond the scope of player's form and skill.
INnoVation is a contender for both GOAT and Bonjwa for a couple reasons: 1. If he wins another GSL/SSL he will have more Starleague trophies than anyone else. 2. He's already won one Starleague and two weekenders this year, plus VSL. 3. Most importantly, he's still playing (and currently in amazing form).
If Inno wins SSL+GSL+Blizzcon I would be very confident in making the case that he is both GOAT and the first Bonjwa of SC2. SSL+GSL alone would make him GOAT, but winning Blizzcon on top of that would probably add enough hype/publicity to push him over the edge into Bonjwa status.
Oh, and amount of prize money won has literally absolutely nothing to do with either GOAT or Bonjwa. TY won $200k at WESG by basically winning one Bo7 against Maru. It doesn't mean jack shit for him in terms of boosting him towards GOAT/Bonjwa status. Similarly, regardless of how many fans he has or how much hype surrounds him, ByuN is nowhere near being GOAT or Bonjwa based on his actual achievements.
Mvp won 4 GSL and managed to dominate the other "best in the world" players multiple times.
Your definitions of GOAT and bonjwa are more suited for BW than it is to sc2: prize money is actually important in today esport and that will soon be the main metric we use to judge players. So since INno is playing in an era where prize money is super important, I can safely say that him winning as little prize money compared to TY doesn't help his case.
SSL+GSL+Blizzcon would be a huge achievement but it's REALLY not trivial to do. If he manages to do it, it would have been such a dominant run that he would prevail Mvp, but until then, people better not overhype him.
When you start talking too much about these GOAT thingies, it usually ends badly. edit: oh and about ByuN being nowhere near GOAT or Bonjwa... You realize that if ByuN beats INno at this GSL, proceeds to win it, then wins Blizzcon again, he becomes the GOAT? As long as these tournaments aren't over, we can't really tell who is gonna be the GOAT. If TY manages to win Blizzcon (I don't remember if he is still in the GSL), he would have won so much money in the span of one year that he could be considered a bonjwa, since he dominates money wise.
You don't take into account the evolving side of esports, aka more money brought to the table. It's becoming a real metric these days.
What? Prize money won is completely irrelevant when ranking players. WESG gives as much money as winning 4-5 GSLs lol.
On August 20 2017 08:46 Poopi wrote: I'm not talking about balance, wtf? I'm just saying KR terrans are losing to foreign P/Z (and KR ones as well but that is more acceptable), I'm not seeking reasons to explain why it is like that. I don't give a crap about balance.
About INno being a contender for the GOAT and bonjwa status, lol seriously? I saw people discuss that but I thought they were trolling. He won 80k $ this year. How much did TY won again? Like, it's still the same "promising but disappointing in the end" INno.
Glimpses of dominance, but disappoints in one way or another. The cycle keeps repeating with this player, so I'm not gonna buy into that GOAT / bonjwa crap (edit: not yet, I realize he might approach it but that's gotta take more than sheer potential and form), there is no need to find another GOAT than mvp since only Life came close, but the health issues of mvp and "nice" image put him even more ahead of Life for this status after the matchfixing scandal.
INno is a terran able to consistently remain scary, but he is overrated the same way Bomber is imho. We will start talking about GOAT and stuff if he wins GSL and Blizzcon in a row like ByuN did (but since INno has been better this year than ByuN in early 2016, and the fact that he did well in HotS, INno winning GSL and Blizzcon in a row would make him closer to mvp than ByuN was after that double win)
I'm not sure how to interpret a statement like "Terrans getting trashed on" in any way that does not pertain to balance, but if your intention was not to balance whine then I guess there's no need to follow that line of thought any further.
Regarding Inno, you seem to be conflating GOAT and Bonjwa. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the greatest quantity/quality of achievements across the entire lifespan of their career. Bonjwa on the other hand is more hazy but is generally used to refer to a player who is overwhelmingly dominant for a protracted length of time. The two are not interchangeable; for example a hypothetical player who won every GSL Code S in one year would be a Bonjwa whereas another hypothetical player who won one GSL Code S per year for ten years would be GOAT.
Mvp would probably be the strongest contender for GOAT at this moment in time, but Life and INnoVation are frequently brought up as contenders. Criteria for GOAT varies widely, but the most common is number/quality of individual tournaments won. Mvp won 3 Starleagues (GSL Code S or equivalent SSL/OSL), plus six weekenders. Life won 2 Starleagues plus eight weekenders. INnoVation has (so far) won 3 Starleagues plus four weekenders. For obvious reasons, Starleagues are worth more than weekenders in terms of prestige, but exactly how much more is highly subjective and therefore subject to considerable disagreement.
Unlike the GOAT, which has multiple contenders, no player has ever laid claim to the title of Bonjwa in SC2. Some people (Wax/Mizenhauer) have declared that there will never be a Bonjwa in SC2 regardless of how dominant a player might be, for a variety of reasons that go beyond the scope of player's form and skill.
INnoVation is a contender for both GOAT and Bonjwa for a couple reasons: 1. If he wins another GSL/SSL he will have more Starleague trophies than anyone else. 2. He's already won one Starleague and two weekenders this year, plus VSL. 3. Most importantly, he's still playing (and currently in amazing form).
If Inno wins SSL+GSL+Blizzcon I would be very confident in making the case that he is both GOAT and the first Bonjwa of SC2. SSL+GSL alone would make him GOAT, but winning Blizzcon on top of that would probably add enough hype/publicity to push him over the edge into Bonjwa status.
Oh, and amount of prize money won has literally absolutely nothing to do with either GOAT or Bonjwa. TY won $200k at WESG by basically winning one Bo7 against Maru. It doesn't mean jack shit for him in terms of boosting him towards GOAT/Bonjwa status. Similarly, regardless of how many fans he has or how much hype surrounds him, ByuN is nowhere near being GOAT or Bonjwa based on his actual achievements.
Mvp won 4 GSL and managed to dominate the other "best in the world" players multiple times.
Your definitions of GOAT and bonjwa are more suited for BW than it is to sc2: prize money is actually important in today esport and that will soon be the main metric we use to judge players. So since INno is playing in an era where prize money is super important, I can safely say that him winning as little prize money compared to TY doesn't help his case.
SSL+GSL+Blizzcon would be a huge achievement but it's REALLY not trivial to do. If he manages to do it, it would have been such a dominant run that he would prevail Mvp, but until then, people better not overhype him.
When you start talking too much about these GOAT thingies, it usually ends badly. edit: oh and about ByuN being nowhere near GOAT or Bonjwa... You realize that if ByuN beats INno at this GSL, proceeds to win it, then wins Blizzcon again, he becomes the GOAT? As long as these tournaments aren't over, we can't really tell who is gonna be the GOAT. If TY manages to win Blizzcon (I don't remember if he is still in the GSL), he would have won so much money in the span of one year that he could be considered a bonjwa, since he dominates money wise.
You don't take into account the evolving side of esports, aka more money brought to the table. It's becoming a real metric these days.
What? Prize money won is completely irrelevant when ranking players. WESG gives as much money as winning 4-5 GSLs lol.
That's why you have to take it seriously, qualify for it, and win it.
On August 20 2017 08:46 Poopi wrote: I'm not talking about balance, wtf? I'm just saying KR terrans are losing to foreign P/Z (and KR ones as well but that is more acceptable), I'm not seeking reasons to explain why it is like that. I don't give a crap about balance.
About INno being a contender for the GOAT and bonjwa status, lol seriously? I saw people discuss that but I thought they were trolling. He won 80k $ this year. How much did TY won again? Like, it's still the same "promising but disappointing in the end" INno.
Glimpses of dominance, but disappoints in one way or another. The cycle keeps repeating with this player, so I'm not gonna buy into that GOAT / bonjwa crap (edit: not yet, I realize he might approach it but that's gotta take more than sheer potential and form), there is no need to find another GOAT than mvp since only Life came close, but the health issues of mvp and "nice" image put him even more ahead of Life for this status after the matchfixing scandal.
INno is a terran able to consistently remain scary, but he is overrated the same way Bomber is imho. We will start talking about GOAT and stuff if he wins GSL and Blizzcon in a row like ByuN did (but since INno has been better this year than ByuN in early 2016, and the fact that he did well in HotS, INno winning GSL and Blizzcon in a row would make him closer to mvp than ByuN was after that double win)
I'm not sure how to interpret a statement like "Terrans getting trashed on" in any way that does not pertain to balance, but if your intention was not to balance whine then I guess there's no need to follow that line of thought any further.
Regarding Inno, you seem to be conflating GOAT and Bonjwa. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the greatest quantity/quality of achievements across the entire lifespan of their career. Bonjwa on the other hand is more hazy but is generally used to refer to a player who is overwhelmingly dominant for a protracted length of time. The two are not interchangeable; for example a hypothetical player who won every GSL Code S in one year would be a Bonjwa whereas another hypothetical player who won one GSL Code S per year for ten years would be GOAT.
Mvp would probably be the strongest contender for GOAT at this moment in time, but Life and INnoVation are frequently brought up as contenders. Criteria for GOAT varies widely, but the most common is number/quality of individual tournaments won. Mvp won 3 Starleagues (GSL Code S or equivalent SSL/OSL), plus six weekenders. Life won 2 Starleagues plus eight weekenders. INnoVation has (so far) won 3 Starleagues plus four weekenders. For obvious reasons, Starleagues are worth more than weekenders in terms of prestige, but exactly how much more is highly subjective and therefore subject to considerable disagreement.
Unlike the GOAT, which has multiple contenders, no player has ever laid claim to the title of Bonjwa in SC2. Some people (Wax/Mizenhauer) have declared that there will never be a Bonjwa in SC2 regardless of how dominant a player might be, for a variety of reasons that go beyond the scope of player's form and skill.
INnoVation is a contender for both GOAT and Bonjwa for a couple reasons: 1. If he wins another GSL/SSL he will have more Starleague trophies than anyone else. 2. He's already won one Starleague and two weekenders this year, plus VSL. 3. Most importantly, he's still playing (and currently in amazing form).
If Inno wins SSL+GSL+Blizzcon I would be very confident in making the case that he is both GOAT and the first Bonjwa of SC2. SSL+GSL alone would make him GOAT, but winning Blizzcon on top of that would probably add enough hype/publicity to push him over the edge into Bonjwa status.
Oh, and amount of prize money won has literally absolutely nothing to do with either GOAT or Bonjwa. TY won $200k at WESG by basically winning one Bo7 against Maru. It doesn't mean jack shit for him in terms of boosting him towards GOAT/Bonjwa status. Similarly, regardless of how many fans he has or how much hype surrounds him, ByuN is nowhere near being GOAT or Bonjwa based on his actual achievements.
Mvp won 4 GSL and managed to dominate the other "best in the world" players multiple times.
Your definitions of GOAT and bonjwa are more suited for BW than it is to sc2: prize money is actually important in today esport and that will soon be the main metric we use to judge players. So since INno is playing in an era where prize money is super important, I can safely say that him winning as little prize money compared to TY doesn't help his case.
SSL+GSL+Blizzcon would be a huge achievement but it's REALLY not trivial to do. If he manages to do it, it would have been such a dominant run that he would prevail Mvp, but until then, people better not overhype him.
When you start talking too much about these GOAT thingies, it usually ends badly. edit: oh and about ByuN being nowhere near GOAT or Bonjwa... You realize that if ByuN beats INno at this GSL, proceeds to win it, then wins Blizzcon again, he becomes the GOAT? As long as these tournaments aren't over, we can't really tell who is gonna be the GOAT. If TY manages to win Blizzcon (I don't remember if he is still in the GSL), he would have won so much money in the span of one year that he could be considered a bonjwa, since he dominates money wise.
You don't take into account the evolving side of esports, aka more money brought to the table. It's becoming a real metric these days.
What? Prize money won is completely irrelevant when ranking players. WESG gives as much money as winning 4-5 GSLs lol.
That's why you have to take it seriously, qualify for it, and win it.
On August 20 2017 08:46 Poopi wrote: I'm not talking about balance, wtf? I'm just saying KR terrans are losing to foreign P/Z (and KR ones as well but that is more acceptable), I'm not seeking reasons to explain why it is like that. I don't give a crap about balance.
About INno being a contender for the GOAT and bonjwa status, lol seriously? I saw people discuss that but I thought they were trolling. He won 80k $ this year. How much did TY won again? Like, it's still the same "promising but disappointing in the end" INno.
Glimpses of dominance, but disappoints in one way or another. The cycle keeps repeating with this player, so I'm not gonna buy into that GOAT / bonjwa crap (edit: not yet, I realize he might approach it but that's gotta take more than sheer potential and form), there is no need to find another GOAT than mvp since only Life came close, but the health issues of mvp and "nice" image put him even more ahead of Life for this status after the matchfixing scandal.
INno is a terran able to consistently remain scary, but he is overrated the same way Bomber is imho. We will start talking about GOAT and stuff if he wins GSL and Blizzcon in a row like ByuN did (but since INno has been better this year than ByuN in early 2016, and the fact that he did well in HotS, INno winning GSL and Blizzcon in a row would make him closer to mvp than ByuN was after that double win)
I'm not sure how to interpret a statement like "Terrans getting trashed on" in any way that does not pertain to balance, but if your intention was not to balance whine then I guess there's no need to follow that line of thought any further.
Regarding Inno, you seem to be conflating GOAT and Bonjwa. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the greatest quantity/quality of achievements across the entire lifespan of their career. Bonjwa on the other hand is more hazy but is generally used to refer to a player who is overwhelmingly dominant for a protracted length of time. The two are not interchangeable; for example a hypothetical player who won every GSL Code S in one year would be a Bonjwa whereas another hypothetical player who won one GSL Code S per year for ten years would be GOAT.
Mvp would probably be the strongest contender for GOAT at this moment in time, but Life and INnoVation are frequently brought up as contenders. Criteria for GOAT varies widely, but the most common is number/quality of individual tournaments won. Mvp won 3 Starleagues (GSL Code S or equivalent SSL/OSL), plus six weekenders. Life won 2 Starleagues plus eight weekenders. INnoVation has (so far) won 3 Starleagues plus four weekenders. For obvious reasons, Starleagues are worth more than weekenders in terms of prestige, but exactly how much more is highly subjective and therefore subject to considerable disagreement.
Unlike the GOAT, which has multiple contenders, no player has ever laid claim to the title of Bonjwa in SC2. Some people (Wax/Mizenhauer) have declared that there will never be a Bonjwa in SC2 regardless of how dominant a player might be, for a variety of reasons that go beyond the scope of player's form and skill.
INnoVation is a contender for both GOAT and Bonjwa for a couple reasons: 1. If he wins another GSL/SSL he will have more Starleague trophies than anyone else. 2. He's already won one Starleague and two weekenders this year, plus VSL. 3. Most importantly, he's still playing (and currently in amazing form).
If Inno wins SSL+GSL+Blizzcon I would be very confident in making the case that he is both GOAT and the first Bonjwa of SC2. SSL+GSL alone would make him GOAT, but winning Blizzcon on top of that would probably add enough hype/publicity to push him over the edge into Bonjwa status.
Oh, and amount of prize money won has literally absolutely nothing to do with either GOAT or Bonjwa. TY won $200k at WESG by basically winning one Bo7 against Maru. It doesn't mean jack shit for him in terms of boosting him towards GOAT/Bonjwa status. Similarly, regardless of how many fans he has or how much hype surrounds him, ByuN is nowhere near being GOAT or Bonjwa based on his actual achievements.
Mvp won 4 GSL and managed to dominate the other "best in the world" players multiple times.
Your definitions of GOAT and bonjwa are more suited for BW than it is to sc2: prize money is actually important in today esport and that will soon be the main metric we use to judge players. So since INno is playing in an era where prize money is super important, I can safely say that him winning as little prize money compared to TY doesn't help his case.
SSL+GSL+Blizzcon would be a huge achievement but it's REALLY not trivial to do. If he manages to do it, it would have been such a dominant run that he would prevail Mvp, but until then, people better not overhype him.
When you start talking too much about these GOAT thingies, it usually ends badly. edit: oh and about ByuN being nowhere near GOAT or Bonjwa... You realize that if ByuN beats INno at this GSL, proceeds to win it, then wins Blizzcon again, he becomes the GOAT? As long as these tournaments aren't over, we can't really tell who is gonna be the GOAT. If TY manages to win Blizzcon (I don't remember if he is still in the GSL), he would have won so much money in the span of one year that he could be considered a bonjwa, since he dominates money wise.
You don't take into account the evolving side of esports, aka more money brought to the table. It's becoming a real metric these days.
What? Prize money won is completely irrelevant when ranking players. WESG gives as much money as winning 4-5 GSLs lol.
That's why you have to take it seriously, qualify for it, and win it.
and then you have won the equivalent of 4 GSLs?
Money wise, yes? It's not like you won 4 GSL (there aren't that much GSL in one year). But it's an important event so you better be ready for it.
On August 20 2017 08:46 Poopi wrote: I'm not talking about balance, wtf? I'm just saying KR terrans are losing to foreign P/Z (and KR ones as well but that is more acceptable), I'm not seeking reasons to explain why it is like that. I don't give a crap about balance.
About INno being a contender for the GOAT and bonjwa status, lol seriously? I saw people discuss that but I thought they were trolling. He won 80k $ this year. How much did TY won again? Like, it's still the same "promising but disappointing in the end" INno.
Glimpses of dominance, but disappoints in one way or another. The cycle keeps repeating with this player, so I'm not gonna buy into that GOAT / bonjwa crap (edit: not yet, I realize he might approach it but that's gotta take more than sheer potential and form), there is no need to find another GOAT than mvp since only Life came close, but the health issues of mvp and "nice" image put him even more ahead of Life for this status after the matchfixing scandal.
INno is a terran able to consistently remain scary, but he is overrated the same way Bomber is imho. We will start talking about GOAT and stuff if he wins GSL and Blizzcon in a row like ByuN did (but since INno has been better this year than ByuN in early 2016, and the fact that he did well in HotS, INno winning GSL and Blizzcon in a row would make him closer to mvp than ByuN was after that double win)
I'm not sure how to interpret a statement like "Terrans getting trashed on" in any way that does not pertain to balance, but if your intention was not to balance whine then I guess there's no need to follow that line of thought any further.
Regarding Inno, you seem to be conflating GOAT and Bonjwa. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the greatest quantity/quality of achievements across the entire lifespan of their career. Bonjwa on the other hand is more hazy but is generally used to refer to a player who is overwhelmingly dominant for a protracted length of time. The two are not interchangeable; for example a hypothetical player who won every GSL Code S in one year would be a Bonjwa whereas another hypothetical player who won one GSL Code S per year for ten years would be GOAT.
Mvp would probably be the strongest contender for GOAT at this moment in time, but Life and INnoVation are frequently brought up as contenders. Criteria for GOAT varies widely, but the most common is number/quality of individual tournaments won. Mvp won 3 Starleagues (GSL Code S or equivalent SSL/OSL), plus six weekenders. Life won 2 Starleagues plus eight weekenders. INnoVation has (so far) won 3 Starleagues plus four weekenders. For obvious reasons, Starleagues are worth more than weekenders in terms of prestige, but exactly how much more is highly subjective and therefore subject to considerable disagreement.
Unlike the GOAT, which has multiple contenders, no player has ever laid claim to the title of Bonjwa in SC2. Some people (Wax/Mizenhauer) have declared that there will never be a Bonjwa in SC2 regardless of how dominant a player might be, for a variety of reasons that go beyond the scope of player's form and skill.
INnoVation is a contender for both GOAT and Bonjwa for a couple reasons: 1. If he wins another GSL/SSL he will have more Starleague trophies than anyone else. 2. He's already won one Starleague and two weekenders this year, plus VSL. 3. Most importantly, he's still playing (and currently in amazing form).
If Inno wins SSL+GSL+Blizzcon I would be very confident in making the case that he is both GOAT and the first Bonjwa of SC2. SSL+GSL alone would make him GOAT, but winning Blizzcon on top of that would probably add enough hype/publicity to push him over the edge into Bonjwa status.
Oh, and amount of prize money won has literally absolutely nothing to do with either GOAT or Bonjwa. TY won $200k at WESG by basically winning one Bo7 against Maru. It doesn't mean jack shit for him in terms of boosting him towards GOAT/Bonjwa status. Similarly, regardless of how many fans he has or how much hype surrounds him, ByuN is nowhere near being GOAT or Bonjwa based on his actual achievements.
Mvp won 4 GSL and managed to dominate the other "best in the world" players multiple times.
Your definitions of GOAT and bonjwa are more suited for BW than it is to sc2: prize money is actually important in today esport and that will soon be the main metric we use to judge players. So since INno is playing in an era where prize money is super important, I can safely say that him winning as little prize money compared to TY doesn't help his case.
SSL+GSL+Blizzcon would be a huge achievement but it's REALLY not trivial to do. If he manages to do it, it would have been such a dominant run that he would prevail Mvp, but until then, people better not overhype him.
When you start talking too much about these GOAT thingies, it usually ends badly. edit: oh and about ByuN being nowhere near GOAT or Bonjwa... You realize that if ByuN beats INno at this GSL, proceeds to win it, then wins Blizzcon again, he becomes the GOAT? As long as these tournaments aren't over, we can't really tell who is gonna be the GOAT. If TY manages to win Blizzcon (I don't remember if he is still in the GSL), he would have won so much money in the span of one year that he could be considered a bonjwa, since he dominates money wise.
You don't take into account the evolving side of esports, aka more money brought to the table. It's becoming a real metric these days.
What? Prize money won is completely irrelevant when ranking players. WESG gives as much money as winning 4-5 GSLs lol.
That's why you have to take it seriously, qualify for it, and win it.
and then you have won the equivalent of 4 GSLs?
Money wise, yes? It's not like you won 4 GSL (there aren't that much GSL in one year). But it's an important event so you better be ready for it.
WESG was a total joke of a tournament. TY stumbled through inferior competition before scraping by against a player who was probably better than him that weekend. If that's what TY's legacy is built on, it's a rather shoddy foundation.
On August 20 2017 08:46 Poopi wrote: I'm not talking about balance, wtf? I'm just saying KR terrans are losing to foreign P/Z (and KR ones as well but that is more acceptable), I'm not seeking reasons to explain why it is like that. I don't give a crap about balance.
About INno being a contender for the GOAT and bonjwa status, lol seriously? I saw people discuss that but I thought they were trolling. He won 80k $ this year. How much did TY won again? Like, it's still the same "promising but disappointing in the end" INno.
Glimpses of dominance, but disappoints in one way or another. The cycle keeps repeating with this player, so I'm not gonna buy into that GOAT / bonjwa crap (edit: not yet, I realize he might approach it but that's gotta take more than sheer potential and form), there is no need to find another GOAT than mvp since only Life came close, but the health issues of mvp and "nice" image put him even more ahead of Life for this status after the matchfixing scandal.
INno is a terran able to consistently remain scary, but he is overrated the same way Bomber is imho. We will start talking about GOAT and stuff if he wins GSL and Blizzcon in a row like ByuN did (but since INno has been better this year than ByuN in early 2016, and the fact that he did well in HotS, INno winning GSL and Blizzcon in a row would make him closer to mvp than ByuN was after that double win)
I'm not sure how to interpret a statement like "Terrans getting trashed on" in any way that does not pertain to balance, but if your intention was not to balance whine then I guess there's no need to follow that line of thought any further.
Regarding Inno, you seem to be conflating GOAT and Bonjwa. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the greatest quantity/quality of achievements across the entire lifespan of their career. Bonjwa on the other hand is more hazy but is generally used to refer to a player who is overwhelmingly dominant for a protracted length of time. The two are not interchangeable; for example a hypothetical player who won every GSL Code S in one year would be a Bonjwa whereas another hypothetical player who won one GSL Code S per year for ten years would be GOAT.
Mvp would probably be the strongest contender for GOAT at this moment in time, but Life and INnoVation are frequently brought up as contenders. Criteria for GOAT varies widely, but the most common is number/quality of individual tournaments won. Mvp won 3 Starleagues (GSL Code S or equivalent SSL/OSL), plus six weekenders. Life won 2 Starleagues plus eight weekenders. INnoVation has (so far) won 3 Starleagues plus four weekenders. For obvious reasons, Starleagues are worth more than weekenders in terms of prestige, but exactly how much more is highly subjective and therefore subject to considerable disagreement.
Unlike the GOAT, which has multiple contenders, no player has ever laid claim to the title of Bonjwa in SC2. Some people (Wax/Mizenhauer) have declared that there will never be a Bonjwa in SC2 regardless of how dominant a player might be, for a variety of reasons that go beyond the scope of player's form and skill.
INnoVation is a contender for both GOAT and Bonjwa for a couple reasons: 1. If he wins another GSL/SSL he will have more Starleague trophies than anyone else. 2. He's already won one Starleague and two weekenders this year, plus VSL. 3. Most importantly, he's still playing (and currently in amazing form).
If Inno wins SSL+GSL+Blizzcon I would be very confident in making the case that he is both GOAT and the first Bonjwa of SC2. SSL+GSL alone would make him GOAT, but winning Blizzcon on top of that would probably add enough hype/publicity to push him over the edge into Bonjwa status.
Oh, and amount of prize money won has literally absolutely nothing to do with either GOAT or Bonjwa. TY won $200k at WESG by basically winning one Bo7 against Maru. It doesn't mean jack shit for him in terms of boosting him towards GOAT/Bonjwa status. Similarly, regardless of how many fans he has or how much hype surrounds him, ByuN is nowhere near being GOAT or Bonjwa based on his actual achievements.
Mvp won 4 GSL and managed to dominate the other "best in the world" players multiple times.
Your definitions of GOAT and bonjwa are more suited for BW than it is to sc2: prize money is actually important in today esport and that will soon be the main metric we use to judge players. So since INno is playing in an era where prize money is super important, I can safely say that him winning as little prize money compared to TY doesn't help his case.
SSL+GSL+Blizzcon would be a huge achievement but it's REALLY not trivial to do. If he manages to do it, it would have been such a dominant run that he would prevail Mvp, but until then, people better not overhype him.
When you start talking too much about these GOAT thingies, it usually ends badly. edit: oh and about ByuN being nowhere near GOAT or Bonjwa... You realize that if ByuN beats INno at this GSL, proceeds to win it, then wins Blizzcon again, he becomes the GOAT? As long as these tournaments aren't over, we can't really tell who is gonna be the GOAT. If TY manages to win Blizzcon (I don't remember if he is still in the GSL), he would have won so much money in the span of one year that he could be considered a bonjwa, since he dominates money wise.
You don't take into account the evolving side of esports, aka more money brought to the table. It's becoming a real metric these days.
What? Prize money won is completely irrelevant when ranking players. WESG gives as much money as winning 4-5 GSLs lol.
That's why you have to take it seriously, qualify for it, and win it.
and then you have won the equivalent of 4 GSLs?
Money wise, yes? It's not like you won 4 GSL (there aren't that much GSL in one year). But it's an important event so you better be ready for it.
WESG was a total joke of a tournament. TY stumbled through inferior competition before scraping by against a player who was probably better than him that weekend. If that's what TY's legacy is built on, it's a rather shoddy foundation.
There were top foreigners against him. If everytime someone wins you consider their opponents inferior competition, and that when you barely beat a player that player is better than you? What does it even mean?
Should we count 1 less GSL win to all the players that won against soO, because that man just can't win a fucking GSL?
TY won WESG and IEM as well as placing decently in other tournaments, that's a good year for him.
On August 20 2017 08:46 Poopi wrote: I'm not talking about balance, wtf? I'm just saying KR terrans are losing to foreign P/Z (and KR ones as well but that is more acceptable), I'm not seeking reasons to explain why it is like that. I don't give a crap about balance.
About INno being a contender for the GOAT and bonjwa status, lol seriously? I saw people discuss that but I thought they were trolling. He won 80k $ this year. How much did TY won again? Like, it's still the same "promising but disappointing in the end" INno.
Glimpses of dominance, but disappoints in one way or another. The cycle keeps repeating with this player, so I'm not gonna buy into that GOAT / bonjwa crap (edit: not yet, I realize he might approach it but that's gotta take more than sheer potential and form), there is no need to find another GOAT than mvp since only Life came close, but the health issues of mvp and "nice" image put him even more ahead of Life for this status after the matchfixing scandal.
INno is a terran able to consistently remain scary, but he is overrated the same way Bomber is imho. We will start talking about GOAT and stuff if he wins GSL and Blizzcon in a row like ByuN did (but since INno has been better this year than ByuN in early 2016, and the fact that he did well in HotS, INno winning GSL and Blizzcon in a row would make him closer to mvp than ByuN was after that double win)
I'm not sure how to interpret a statement like "Terrans getting trashed on" in any way that does not pertain to balance, but if your intention was not to balance whine then I guess there's no need to follow that line of thought any further.
Regarding Inno, you seem to be conflating GOAT and Bonjwa. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the greatest quantity/quality of achievements across the entire lifespan of their career. Bonjwa on the other hand is more hazy but is generally used to refer to a player who is overwhelmingly dominant for a protracted length of time. The two are not interchangeable; for example a hypothetical player who won every GSL Code S in one year would be a Bonjwa whereas another hypothetical player who won one GSL Code S per year for ten years would be GOAT.
Mvp would probably be the strongest contender for GOAT at this moment in time, but Life and INnoVation are frequently brought up as contenders. Criteria for GOAT varies widely, but the most common is number/quality of individual tournaments won. Mvp won 3 Starleagues (GSL Code S or equivalent SSL/OSL), plus six weekenders. Life won 2 Starleagues plus eight weekenders. INnoVation has (so far) won 3 Starleagues plus four weekenders. For obvious reasons, Starleagues are worth more than weekenders in terms of prestige, but exactly how much more is highly subjective and therefore subject to considerable disagreement.
Unlike the GOAT, which has multiple contenders, no player has ever laid claim to the title of Bonjwa in SC2. Some people (Wax/Mizenhauer) have declared that there will never be a Bonjwa in SC2 regardless of how dominant a player might be, for a variety of reasons that go beyond the scope of player's form and skill.
INnoVation is a contender for both GOAT and Bonjwa for a couple reasons: 1. If he wins another GSL/SSL he will have more Starleague trophies than anyone else. 2. He's already won one Starleague and two weekenders this year, plus VSL. 3. Most importantly, he's still playing (and currently in amazing form).
If Inno wins SSL+GSL+Blizzcon I would be very confident in making the case that he is both GOAT and the first Bonjwa of SC2. SSL+GSL alone would make him GOAT, but winning Blizzcon on top of that would probably add enough hype/publicity to push him over the edge into Bonjwa status.
Oh, and amount of prize money won has literally absolutely nothing to do with either GOAT or Bonjwa. TY won $200k at WESG by basically winning one Bo7 against Maru. It doesn't mean jack shit for him in terms of boosting him towards GOAT/Bonjwa status. Similarly, regardless of how many fans he has or how much hype surrounds him, ByuN is nowhere near being GOAT or Bonjwa based on his actual achievements.
Mvp won 4 GSL and managed to dominate the other "best in the world" players multiple times.
Your definitions of GOAT and bonjwa are more suited for BW than it is to sc2: prize money is actually important in today esport and that will soon be the main metric we use to judge players. So since INno is playing in an era where prize money is super important, I can safely say that him winning as little prize money compared to TY doesn't help his case.
SSL+GSL+Blizzcon would be a huge achievement but it's REALLY not trivial to do. If he manages to do it, it would have been such a dominant run that he would prevail Mvp, but until then, people better not overhype him.
When you start talking too much about these GOAT thingies, it usually ends badly. edit: oh and about ByuN being nowhere near GOAT or Bonjwa... You realize that if ByuN beats INno at this GSL, proceeds to win it, then wins Blizzcon again, he becomes the GOAT? As long as these tournaments aren't over, we can't really tell who is gonna be the GOAT. If TY manages to win Blizzcon (I don't remember if he is still in the GSL), he would have won so much money in the span of one year that he could be considered a bonjwa, since he dominates money wise.
You don't take into account the evolving side of esports, aka more money brought to the table. It's becoming a real metric these days.
What? Prize money won is completely irrelevant when ranking players. WESG gives as much money as winning 4-5 GSLs lol.
That's why you have to take it seriously, qualify for it, and win it.
and then you have won the equivalent of 4 GSLs?
Money wise, yes? It's not like you won 4 GSL (there aren't that much GSL in one year). But it's an important event so you better be ready for it.
Money has nothing to do when it comes to considering GOAT, but the qualities of the titles do. WESG has a prize pool of 5 GSLs combine but in terms of recognition, it's not even close to 1 GSL and i'm not gonna argueing that with you in case you disagree.
On August 20 2017 08:46 Poopi wrote: I'm not talking about balance, wtf? I'm just saying KR terrans are losing to foreign P/Z (and KR ones as well but that is more acceptable), I'm not seeking reasons to explain why it is like that. I don't give a crap about balance.
About INno being a contender for the GOAT and bonjwa status, lol seriously? I saw people discuss that but I thought they were trolling. He won 80k $ this year. How much did TY won again? Like, it's still the same "promising but disappointing in the end" INno.
Glimpses of dominance, but disappoints in one way or another. The cycle keeps repeating with this player, so I'm not gonna buy into that GOAT / bonjwa crap (edit: not yet, I realize he might approach it but that's gotta take more than sheer potential and form), there is no need to find another GOAT than mvp since only Life came close, but the health issues of mvp and "nice" image put him even more ahead of Life for this status after the matchfixing scandal.
INno is a terran able to consistently remain scary, but he is overrated the same way Bomber is imho. We will start talking about GOAT and stuff if he wins GSL and Blizzcon in a row like ByuN did (but since INno has been better this year than ByuN in early 2016, and the fact that he did well in HotS, INno winning GSL and Blizzcon in a row would make him closer to mvp than ByuN was after that double win)
I'm not sure how to interpret a statement like "Terrans getting trashed on" in any way that does not pertain to balance, but if your intention was not to balance whine then I guess there's no need to follow that line of thought any further.
Regarding Inno, you seem to be conflating GOAT and Bonjwa. GOAT is a title awarded to the player with the greatest quantity/quality of achievements across the entire lifespan of their career. Bonjwa on the other hand is more hazy but is generally used to refer to a player who is overwhelmingly dominant for a protracted length of time. The two are not interchangeable; for example a hypothetical player who won every GSL Code S in one year would be a Bonjwa whereas another hypothetical player who won one GSL Code S per year for ten years would be GOAT.
Mvp would probably be the strongest contender for GOAT at this moment in time, but Life and INnoVation are frequently brought up as contenders. Criteria for GOAT varies widely, but the most common is number/quality of individual tournaments won. Mvp won 3 Starleagues (GSL Code S or equivalent SSL/OSL), plus six weekenders. Life won 2 Starleagues plus eight weekenders. INnoVation has (so far) won 3 Starleagues plus four weekenders. For obvious reasons, Starleagues are worth more than weekenders in terms of prestige, but exactly how much more is highly subjective and therefore subject to considerable disagreement.
Unlike the GOAT, which has multiple contenders, no player has ever laid claim to the title of Bonjwa in SC2. Some people (Wax/Mizenhauer) have declared that there will never be a Bonjwa in SC2 regardless of how dominant a player might be, for a variety of reasons that go beyond the scope of player's form and skill.
INnoVation is a contender for both GOAT and Bonjwa for a couple reasons: 1. If he wins another GSL/SSL he will have more Starleague trophies than anyone else. 2. He's already won one Starleague and two weekenders this year, plus VSL. 3. Most importantly, he's still playing (and currently in amazing form).
If Inno wins SSL+GSL+Blizzcon I would be very confident in making the case that he is both GOAT and the first Bonjwa of SC2. SSL+GSL alone would make him GOAT, but winning Blizzcon on top of that would probably add enough hype/publicity to push him over the edge into Bonjwa status.
Oh, and amount of prize money won has literally absolutely nothing to do with either GOAT or Bonjwa. TY won $200k at WESG by basically winning one Bo7 against Maru. It doesn't mean jack shit for him in terms of boosting him towards GOAT/Bonjwa status. Similarly, regardless of how many fans he has or how much hype surrounds him, ByuN is nowhere near being GOAT or Bonjwa based on his actual achievements.
Mvp won 4 GSL and managed to dominate the other "best in the world" players multiple times.
Your definitions of GOAT and bonjwa are more suited for BW than it is to sc2: prize money is actually important in today esport and that will soon be the main metric we use to judge players. So since INno is playing in an era where prize money is super important, I can safely say that him winning as little prize money compared to TY doesn't help his case.
SSL+GSL+Blizzcon would be a huge achievement but it's REALLY not trivial to do. If he manages to do it, it would have been such a dominant run that he would prevail Mvp, but until then, people better not overhype him.
When you start talking too much about these GOAT thingies, it usually ends badly. edit: oh and about ByuN being nowhere near GOAT or Bonjwa... You realize that if ByuN beats INno at this GSL, proceeds to win it, then wins Blizzcon again, he becomes the GOAT? As long as these tournaments aren't over, we can't really tell who is gonna be the GOAT. If TY manages to win Blizzcon (I don't remember if he is still in the GSL), he would have won so much money in the span of one year that he could be considered a bonjwa, since he dominates money wise.
You don't take into account the evolving side of esports, aka more money brought to the table. It's becoming a real metric these days.
From your response (and the responses of others) it seems as though you simply have different criteria for evaluating GOAT/Bonjwa than many others do (including myself). That being the case, there really isn't any point in discussing anything since we are measuring different things.
EPT
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