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On June 29 2015 12:07 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 09:10 SNSeigifried wrote:
Here is your top 16 players atm with only points from wcs/gsl/ssl. Enjoy!!!
1. Life 3900
2. Maru 3750
3. Dream 3550
4. Hydra 3350
5. Polt 2950
6. herO 2950
7. Classic 2650
8. Rain 2450
9. PartinG 2350
10. Stats 2100
11. ByuL 2000
12. Rogue 2000
13. Bunny 1850
14. Lilbow 1350
15. TLO 1250
16. Dear 1200
WCS system is so flawed still... No way should any foreigner be in the top 16 aside from Polt and Hydra. But you guys said Polt played like Prime so that isn't a good sign. Guess he'll need to go back to Korea to actually stand a chance against good Koreans?
Well I mean what he posted isn't the actual top16, so the system is not that flawed. And I don't think Polt's games vs Hydra are indicative of him being bad, it's just more Hydra being on a whole other level, and Polt being not that good at TvZ anyways. I mean in last season's finals he almost got wrecked too before he resorted to Tactical Genius by Marauder-Hellioning Hydra.
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On June 29 2015 14:59 Silvanel wrote:
I saw Mana posting on his fb page that WCS will be in Poland. Any source on this? Where i can read some details?
I have no written source, but I remember InControll saying next WCS finals will be in Poland during yesterday's stream. I think it was during a break between matches in the grand final. He did not mention a specific city, but we might guess Katowice, right ?
About Bunny and WCS system: I think awarded points are fine. He got twice in Ro4, but Ro4 is only top 12 if we consider only the WCS events (SSL, GSL, WCS). If we compare it to tennis players, I don't think being top 12 in Grand Chelem tournaments results alone (and that's assuming Bunny gets to Ro4 in season 3 for the comparison) and doing nothing in other ATP events will garantee you a top 16 position in ATP rankings.
He needs to win a WCS tournament, or a premier non WCS tournament to earn his top 16 spot. Last year, all top 16 had tournament under their belt or several silvers like only Dream can achieve this year :-)
EDIT: look, Bunny is above sOs in WCS rankings. sOs made to Ro4 once in a WCS tournament, but he won a Hot6Cup too. He deserves a spot as much as Bunny.
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I would have guessed Katowice also but Mana mentioned Kraków (Cracow). Kinda unexpected.
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It seems like in terms of countries, Blizzard wants to go where the crowds are proven to be excited for the game.
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I don't really understand you guys, and I have mixed feelings on that discussion about WCS being a bad system.
But I guess it all depends on what you want from BC.
First I see your points, BC should be played by top 16 players, so in the end no one playing outside of korea should make it, maybe one exception is allowed.
Second, I don't think that's the goal of BC. It's like in any sport world cup, you have region qualifiers, and then the strong beat the weak. It allows to have a regionnal champion to support. But not just that.
Indeed, what would happen if wcs system was changed to met the "only top 16 player make it to BC" ? Progamers would not have that incentive to go to big tournaments unless they're invited. Progamers would probably train much less, and the WCS would be so bad that no one would watch it. Then it's the end of SC2 outside of korea, and as SC2 is much more supported by foreigners than it was for BW, the game really ends up dieing.
I don't see how a more selective system would make Foreigners better.
Also, everyone laugh at a TLO-Maru match. Maybe TLO is not the good example here, cause however good he is for the foreign scene, I don't see him getting much better. But replace TLO by Lilbow, Harstem or even why not Gungfubanda if they were to win last season. They're young, they can improve a lot. Playing against the top korean can be hard to see from outside, cause it most probably will be one sided games, but it will be a really good experience for the players. And maybe one of them can shine. It's in the hardest condition that you see true champion rise, not in secondary tournaments (as WCS is now).
In that sens, I really liked the first version of WCS when there was a season final. Korean beated foreigners, but still we cheered for them and they learned a lot I guess.
So all in all, I really think that BC is fine right now. Mainly koreans, and if a foreigner makes it, it means that he had performed really well during the all year and probably deserves a spot.
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On June 29 2015 16:38 Silvanel wrote:
I would have guessed Katowice also but Mana mentioned Kraków (Cracow). Kinda unexpected.
It was revealed at the end of apollos interview with david kim (right before the grand final). Season 3 final is in krakow.
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I think I'm in the minority but I just couldn't get excited about the whole thing once Bunny beat SD. I knew at that point whoever won out of Hydra/Polt wins. As much as I understand the need for Foreign players it doesn't make for the best stuff. Seriously can we unlock the regions again yet?
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On June 29 2015 18:44 showstealer1829 wrote:
I think I'm in the minority but I just couldn't get excited about the whole thing once Bunny beat SD. I knew at that point whoever won out of Hydra/Polt wins. As much as I understand the need for Foreign players it doesn't make for the best stuff. Seriously can we unlock the regions again yet?
Lilbow and Bunny both could have beaten Polt.
hydra was unbeatable for any foreigner that's cause he is on a completely different level.
Also what should unlock the regions do? No one watched WCS NA and I am sure everyone agrees that Lilbow vs hydra is tons more exciting than Stardust vs MC
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On June 29 2015 18:47 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 18:44 showstealer1829 wrote:
I think I'm in the minority but I just couldn't get excited about the whole thing once Bunny beat SD. I knew at that point whoever won out of Hydra/Polt wins. As much as I understand the need for Foreign players it doesn't make for the best stuff. Seriously can we unlock the regions again yet? Lilbow and Bunny both could have beaten Polt. hydra was unbeatable for any foreigner that's cause he is on a completely different level. Also what should unlock the regions do? No one watched WCS NA and I am sure everyone agrees that Lilbow vs hydra is tons more exciting than Stardust vs MC
Everyone doesn't include me. i left the stream run but i didn't watch Lilbow vs hydra. Would have watched Stardust vs MC.
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On June 29 2015 18:44 showstealer1829 wrote:
I think I'm in the minority but I just couldn't get excited about the whole thing once Bunny beat SD. I knew at that point whoever won out of Hydra/Polt wins. As much as I understand the need for Foreign players it doesn't make for the best stuff. Seriously can we unlock the regions again yet?
You already got 2 leagues filled with Koreans. What's the point in having another one? How about you just watch those and leave WCS to the people who do enjoy it.
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i'm pretty sure that Hydra would perform well at GSL. Playing WCS doesn't mean you suck.
Lilbow is the real foreign hope , he's young , inventive , very agressive and clever. Bunny is also a good player but i don't see him having the same potential (also not playing the same race, this has to be said ...)
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On June 29 2015 19:47 Thax wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 18:44 showstealer1829 wrote:
I think I'm in the minority but I just couldn't get excited about the whole thing once Bunny beat SD. I knew at that point whoever won out of Hydra/Polt wins. As much as I understand the need for Foreign players it doesn't make for the best stuff. Seriously can we unlock the regions again yet? You already got 2 leagues filled with Koreans. What's the point in having another one? How about you just watch those and leave WCS to the people who do enjoy it.
Korean leagues aren't watchable live if you have normal work hours. WCS does. I enjoyed a bit of WCS. But not all of it. Apples and oranges.
Also the GSL quality is like watching Brood War match with Boxer (meaning from 10 years). But.. Without Boxer.
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What a night, congrats to Hydra. 
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On June 29 2015 19:47 Thax wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 18:44 showstealer1829 wrote:
I think I'm in the minority but I just couldn't get excited about the whole thing once Bunny beat SD. I knew at that point whoever won out of Hydra/Polt wins. As much as I understand the need for Foreign players it doesn't make for the best stuff. Seriously can we unlock the regions again yet? You already got 2 leagues filled with Koreans. What's the point in having another one? How about you just watch those and leave WCS to the people who do enjoy it.
GSL/SSL happen on the other side of the world where you can only watch them, when you either have no daytime job (EU) or no need of sleep (AM)
WCS starts perfect for EU and okayish for AM and it happens directly next door. I drive less then an hour to the ESL Cologne studios. The whole thing of WCS 2014 was not the "oh another korean league just outside of korea" but "yeees all the players I love come to Germany and I can watch them, talk to them". Not only that, the Koreans actually lived here in Germany, MC, Hyun, First and Yoda in Duesseldorf, Patience and Golden in Duisburg, MMA sometimes in Munich and the mYi Boys in Switzerland.
Each day these guys where actually here and came there, where the fans where. And each day they played ladder, they helped he foreigners in Europe to competete with them and to improve.
But WCS 2015 is boring for me. Finals have been 3:0 Hydra vs Polt and thats it. Lilbow against Hydra was nothing more then "how many all ins will work?". 2 worked, fine.
WCS had how many viewers in the finals 70k?
Think about that: IEM Katowice had 150k viewers peak, without any foreigner playing there.
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On June 29 2015 21:28 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 19:47 Thax wrote:On June 29 2015 18:44 showstealer1829 wrote:
I think I'm in the minority but I just couldn't get excited about the whole thing once Bunny beat SD. I knew at that point whoever won out of Hydra/Polt wins. As much as I understand the need for Foreign players it doesn't make for the best stuff. Seriously can we unlock the regions again yet? You already got 2 leagues filled with Koreans. What's the point in having another one? How about you just watch those and leave WCS to the people who do enjoy it. GSL/SSL happen on the other side of the world where you can only watch them, when you either have no daytime job (EU) or no need of sleep (AM) WCS starts perfect for EU and okayish for AM and it happens directly next door. I drive less then an hour to the ESL Cologne studios. The whole thing of WCS 2014 was not the "oh another korean league just outside of korea" but "yeees all the players I love come to Germany and I can watch them, talk to them". Not only that, the Koreans actually lived here in Germany, MC, Hyun, First and Yoda in Duesseldorf, Patience and Golden in Duisburg, MMA sometimes in Munich and the mYi Boys in Switzerland. Each day these guys where actually here and came there, where the fans where. And each day they played ladder, they helped he foreigners in Europe to competete with them and to improve. But WCS 2015 is boring for me. Finals have been 3:0 Hydra vs Polt and thats it. Lilbow against Hydra was nothing more then "how many all ins will work?". 2 worked, fine. WCS had how many viewers in the finals 70k? Think about that: IEM Katowice had 150k viewers peak, without any foreigner playing there.
The sad thing about those kind of POV, you forgot 1 thing. How could players like lilbow, iaguz, TLO, can rise or having some really MEANINGFULL games, nowadays, too show to spectators, if they dont have 1 major tounrament to play in with actual chances? And no, seeing a foreginer beating a korean in RO256 in BO1, is not intereseting. Its just a good sign. I mean I love MC, MMA, MVP, ( :'( ) Stardust for their spirits and skill. But FUCK YEA I want too cheer for people like Lilbow, iaguz, Bunny, Mana, who deserves as much as koreans to have a Major tournament where they can show something. Foreigners dont have same history (tournaments/practice/coachs...) than koreans let them build it up, damn it!
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On June 29 2015 21:28 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 19:47 Thax wrote:On June 29 2015 18:44 showstealer1829 wrote:
I think I'm in the minority but I just couldn't get excited about the whole thing once Bunny beat SD. I knew at that point whoever won out of Hydra/Polt wins. As much as I understand the need for Foreign players it doesn't make for the best stuff. Seriously can we unlock the regions again yet? You already got 2 leagues filled with Koreans. What's the point in having another one? How about you just watch those and leave WCS to the people who do enjoy it. GSL/SSL happen on the other side of the world where you can only watch them, when you either have no daytime job (EU) or no need of sleep (AM) WCS starts perfect for EU and okayish for AM and it happens directly next door. I drive less then an hour to the ESL Cologne studios. The whole thing of WCS 2014 was not the "oh another korean league just outside of korea" but "yeees all the players I love come to Germany and I can watch them, talk to them". Not only that, the Koreans actually lived here in Germany, MC, Hyun, First and Yoda in Duesseldorf, Patience and Golden in Duisburg, MMA sometimes in Munich and the mYi Boys in Switzerland. Each day these guys where actually here and came there, where the fans where. And each day they played ladder, they helped he foreigners in Europe to competete with them and to improve. But WCS 2015 is boring for me. Finals have been 3:0 Hydra vs Polt and thats it. Lilbow against Hydra was nothing more then "how many all ins will work?". 2 worked, fine. WCS had how many viewers in the finals 70k? Think about that: IEM Katowice had 150k viewers peak, without any foreigner playing there.
the last sales announcement Blizzard ever made for SC2 was that HotS sold 1.1 Million. Had it hit 2 Million we would['ve heard about it. so this decline in viewership was written on the wall in 2013... viewership will continue to decay over time.
the biggest limiting factor to viewership is # of copies of the game sold.
about your other points in your post. i view Germany as the #2 RTS country to Korea.. its a distant 2nd place.. but its definitely the best country outside Korea for RTS.
moving on from this stuff,
over all it was a very nice event done by WCS/Blizzard/ESL.
a lot of really cool games.. really neat micro and some super cool come back wins.
it was nice for visitors to see "the real toronto" rather than some northern outpost beside the airport.
well done by all 16 participants and of course well done by CANADIAN ... David Kim
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On June 29 2015 22:24 SinO[Ob] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 21:28 Clonester wrote:On June 29 2015 19:47 Thax wrote:On June 29 2015 18:44 showstealer1829 wrote:
I think I'm in the minority but I just couldn't get excited about the whole thing once Bunny beat SD. I knew at that point whoever won out of Hydra/Polt wins. As much as I understand the need for Foreign players it doesn't make for the best stuff. Seriously can we unlock the regions again yet? You already got 2 leagues filled with Koreans. What's the point in having another one? How about you just watch those and leave WCS to the people who do enjoy it. GSL/SSL happen on the other side of the world where you can only watch them, when you either have no daytime job (EU) or no need of sleep (AM) WCS starts perfect for EU and okayish for AM and it happens directly next door. I drive less then an hour to the ESL Cologne studios. The whole thing of WCS 2014 was not the "oh another korean league just outside of korea" but "yeees all the players I love come to Germany and I can watch them, talk to them". Not only that, the Koreans actually lived here in Germany, MC, Hyun, First and Yoda in Duesseldorf, Patience and Golden in Duisburg, MMA sometimes in Munich and the mYi Boys in Switzerland. Each day these guys where actually here and came there, where the fans where. And each day they played ladder, they helped he foreigners in Europe to competete with them and to improve. But WCS 2015 is boring for me. Finals have been 3:0 Hydra vs Polt and thats it. Lilbow against Hydra was nothing more then "how many all ins will work?". 2 worked, fine. WCS had how many viewers in the finals 70k? Think about that: IEM Katowice had 150k viewers peak, without any foreigner playing there. The sad thing about those kind of POV, you forgot 1 thing. How could players like lilbow, iaguz, TLO, can rise or having some really MEANINGFULL games, nowadays, too show to spectators, if they dont have 1 major tounrament to play in with actual chances? And no, seeing a foreginer beating a korean in RO256 in BO1, is not intereseting. Its just a good sign. I mean I love MC, MMA, MVP, ( :'( ) Stardust for their spirits and skill. But FUCK YEA I want too cheer for people like Lilbow, iaguz, Bunny, Mana, who deserves as much as koreans to have a Major tournament where they can show something. Foreigners dont have same history (tournaments/practice/coachs...) than koreans let them build it up, damn it!
And how shall they build up when you outlaw all koreans who gave daily competetions in ladder and just keep them fighting in round of 8-finals 3 times a year in a league and some weekenders? They wount build up from that.
And in WCS EU despite of up to 10 koreans there, the Ro8 had allways some foreigner in it, now we had 4 korens there and alot of draw luck, in WCS EU we had mostly 5-6 there. Not alot has changed despite the luck in the draw.
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1 continued criticism that plagues all these events.
the breaks between sets is far too long.
for LIVE SC2 eSports to even have a prayer of main stream acceptance this has needed to be fixed and never was.
its part of the reason SC2 eSports never really did hit mainstream.
and if the organization running the event accepts that there will be long breaks then make it Part ESPN/ Part Game Show because talking heads between matches does not cut it.
all this is pretty much too late any how.. but it still does continue to be an issue.
other than the "too long breaks" the event was great.
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On June 29 2015 23:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
1 continued criticism that plagues all these events.
the breaks between sets is far too long.
for LIVE SC2 eSports to even have a prayer of main stream acceptance this has needed to be fixed and never was.
its part of the reason SC2 eSports never really did hit mainstream.
and if the organization running the event accepts that there will be long breaks then make it Part ESPN/ Part Game Show because talking heads between matches does not cut it.
all this is pretty much too late any how.. but it still does continue to be an issue.
other than the "too long breaks" the event was great.
Well they add funny videos with incontrol and the archon matches. So it's a start.
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Were they scheduled for there to be games after games, or was there just a time schedule instead?
I think that this WCS, unlike the others, was a bit stompier than we've previously seen, with some vicious 3-0s all around.
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EPT
