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Cut down on the balance/design whining please. |
On March 15 2015 18:23 dazed25 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2015 18:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 15 2015 18:15 dazed25 wrote:Oh I know it is. At this point it's like being dragged down into the mud with Sackofwetmice. Haha.  The fact of the matter is the best players find a way to win even when they are not playing at their absolute best. This is what separates multiple time champions like Mvp, Life, MC, and Zest (and no I am not putting Zest on that pedestal yet) from guys like soO, Rain, Innovation, and Flash. That actually hurt me to say because I like all those players.  INnoVation is a multiple time champion. He won Code S and WCS Korea. Well yeah but he's also capable of tilting very hard anytime something goes wrong. Him and those other players i mentioned have all shown that they are capable of being the best players in the world and having the best play but they can't close out like the others.
That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it... but you started your post with "the fact of the matter is," and proceeded to talk about opinions.
I can just as easily bring up Life vs INnoVation in ro16 of this very tournament as proof that Life, a multiple-r time champion than INnoVation, wasn't clutch enough to beat INnoVation despite beating him in Code S a week ago.
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On March 15 2015 18:27 Ej_ wrote:
ugh Zest got into the finals?
how hard did INnoVation choke?
Turns out it's INnoVation who doesn't have the skills for late-game TvP, eh (;
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On March 15 2015 18:27 Ej_ wrote:
ugh Zest got into the finals?
how hard did INnoVation choke?
After getting a supply lead in g5, he decided that his only recourse was to SCV all in up a ramp into a 2 base Protoss.
With his army behind forcefields, and his SCVs behind his army.
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On March 15 2015 18:31 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2015 18:27 Ej_ wrote:
ugh Zest got into the finals?
how hard did INnoVation choke? After getting a supply lead in g5, he decided that his only recourse was to SCV all in up a ramp into a 2 base Protoss. With his army behind forcefields, and his SCVs behind his army.
ok sounds about right
goddamnit Bogus
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On March 15 2015 18:31 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2015 18:27 Ej_ wrote:
ugh Zest got into the finals?
how hard did INnoVation choke? After getting a supply lead in g5, he decided that his only recourse was to SCV all in up a ramp into a 2 base Protoss. With his army behind forcefields, and his SCVs behind his army.
3 base Protoss*
Apart from that it's a correct picture of what happened.
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On March 15 2015 18:33 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2015 18:31 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 15 2015 18:27 Ej_ wrote:
ugh Zest got into the finals?
how hard did INnoVation choke? After getting a supply lead in g5, he decided that his only recourse was to SCV all in up a ramp into a 2 base Protoss. With his army behind forcefields, and his SCVs behind his army. 3 base Protoss* Apart from that it's a correct picture of what happened.
I'm pretty sure that Zest's third had just completed. He was functionally on two bases.
My point was less "Zest was so screwed anyway" and more "INno had no hope of catching Zest's army in an awkward position."
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On March 15 2015 18:31 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2015 18:27 Ej_ wrote:
ugh Zest got into the finals?
how hard did INnoVation choke? After getting a supply lead in g5, he decided that his only recourse was to SCV all in up a ramp into a 2 base Protoss. With his army behind forcefields, and his SCVs behind his army.
A supply lead against a Protoss says literally nothing about whether or not a Terran is ahead. Zest had the upgrade lead, his army would get exponentially more powerful as time goes on, INnoVation's decision to pull the boys was made before that, he didn't get an armory or a third.
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On March 15 2015 18:35 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2015 18:33 OtherWorld wrote:On March 15 2015 18:31 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 15 2015 18:27 Ej_ wrote:
ugh Zest got into the finals?
how hard did INnoVation choke? After getting a supply lead in g5, he decided that his only recourse was to SCV all in up a ramp into a 2 base Protoss. With his army behind forcefields, and his SCVs behind his army. 3 base Protoss* Apart from that it's a correct picture of what happened. I'm pretty sure that Zest's third had just completed. He was functionally on two bases.
Ah yes if that's what you mean. He had the potential to drone up his third quickly though thanks to triple CB'd probe production.
And I'm not sure if Zest was that screwed. He had the upgrade advantage, and showed in previous games that he was not to fear INno's midgame that day.
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On March 15 2015 18:35 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2015 18:33 OtherWorld wrote:On March 15 2015 18:31 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 15 2015 18:27 Ej_ wrote:
ugh Zest got into the finals?
how hard did INnoVation choke? After getting a supply lead in g5, he decided that his only recourse was to SCV all in up a ramp into a 2 base Protoss. With his army behind forcefields, and his SCVs behind his army. 3 base Protoss* Apart from that it's a correct picture of what happened. I'm pretty sure that Zest's third had just completed. He was functionally on two bases.
It was completed for a while but he chose not to send any probes there because he knew INno would SCV pull. I think against Bbyong it was barely complete when Bbyong pulled SCVs, but I'm not sure.
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On March 15 2015 18:36 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2015 18:31 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 15 2015 18:27 Ej_ wrote:
ugh Zest got into the finals?
how hard did INnoVation choke? After getting a supply lead in g5, he decided that his only recourse was to SCV all in up a ramp into a 2 base Protoss. With his army behind forcefields, and his SCVs behind his army. A supply lead against a Protoss says literally nothing about whether or not a Terran is ahead. Zest had the upgrade lead, his army would get exponentially more powerful as time goes on, INnoVation's decision to pull the boys was made before that, he didn't get an armory or a third.
I'm not educated enough on the topic to play the what-if game. But there's no arguing that his execution of the pull left very much to be desired.
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70 Posts
g3 of zest vs bbyong was incredible
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On March 15 2015 18:39 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2015 18:36 Elentos wrote:On March 15 2015 18:31 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 15 2015 18:27 Ej_ wrote:
ugh Zest got into the finals?
how hard did INnoVation choke? After getting a supply lead in g5, he decided that his only recourse was to SCV all in up a ramp into a 2 base Protoss. With his army behind forcefields, and his SCVs behind his army. A supply lead against a Protoss says literally nothing about whether or not a Terran is ahead. Zest had the upgrade lead, his army would get exponentially more powerful as time goes on, INnoVation's decision to pull the boys was made before that, he didn't get an armory or a third. I'm not educated enough on the topic to play the what-if game. But there's no arguing that his execution of the pull left very much to be desired.
I agree that his pull was not really optimal d:
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On March 15 2015 18:28 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2015 18:23 dazed25 wrote:On March 15 2015 18:19 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 15 2015 18:15 dazed25 wrote:Oh I know it is. At this point it's like being dragged down into the mud with Sackofwetmice. Haha. The fact of the matter is the best players find a way to win even when they are not playing at their absolute best. This is what separates multiple time champions like Mvp, Life, MC, and Zest (and no I am not putting Zest on that pedestal yet) from guys like soO, Rain, Innovation, and Flash. That actually hurt me to say because I like all those players. INnoVation is a multiple time champion. He won Code S and WCS Korea. Well yeah but he's also capable of tilting very hard anytime something goes wrong. Him and those other players i mentioned have all shown that they are capable of being the best players in the world and having the best play but they can't close out like the others. That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it... but you started your post with "the fact of the matter is," and proceeded to talk about opinions. I can just as easily bring up Life vs INnoVation in ro16 of this very tournament as proof that Life, a multiple-r time champion than INnoVation, wasn't clutch enough to beat INnoVation despite beating him in Code S a week ago.
Meh I'll concede the first point. These arguments can get tedious when you have emotional ties to the players you support.
Life had to play in three top tier tournaments pretty much back to back to back so he gets a little more leeway. Especially considering he was one game away from winning all three series. Though on the flip side Inno could have won both as well. In my opinion Inno just lacks some of the killer instinct (Yeah cliche, I know) that would let him crush considering he is arguably one of the two strongest players in the world. He has been eliminated from NSSL/GSL and seems to have a mental block when going against players such as Zest and Taeja. I just feel his results aren't living up to his talent and the expectations we have of him.
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On March 15 2015 18:39 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2015 18:36 Elentos wrote:On March 15 2015 18:31 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 15 2015 18:27 Ej_ wrote:
ugh Zest got into the finals?
how hard did INnoVation choke? After getting a supply lead in g5, he decided that his only recourse was to SCV all in up a ramp into a 2 base Protoss. With his army behind forcefields, and his SCVs behind his army. A supply lead against a Protoss says literally nothing about whether or not a Terran is ahead. Zest had the upgrade lead, his army would get exponentially more powerful as time goes on, INnoVation's decision to pull the boys was made before that, he didn't get an armory or a third. I'm not educated enough on the topic to play the what-if game. But there's no arguing that his execution of the pull left very much to be desired.
I've seen better, yes, especially getting so many vikings killed immediately wasn't great. Although Zest made basically no mistakes in defending the pull.
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On March 15 2015 18:41 dazed25 wrote:In my opinion Inno just lacks some of the killer instinct (Yeah cliche, I know) that would let him crush considering he is arguably one of the two strongest players in the world. He has been eliminated from NSSL/GSL and seems to have a mental block when going against players such as Zest and Taeja. I just feel his results aren't living up to his talent and the expectations we have of him.
I don't think anyone who has seen INno vs Soulkey Code S finals, or INno vs Maru in OSL, would ever say that INnoVation is unflappable. He's quite flappable.
But specifically regarding the examples you bring up: INno vs Taeja are 6-6 in 2014, not counting Blizzcon which was plagued with technical difficulties and INno's mouse breaking, and 7-9 even if we count Blizzcon. Hardly what I'd call a mental block. INno vs Zest, almost all of their matches come from 2014, aka SC2's Golden Age. Need I say more?
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Germany158 Posts
On March 15 2015 18:31 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2015 18:27 Ej_ wrote:
ugh Zest got into the finals?
how hard did INnoVation choke? After getting a supply lead in g5, he decided that his only recourse was to SCV all in up a ramp into a 2 base Protoss. With his army behind forcefields, and his SCVs behind his army.
You forgot about the 5-6 Collosi that were just waiting up there. Like 1/3 Laserbeam and the pulled boys were fried.
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On March 15 2015 18:53 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2015 18:41 dazed25 wrote:In my opinion Inno just lacks some of the killer instinct (Yeah cliche, I know) that would let him crush considering he is arguably one of the two strongest players in the world. He has been eliminated from NSSL/GSL and seems to have a mental block when going against players such as Zest and Taeja. I just feel his results aren't living up to his talent and the expectations we have of him. I don't think anyone who has seen INno vs Soulkey Code S finals, or INno vs Maru in OSL, would ever say that INnoVation is unflappable. He's quite flappable. But specifically regarding the examples you bring up: INno vs Taeja are 6-6 in 2014, not counting Blizzcon which was plagued with technical difficulties and INno's mouse breaking, and 7-9 even if we count Blizzcon. Hardly what I'd call a mental block. INno vs Zest, almost all of their matches come from 2014, aka SC2's Golden Age. Need I say more?
If we exclude 2014, Zest vs INno is 7-5 in maps and 2-1 in series.
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On March 15 2015 18:53 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2015 18:41 dazed25 wrote:In my opinion Inno just lacks some of the killer instinct (Yeah cliche, I know) that would let him crush considering he is arguably one of the two strongest players in the world. He has been eliminated from NSSL/GSL and seems to have a mental block when going against players such as Zest and Taeja. I just feel his results aren't living up to his talent and the expectations we have of him. I don't think anyone who has seen INno vs Soulkey Code S finals, or INno vs Maru in OSL, would ever say that INnoVation is unflappable. He's quite flappable. But specifically regarding the examples you bring up: INno vs Taeja are 6-6 in 2014, not counting Blizzcon which was plagued with technical difficulties and INno's mouse breaking, and 7-9 even if we count Blizzcon. Hardly what I'd call a mental block. INno vs Zest, almost all of their matches come from 2014, aka SC2's Golden Age. Need I say more?
Only one of their matches is from the Toss OP nerf blink era, most are actually from 2013. See here.
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70 Posts
On March 15 2015 18:31 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2015 18:27 Ej_ wrote:
ugh Zest got into the finals?
how hard did INnoVation choke? After getting a supply lead in g5, he decided that his only recourse was to SCV all in up a ramp into a 2 base Protoss. With his army behind forcefields, and his SCVs behind his army.
also stimmed twice basically before his army was shooting anything
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On March 15 2015 19:03 IMR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2015 18:31 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 15 2015 18:27 Ej_ wrote:
ugh Zest got into the finals?
how hard did INnoVation choke? After getting a supply lead in g5, he decided that his only recourse was to SCV all in up a ramp into a 2 base Protoss. With his army behind forcefields, and his SCVs behind his army. also stimmed twice basically before his army was shooting anything
Well you generally wanna stim and then start the fight, although twice seems silly. But of course, overstimming is something that has killed every Terran at least once.
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EPT
