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On May 02 2014 02:45 Yhamm wrote:
While I agree with you, you should probably say that before one of your player lose 2-0 2-0.
I may be wrong but he qualified to this tournament playing in previous Zotac Cup on Europe Server.
I'm too busy to worry about image problems, I'd rather get the real problems solved.
Yeah sure, he did qualify by playing on the EU server, but this is a final for a decent chunk of change, you should probably not stack the deck against one region when you do that, that's just poor tournament planning. Any doubts about Impacts skill were put to rest at Dreamhack, unfortunately matches like these are poor for the players and poor for the audience since they don't get to see a true representation of the skill level of both players.
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On May 02 2014 02:40 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Since Zotac EU is now the only tournament that Zotac holds, with NA being shut down, I would strongly suggest to them that it's time to update their rulebook and stop forcing Koreans to play on EU servers with 400+ ping. If you are going to open your tournament to everyone then you should also be equitable when it comes to cross-server matches. NA and KR players should be alternating on a match by match basis, EU and KR players should be playing their match on NA. That is common knowledge by this point. Having to play your matchs at 2am onwards it bad enough for Korean players, maybe they should also not have to suffer ridiculous lag as well. I get it, it's their choice to play, but there aren't many online cups to participate in anymore, so I'd rather the existing ones either properly region-lock or show and even hand with server picking even if they can't do so with schedule.
EU is the default server for the Season Final as all ZOTAC Cups that lead to this final were also played on EU. If both players agree, they can still play on NA or KR. In fact Hurricane vs. Impact was played on the KR server. I am bringing up something that you also should consider: Happy for example never played in the previous monthly finals as the default server was NA back then and it is simply unplayable for him (not ping alone). Now that there is only the EU tournament, would it be fair to him to force him to play on NA while qualifiying via an EU touranment?
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I'm with TB on this one. KR to EU lag is awful and completely undermines the game and result. When one player is playing from the EU and the other is in Korea then the only way to do it that is fair is to play on the NA server.
Not saying this is the sole reason Impact lost today, because Hurricane also beat him with both players on KR, there was sort of a DH hangover (which is understandable, that must have been exhausting to finish in the final of a two-day event on your first foreign tournament) for Impact but I don't think you can say the MarineLorD result was fair. There were numerous examples where Impact miscontrolled his units to the level where it's the fault of lack not mistake.
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On May 02 2014 03:09 Donathan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 02:40 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Since Zotac EU is now the only tournament that Zotac holds, with NA being shut down, I would strongly suggest to them that it's time to update their rulebook and stop forcing Koreans to play on EU servers with 400+ ping. If you are going to open your tournament to everyone then you should also be equitable when it comes to cross-server matches. NA and KR players should be alternating on a match by match basis, EU and KR players should be playing their match on NA. That is common knowledge by this point. Having to play your matchs at 2am onwards it bad enough for Korean players, maybe they should also not have to suffer ridiculous lag as well. I get it, it's their choice to play, but there aren't many online cups to participate in anymore, so I'd rather the existing ones either properly region-lock or show and even hand with server picking even if they can't do so with schedule. I am bringing up something that you also should consider: Happy for example never played in the previous monthly finals as the default server was NA back then and it is simply unplayable for him (not ping alone). Now that there is only the EU tournament, would it be fair to him to force him to play on NA while qualifiying via an EU touranment?
If his opponent is playing from KR then yes it would be totally fair to make Happy play on NA. Because then both players have similar lag levels and it's an even playing field. As a viewer, I want to watch a match that is played out in equal conditions.
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On May 02 2014 03:09 Donathan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 02:40 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Since Zotac EU is now the only tournament that Zotac holds, with NA being shut down, I would strongly suggest to them that it's time to update their rulebook and stop forcing Koreans to play on EU servers with 400+ ping. If you are going to open your tournament to everyone then you should also be equitable when it comes to cross-server matches. NA and KR players should be alternating on a match by match basis, EU and KR players should be playing their match on NA. That is common knowledge by this point. Having to play your matchs at 2am onwards it bad enough for Korean players, maybe they should also not have to suffer ridiculous lag as well. I get it, it's their choice to play, but there aren't many online cups to participate in anymore, so I'd rather the existing ones either properly region-lock or show and even hand with server picking even if they can't do so with schedule. EU is the default server for the Season Final as all ZOTAC Cups that lead to this final were also played on EU. If both players agree, they can still play on NA or KR. In fact Hurricane vs. Impact was played on the KR server. I am bringing up something that you also should consider: Happy for example never played in the previous monthly finals as the default server was NA back then and it is simply unplayable for him (not ping alone). Now that there is only the EU tournament, would it be fair to him to force him to play on NA while qualifiying via an EU touranment?
I understand the problem with players like Happy. My point is that since there are no other regional ZOTACs anymore, they should be pushing towards more equitable solutions for server choice. While Happy, a Russian may have issues connecting to NA, I doubt Marinelord who is in France does.
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France7248 Posts
not the best way to get votes for Tefel! 
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If you choose to play in an EU tournament you have to accept that the games will be played on the EU server and that you might have a disadvantage competing in it if you are playing from NA or KR. It's not like they changed their rules in the middle of the event.
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GJ Marinelord! Shit, cool to see that guy get something going.
Also gogo Jjakji!
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On May 02 2014 03:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:
I understand the problem with players like Happy. My point is that since there are no other regional ZOTACs anymore, they should be pushing towards more equitable solutions for server choice. While Happy, a Russian may have issues connecting to NA, I doubt Marinelord who is in France does.
Again to make this clear: NA would of course sometimes be the better choice. There is no arguing about that. But then again, the Season Final is a result of the performance of the EU Cups. EU Cup --> EU server. The EU Cup didn't change its name nor did the rules. So that's no reason to enforce NA server for some matches.
The Cup is meant for the EU players. Still everyone is free to join. If Korean players qualify, the fact that this is the result of the EU won't change. Nevertheless we do our best to make it as much enjoyable for every player as possible. As mentioned before, some games weren't played on EU when both players agreed.
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On May 02 2014 19:31 ZOTAC Cup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2014 03:35 TotalBiscuit wrote:
I understand the problem with players like Happy. My point is that since there are no other regional ZOTACs anymore, they should be pushing towards more equitable solutions for server choice. While Happy, a Russian may have issues connecting to NA, I doubt Marinelord who is in France does. Again to make this clear: NA would of course sometimes be the better choice. There is no arguing about that. But then again, the Season Final is a result of the performance of the EU Cups. EU Cup --> EU server. The EU Cup didn't change its name nor did the rules. So that's no reason to enforce NA server for some matches. The Cup is meant for the EU players. Still everyone is free to join. If Korean players qualify, the fact that this is the result of the EU won't change. Nevertheless we do our best to make it as much enjoyable for every player as possible. As mentioned before, some games weren't played on EU when both players agreed.
And to reiterate my previous point. "The cup is made for EU players", then region-lock it. This half-way house solution resulting in unequitable games and sub-par experiences for the viewer and players is not ideal. Now that Zotac EU is the only Zotac cup and one of the only regular online events left, I would like to see it either region-lock, eliminating the server problems entirely, or more equitable rules regarding cross-server player implemented. Koreans are hardly spoiled for choice in which tournaments they can play in, since Korea has literally zero online cups of any sort.
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France7248 Posts
great second map by MarineLorD :O
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On May 02 2014 23:05 SatedSC2 wrote:I don't see how switching between servers is seen as a fair solution. One player will always have the advantage of potentially playing on their "home" server more times than the other player given that all series are BoX and therefore have an odd number of games. How do you even decide the server you play on first? Flip a coin? It's a silly suggestion that doesn't really achieve the aim of reducing unfairness. EDIT: I know that KR/EU being played on NA has always been touted as a fair solution, but does anyone have any evidence for this? I honestly don't know what the lag is like from both those regions when connecting to NA. Korea covers a pretty small area compared to the area that the EU server covers, so you have to consider that not all European countries countries served by the EU server are going to have the same connection to the NA server. I mean, some places in Europe don't even seem to connect to the EU server very well, yet alone any of the others! I guess I just find it hard to believe that EU to NA and KR to NA are directly comparable, mostly because I've never seen any good evidence for it. Because of this, it seems just as fair for a tournament to set a "home" server that is used by default unless two players agree to play somewhere else, especially when that "home" server is the server that people qualified through in the first place. Willing to be proven wrong on this particular count, I literally don't know what the data is for EU to NA and KR to NA 
I agree that its not ideal, but I think we could all agree that its fairer than having it be lopsided purely for one player. I can't say much about the NA lag from EU or KR but it seems like all of the organizers agree that this is best so I will assume they have some knowledge about it. I'm interested in that too, though I assume I could find it if I googled it, as I'm sure this is not the first time that question has been asked.
Just as a personal comment, I think I would tend to agree with TotalBiscuit just because although the tournament is meant for European players, its more important to me to have a spirit of fairness and good sportsmanship. Having a tournament biased towards European players in terms of lag is just not the type of thing I want to watch as a viewer, I would much prefer to have as even a match as possible.
I think any type of systematic bias (outside of what can not be controlled) should really be eliminated as much as possible as a general principle of fairness in sport. I do hope Zotac chooses to stay open rather than become a Europe-only tourney though, I feel like Khaldor's casts wouldn't be as interesting or varied as a result, which I am starting to enjoy quite a bit.
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Thank you everybody for tuning in during the last three days! We will surely think about how we can improve the overall experience for players as well as the viewership for the next one, so feel free to share any feedback or remarks you might have. Also thank your for the server discussion in this thread which we will take into consideration.
Last but not least, we will prepare a replay pack next week which will be available to download, if you missed any of the games or want to take a closer look at them ;-)
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You can't stop the HyuN Unfortunate about jjakji but shit happens.
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EPT
