On January 24 2014 19:51 The_Red_Viper wrote: Mutas are retarded, as long as they stay the way they are there will be almost no terran that wins with bio vs zerg -.- And that comes from a zerg player (though it is not really important, everybody can see this i think^^)
i wonder how the MU would play out if widow mines activated faster? the overseer speed buff, while great, made widow mines really pathetic against mutas. with the reduced blast damage i think faster mines might keep the matchup interesting. not sure exactly how it would change mine dragging/mine spread or if it would buff zerg on the ground... zerg needs mutas but i definitely see how the huge balls can be a problem for any terran who falls even slightly behind
tvz was perfectly balanced until they nerfed widowmines for god knows what reason
winrates favored terran and bio mine camping a choke point outside a 4th base was ridiculous. pre-nerf mines are not the way to fix the matchup again, that would be a terrible regression. 3/3 alone means bio mine is still fine against ling bling on the ground, but mutas are a bigger problem now as terrans have observed.
Sources on this? Its quite easy to write "win rates favoured Terran" but I remember the win rates as being 50%, I am not sure though. Would be nice if you provided statistics.
the source is my memory, i don't care to prove it or argue it because the actual point i was making was in the words i typed, not the statistic as i remember it... going back to bio mine in choke points pre-nerf would be enough to make me switch to protoss lol
On January 24 2014 19:51 The_Red_Viper wrote: Mutas are retarded, as long as they stay the way they are there will be almost no terran that wins with bio vs zerg -.- And that comes from a zerg player (though it is not really important, everybody can see this i think^^)
i wonder how the MU would play out if widow mines activated faster? the overseer speed buff, while great, made widow mines really pathetic against mutas. with the reduced blast damage i think faster mines might keep the matchup interesting. not sure exactly how it would change mine dragging/mine spread or if it would buff zerg on the ground... zerg needs mutas but i definitely see how the huge balls can be a problem for any terran who falls even slightly behind
tvz was perfectly balanced until they nerfed widowmines for god knows what reason
To make more interesting room for Siege Tanks in the TvZ Match Up. That was the reason and yet we have not seen a single tank produced if Terran is not miles ahead. Or if TY is abusing them on Yeonseu (and being miles ahead).
So stupid. Why change WMs if you're not sure whether Tanks will become useful? If the Tanks are built a lot, then fewer mines will be built as a matter of course, because they come from the same building and cost gas. Tanks would have naturally phased mines out of the game.
On January 24 2014 19:51 The_Red_Viper wrote: Mutas are retarded, as long as they stay the way they are there will be almost no terran that wins with bio vs zerg -.- And that comes from a zerg player (though it is not really important, everybody can see this i think^^)
i wonder how the MU would play out if widow mines activated faster? the overseer speed buff, while great, made widow mines really pathetic against mutas. with the reduced blast damage i think faster mines might keep the matchup interesting. not sure exactly how it would change mine dragging/mine spread or if it would buff zerg on the ground... zerg needs mutas but i definitely see how the huge balls can be a problem for any terran who falls even slightly behind
tvz was perfectly balanced until they nerfed widowmines for god knows what reason
winrates favored terran and bio mine camping a choke point outside a 4th base was ridiculous. pre-nerf mines are not the way to fix the matchup again, that would be a terrible regression. 3/3 alone means bio mine is still fine against ling bling on the ground, but mutas are a bigger problem now as terrans have observed.
Biomine vs muta/ling/bling is insanely snowbally, but still imo the most balanced and demanding match up in sc2 history
I dunno. I think old school Marine/Tank vs Old school Ling/Bling/Muta was more balanced.
I think before drg showed that it was possible if you were fast enough to win as zerg you're probably right, but post that winrates were pretty spot on 50/50.
On January 24 2014 19:51 The_Red_Viper wrote: Mutas are retarded, as long as they stay the way they are there will be almost no terran that wins with bio vs zerg -.- And that comes from a zerg player (though it is not really important, everybody can see this i think^^)
i wonder how the MU would play out if widow mines activated faster? the overseer speed buff, while great, made widow mines really pathetic against mutas. with the reduced blast damage i think faster mines might keep the matchup interesting. not sure exactly how it would change mine dragging/mine spread or if it would buff zerg on the ground... zerg needs mutas but i definitely see how the huge balls can be a problem for any terran who falls even slightly behind
tvz was perfectly balanced until they nerfed widowmines for god knows what reason
winrates favored terran and bio mine camping a choke point outside a 4th base was ridiculous. pre-nerf mines are not the way to fix the matchup again, that would be a terrible regression. 3/3 alone means bio mine is still fine against ling bling on the ground, but mutas are a bigger problem now as terrans have observed.
Sources on this? Its quite easy to write "win rates favoured Terran" but I remember the win rates as being 50%, I am not sure though. Would be nice if you provided statistics.
the source is my memory, i don't care to prove it or argue it because the actual point i was making was in the words i typed, not the statistic as i remember it... going back to bio mine in choke points pre-nerf would be enough to make me switch to protoss lol
Mutas and overlord speed were initially buffed to help Zerg against bio+WM. With WM nerf, why should it stays as it is now? Mutas are just too good of an unit across all MU currently.
On January 24 2014 19:51 The_Red_Viper wrote: Mutas are retarded, as long as they stay the way they are there will be almost no terran that wins with bio vs zerg -.- And that comes from a zerg player (though it is not really important, everybody can see this i think^^)
i wonder how the MU would play out if widow mines activated faster? the overseer speed buff, while great, made widow mines really pathetic against mutas. with the reduced blast damage i think faster mines might keep the matchup interesting. not sure exactly how it would change mine dragging/mine spread or if it would buff zerg on the ground... zerg needs mutas but i definitely see how the huge balls can be a problem for any terran who falls even slightly behind
tvz was perfectly balanced until they nerfed widowmines for god knows what reason
winrates favored terran and bio mine camping a choke point outside a 4th base was ridiculous. pre-nerf mines are not the way to fix the matchup again, that would be a terrible regression. 3/3 alone means bio mine is still fine against ling bling on the ground, but mutas are a bigger problem now as terrans have observed.
Biomine vs muta/ling/bling is insanely snowbally, but still imo the most balanced and demanding match up in sc2 history
never understood that. to me it's the least "snowbally" matchup. most matchups are 1 engagement and then the snowball is instantly an avalanche. the fact that it's "snowballing" at all instead of "instant gg" is a credit to the matchup IMO. but that's just my opinion
On January 24 2014 20:03 fx9 wrote: Mutas and overlord speed were initially buffed to help Zerg against bio+WM. With WM nerf, why should it stays as it is now? Mutas are just too good of an unit across all MU currently.
overseer speed buff was really more about not instantly losing every single overseer to stimmed marines if you ever have to retreat from a fight. the utility it added to muta vs mine probably went a little too far, but i still like being able to have detection with the mutas. i just think mutas should be a little weaker against mines. too easy to snipe them
On January 24 2014 19:51 The_Red_Viper wrote: Mutas are retarded, as long as they stay the way they are there will be almost no terran that wins with bio vs zerg -.- And that comes from a zerg player (though it is not really important, everybody can see this i think^^)
i wonder how the MU would play out if widow mines activated faster? the overseer speed buff, while great, made widow mines really pathetic against mutas. with the reduced blast damage i think faster mines might keep the matchup interesting. not sure exactly how it would change mine dragging/mine spread or if it would buff zerg on the ground... zerg needs mutas but i definitely see how the huge balls can be a problem for any terran who falls even slightly behind
tvz was perfectly balanced until they nerfed widowmines for god knows what reason
winrates favored terran and bio mine camping a choke point outside a 4th base was ridiculous. pre-nerf mines are not the way to fix the matchup again, that would be a terrible regression. 3/3 alone means bio mine is still fine against ling bling on the ground, but mutas are a bigger problem now as terrans have observed.
Sources on this? Its quite easy to write "win rates favoured Terran" but I remember the win rates as being 50%, I am not sure though. Would be nice if you provided statistics.
the source is my memory, i don't care to prove it or argue it because the actual point i was making was in the words i typed, not the statistic as i remember it... going back to bio mine in choke points pre-nerf would be enough to make me switch to protoss lol
Well that is a great source.. Ehhh.
He's kind of right though, when a few mines were set up in a choke point it became insanely hard to break out as zerg
On January 24 2014 19:51 The_Red_Viper wrote: Mutas are retarded, as long as they stay the way they are there will be almost no terran that wins with bio vs zerg -.- And that comes from a zerg player (though it is not really important, everybody can see this i think^^)
i wonder how the MU would play out if widow mines activated faster? the overseer speed buff, while great, made widow mines really pathetic against mutas. with the reduced blast damage i think faster mines might keep the matchup interesting. not sure exactly how it would change mine dragging/mine spread or if it would buff zerg on the ground... zerg needs mutas but i definitely see how the huge balls can be a problem for any terran who falls even slightly behind
tvz was perfectly balanced until they nerfed widowmines for god knows what reason
winrates favored terran and bio mine camping a choke point outside a 4th base was ridiculous. pre-nerf mines are not the way to fix the matchup again, that would be a terrible regression. 3/3 alone means bio mine is still fine against ling bling on the ground, but mutas are a bigger problem now as terrans have observed.
Sources on this? Its quite easy to write "win rates favoured Terran" but I remember the win rates as being 50%, I am not sure though. Would be nice if you provided statistics.
the source is my memory, i don't care to prove it or argue it because the actual point i was making was in the words i typed, not the statistic as i remember it... going back to bio mine in choke points pre-nerf would be enough to make me switch to protoss lol
Well that is a great source.. Ehhh.
He's kind of right though, when a few mines were set up in a choke point it became insanely hard to break out as zerg
I am not arguing about that at all. Im just saying that claiming that "win rates favoured Terran" and then saying "I dont have sources, just my head" is a bit weird way to argue.
On January 24 2014 19:51 The_Red_Viper wrote: Mutas are retarded, as long as they stay the way they are there will be almost no terran that wins with bio vs zerg -.- And that comes from a zerg player (though it is not really important, everybody can see this i think^^)
i wonder how the MU would play out if widow mines activated faster? the overseer speed buff, while great, made widow mines really pathetic against mutas. with the reduced blast damage i think faster mines might keep the matchup interesting. not sure exactly how it would change mine dragging/mine spread or if it would buff zerg on the ground... zerg needs mutas but i definitely see how the huge balls can be a problem for any terran who falls even slightly behind
tvz was perfectly balanced until they nerfed widowmines for god knows what reason
winrates favored terran and bio mine camping a choke point outside a 4th base was ridiculous. pre-nerf mines are not the way to fix the matchup again, that would be a terrible regression. 3/3 alone means bio mine is still fine against ling bling on the ground, but mutas are a bigger problem now as terrans have observed.
Biomine vs muta/ling/bling is insanely snowbally, but still imo the most balanced and demanding match up in sc2 history
never understood that. to me it's the least "snowbally" matchup. most matchups are 1 engagement and then the snowball is instantly an avalanche. the fact that it's "snowballing" at all instead of "instant gg" is a credit to the matchup IMO. but that's just my opinion
I suppose, it's just it only really took one/two bad engagements and your opponent just rolls over you 5 minutes later
edit: You're completely right, we've all seen roach/hydra vs collosus and know just how fast a game can end
[Code A] Group K GSL S1 2014 Hydra vs. TRUE Game 2 (0-1) Map: Yeonsu
0:00 Hydra spawns in the top right TRUE spawns in the bottom left
2:00 pool first for both players Hatch first both players
3:00 drones and scouting lings queens
4:00 TRUE gets a ling in Hydra's base to scout and sees no gas
5:00 spine in the natural for Hydra scouting lings of Hydra are denied double gas for both players 3rd gas for Hydra Roach warren for Hydra evo for Hydra
On January 24 2014 19:51 The_Red_Viper wrote: Mutas are retarded, as long as they stay the way they are there will be almost no terran that wins with bio vs zerg -.- And that comes from a zerg player (though it is not really important, everybody can see this i think^^)
i wonder how the MU would play out if widow mines activated faster? the overseer speed buff, while great, made widow mines really pathetic against mutas. with the reduced blast damage i think faster mines might keep the matchup interesting. not sure exactly how it would change mine dragging/mine spread or if it would buff zerg on the ground... zerg needs mutas but i definitely see how the huge balls can be a problem for any terran who falls even slightly behind
tvz was perfectly balanced until they nerfed widowmines for god knows what reason
winrates favored terran and bio mine camping a choke point outside a 4th base was ridiculous. pre-nerf mines are not the way to fix the matchup again, that would be a terrible regression. 3/3 alone means bio mine is still fine against ling bling on the ground, but mutas are a bigger problem now as terrans have observed.
Sources on this? Its quite easy to write "win rates favoured Terran" but I remember the win rates as being 50%, I am not sure though. Would be nice if you provided statistics.
the source is my memory, i don't care to prove it or argue it because the actual point i was making was in the words i typed, not the statistic as i remember it... going back to bio mine in choke points pre-nerf would be enough to make me switch to protoss lol
Well that is a great source.. Ehhh.
He's kind of right though, when a few mines were set up in a choke point it became insanely hard to break out as zerg
I am not arguing about that at all. Im just saying that claiming that "win rates favoured Terran" and then saying "I dont have sources, just my head" is a bit weird way to argue.
what do you want me to do? i answered honestly. i don't have a source. i might be wrong. should i delete all my posts because i made a comment based on memory? i don't keep liquipedia tabs open 24/7 in case i get into a discussion on the forums...
On January 24 2014 19:51 The_Red_Viper wrote: Mutas are retarded, as long as they stay the way they are there will be almost no terran that wins with bio vs zerg -.- And that comes from a zerg player (though it is not really important, everybody can see this i think^^)
i wonder how the MU would play out if widow mines activated faster? the overseer speed buff, while great, made widow mines really pathetic against mutas. with the reduced blast damage i think faster mines might keep the matchup interesting. not sure exactly how it would change mine dragging/mine spread or if it would buff zerg on the ground... zerg needs mutas but i definitely see how the huge balls can be a problem for any terran who falls even slightly behind
tvz was perfectly balanced until they nerfed widowmines for god knows what reason
winrates favored terran and bio mine camping a choke point outside a 4th base was ridiculous. pre-nerf mines are not the way to fix the matchup again, that would be a terrible regression. 3/3 alone means bio mine is still fine against ling bling on the ground, but mutas are a bigger problem now as terrans have observed.
Sources on this? Its quite easy to write "win rates favoured Terran" but I remember the win rates as being 50%, I am not sure though. Would be nice if you provided statistics.
the source is my memory, i don't care to prove it or argue it because the actual point i was making was in the words i typed, not the statistic as i remember it... going back to bio mine in choke points pre-nerf would be enough to make me switch to protoss lol
Well that is a great source.. Ehhh.
He's kind of right though, when a few mines were set up in a choke point it became insanely hard to break out as zerg
I am not arguing about that at all. Im just saying that claiming that "win rates favoured Terran" and then saying "I dont have sources, just my head" is a bit weird way to argue.
what do you want me to do? i answered honestly. i don't have a source. i might be wrong. should i delete all my posts because i made a comment based on memory? i don't keep liquipedia tabs open 24/7 in case i get into a discussion on the forums...
EPT
Hydra spawns in the top right
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/teams/icons/9.png){kind=icon}
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Keajbgi.png)
