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On January 24 2014 20:06 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 20:05 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 24 2014 20:04 bo1b wrote:On January 24 2014 20:03 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 24 2014 20:01 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 19:59 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 24 2014 19:58 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 19:56 bo1b wrote:On January 24 2014 19:54 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 19:51 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Mutas are retarded, as long as they stay the way they are there will be almost no terran that wins with bio vs zerg -.-
And that comes from a zerg player (though it is not really important, everybody can see this i think^^)
i wonder how the MU would play out if widow mines activated faster? the overseer speed buff, while great, made widow mines really pathetic against mutas. with the reduced blast damage i think faster mines might keep the matchup interesting. not sure exactly how it would change mine dragging/mine spread or if it would buff zerg on the ground... zerg needs mutas but i definitely see how the huge balls can be a problem for any terran who falls even slightly behind tvz was perfectly balanced until they nerfed widowmines for god knows what reason winrates favored terran and bio mine camping a choke point outside a 4th base was ridiculous. pre-nerf mines are not the way to fix the matchup again, that would be a terrible regression. 3/3 alone means bio mine is still fine against ling bling on the ground, but mutas are a bigger problem now as terrans have observed. Sources on this? Its quite easy to write "win rates favoured Terran" but I remember the win rates as being 50%, I am not sure though. Would be nice if you provided statistics. the source is my memory, i don't care to prove it or argue it because the actual point i was making was in the words i typed, not the statistic as i remember it... going back to bio mine in choke points pre-nerf would be enough to make me switch to protoss lol Well that is a great source.. Ehhh. He's kind of right though, when a few mines were set up in a choke point it became insanely hard to break out as zerg I am not arguing about that at all. Im just saying that claiming that "win rates favoured Terran" and then saying "I dont have sources, just my head" is a bit weird way to argue. what do you want me to do? i answered honestly. i don't have a source. i might be wrong. should i delete all my posts because i made a comment based on memory? i don't keep liquipedia tabs open 24/7 in case i get into a discussion on the forums...
don't throw winrates out of the window so... I think everyone would agree that the push on the 4th on akilon was ridiculous ie.
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On January 24 2014 20:05 Dinotramp wrote:
cuz
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United States97276 Posts
On January 24 2014 20:05 Shellshock wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 20:02 Shellshock wrote:0:00  Hydra spawns in the top right TRUE spawns in the bottom left 2:00 pool first for both players Hatch first both players 3:00 drones and scouting lings queens 4:00 TRUE gets a ling in Hydra's base to scout and sees no gas 5:00 spine in the natural for Hydra scouting lings of Hydra are denied double gas for both players 3rd gas for Hydra Roach warren for Hydra evo for Hydra
6:00
2nd evo for Hydra
7:00 H 58 vs T 83
Lair for Hydra
+1 range attack for Hydra
double evo for TRUE
3rd base for TRUE
roaches for Hydra
TRUE kills an overlord with his queens
3rd base for Hydra
1-1 roach upgrades started for TRUE
Roach speed for Hydra
Lair on the way for TRUE
8:00 H 67 vs T 76
Roach warren finishes for TRUE
lings of TRUe get a surround on Hydra's roaches
more roaches spawn for Hydra
Hydra loses a queen
lings start attacking the building 3rd of Hydra
lings shift back and kill more roaches
9:00 H 76 vs T 82
lings bounce back and forth between the hatch and roaches
roaches started for TRUE
Roach speed for TRUE
Roaches finally pushed back the lings
10:00 H 89 vs T 89
+2 range attack for Hydra
even roach counts for both players
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On January 24 2014 20:03 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 20:00 bo1b wrote:On January 24 2014 19:58 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 19:56 bo1b wrote:On January 24 2014 19:54 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 19:51 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Mutas are retarded, as long as they stay the way they are there will be almost no terran that wins with bio vs zerg -.-
And that comes from a zerg player (though it is not really important, everybody can see this i think^^)
i wonder how the MU would play out if widow mines activated faster? the overseer speed buff, while great, made widow mines really pathetic against mutas. with the reduced blast damage i think faster mines might keep the matchup interesting. not sure exactly how it would change mine dragging/mine spread or if it would buff zerg on the ground... zerg needs mutas but i definitely see how the huge balls can be a problem for any terran who falls even slightly behind tvz was perfectly balanced until they nerfed widowmines for god knows what reason winrates favored terran and bio mine camping a choke point outside a 4th base was ridiculous. pre-nerf mines are not the way to fix the matchup again, that would be a terrible regression. 3/3 alone means bio mine is still fine against ling bling on the ground, but mutas are a bigger problem now as terrans have observed. Biomine vs muta/ling/bling is insanely snowbally, but still imo the most balanced and demanding match up in sc2 history never understood that. to me it's the least "snowbally" matchup. most matchups are 1 engagement and then the snowball is instantly an avalanche. the fact that it's "snowballing" at all instead of "instant gg" is a credit to the matchup IMO. but that's just my opinion Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 20:03 fx9 wrote:
Mutas and overlord speed were initially buffed to help Zerg against bio+WM.
With WM nerf, why should it stays as it is now?
Mutas are just too good of an unit across all MU currently. overseer speed buff was really more about not instantly losing every single overseer to stimmed marines if you ever have to retreat from a fight. the utility it added to muta vs mine probably went a little too far, but i still like being able to have detection with the mutas. i just think mutas should be a little weaker against mines. too easy to snipe them
Overseer speed is also mainly to let overseer stack on the pack of mutas to make sniping of mines easier.
And it also enables mutas to zip in and out of mineral lines without fearing of defensive mines.
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I wonder how often liquipedia staff have to edit that page
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Austria24422 Posts
Alright, there is no protoss playing. I can be here! Hoping for Dream and Ryung!
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On January 24 2014 20:07 gingerfluffmuff wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 20:06 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 20:05 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 24 2014 20:04 bo1b wrote:On January 24 2014 20:03 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 24 2014 20:01 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 19:59 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 24 2014 19:58 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 19:56 bo1b wrote:On January 24 2014 19:54 Waise wrote:
[quote]
i wonder how the MU would play out if widow mines activated faster? the overseer speed buff, while great, made widow mines really pathetic against mutas. with the reduced blast damage i think faster mines might keep the matchup interesting. not sure exactly how it would change mine dragging/mine spread or if it would buff zerg on the ground... zerg needs mutas but i definitely see how the huge balls can be a problem for any terran who falls even slightly behind tvz was perfectly balanced until they nerfed widowmines for god knows what reason winrates favored terran and bio mine camping a choke point outside a 4th base was ridiculous. pre-nerf mines are not the way to fix the matchup again, that would be a terrible regression. 3/3 alone means bio mine is still fine against ling bling on the ground, but mutas are a bigger problem now as terrans have observed. Sources on this? Its quite easy to write "win rates favoured Terran" but I remember the win rates as being 50%, I am not sure though. Would be nice if you provided statistics. the source is my memory, i don't care to prove it or argue it because the actual point i was making was in the words i typed, not the statistic as i remember it... going back to bio mine in choke points pre-nerf would be enough to make me switch to protoss lol Well that is a great source.. Ehhh. He's kind of right though, when a few mines were set up in a choke point it became insanely hard to break out as zerg I am not arguing about that at all. Im just saying that claiming that "win rates favoured Terran" and then saying "I dont have sources, just my head" is a bit weird way to argue. what do you want me to do? i answered honestly. i don't have a source. i might be wrong. should i delete all my posts because i made a comment based on memory? i don't keep liquipedia tabs open 24/7 in case i get into a discussion on the forums... You dont have a second screen for the pedia?
tried to buy one but newegg doesn't accept payment in esports dollars or starcraft passion
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On January 24 2014 20:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Alright, there is no protoss playing. I can be here! Hoping for Dream and Ryung!
stop jinxing it
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On January 24 2014 20:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Alright, there is no protoss playing. I can be here! Hoping for Dream and Ryung!
? they are in the losers match so that will be impossible
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United States97276 Posts
On January 24 2014 20:09 Shellshock wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 20:05 Shellshock wrote:On January 24 2014 20:02 Shellshock wrote:0:00 Hydra spawns in the top right TRUE spawns in the bottom left 2:00 pool first for both players Hatch first both players 3:00 drones and scouting lings queens 4:00 TRUE gets a ling in Hydra's base to scout and sees no gas 5:00 spine in the natural for Hydra scouting lings of Hydra are denied double gas for both players 3rd gas for Hydra Roach warren for Hydra evo for Hydra 6:00 2nd evo for Hydra 7:00 H 58 vs T 83 Lair for Hydra +1 range attack for Hydra double evo for TRUE 3rd base for TRUE roaches for Hydra TRUE kills an overlord with his queens 3rd base for Hydra 1-1 roach upgrades started for TRUE Roach speed for Hydra Lair on the way for TRUE 8:00 H 67 vs T 76 Roach warren finishes for TRUE lings of TRUe get a surround on Hydra's roaches more roaches spawn for Hydra Hydra loses a queen lings start attacking the building 3rd of Hydra lings shift back and kill more roaches 9:00 H 76 vs T 82 lings bounce back and forth between the hatch and roaches roaches started for TRUE Roach speed for TRUE Roaches finally pushed back the lings 10:00 H 89 vs T 89 +2 range attack for Hydra even roach counts for both players
11:00 H 105 vs T 105
TRUE just making more roaches
Hydra ahead 54 to 43 in drone count
TRUE moving across the map
overlords laying creep across the map
TRUE bringing queens with his army
12:00 H 148 vs T 140
Hydra defends the ramp at his 3rd
TRUE kills 2 overlords with his queens
13:00 H 158 vs T 158
TRUE ahead by 8 roaches
roach attack denied from the natural
TRUE attacking at the 3rd but is forced back again
roaches of TRUe get into the main of Hydra
Hydra comes down his ramp and attacks into TRUE's roaches
queen in the main of Hydra is killed
drones are being pulled by Hydra
14:00 H 96 vs T 137
Hydra loses all of his roaches
Hydra has lost 15 workers
Hydra ggs!
TRUE wins 2-0 and advances to Code S!
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![[image loading]](http://i.minus.com/ibco3KjJz2KiLD.gif)
numbah one!
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On January 24 2014 20:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Alright, there is no protoss playing. I can be here! Hoping for Dream and Ryung!
lol
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United States97276 Posts
Poll: Recommend Winners' Match game 2?★★★- Good game (5) 83% ★- Do not see this game no matter what (1) 17% ★★★★★- One of the best games this season (0) 0% ★★★★- Highly recommended game (0) 0% ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (0) 0% 6 total votes Your vote: Recommend Winners' Match game 2? (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
(Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game
(Vote): ★★★- Good game
(Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Winners' Match game 3?★- Do not see this game no matter what (3) 50% ★★★★★- One of the best games this season (1) 17% ★★★★- Highly recommended game (1) 17% ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1) 17% ★★★- Good game (0) 0% 6 total votes Your vote: Recommend Winners' Match game 3? (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
(Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game
(Vote): ★★★- Good game
(Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what
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Hydra not looking too great...
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hydra army split is pretty bad.
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That's the worst I've ever seen someone play and still top their group
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On January 24 2014 20:11 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 20:07 gingerfluffmuff wrote:On January 24 2014 20:06 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 20:05 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 24 2014 20:04 bo1b wrote:On January 24 2014 20:03 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 24 2014 20:01 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 19:59 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 24 2014 19:58 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 19:56 bo1b wrote:
[quote]
tvz was perfectly balanced until they nerfed widowmines for god knows what reason winrates favored terran and bio mine camping a choke point outside a 4th base was ridiculous. pre-nerf mines are not the way to fix the matchup again, that would be a terrible regression. 3/3 alone means bio mine is still fine against ling bling on the ground, but mutas are a bigger problem now as terrans have observed. Sources on this? Its quite easy to write "win rates favoured Terran" but I remember the win rates as being 50%, I am not sure though. Would be nice if you provided statistics. the source is my memory, i don't care to prove it or argue it because the actual point i was making was in the words i typed, not the statistic as i remember it... going back to bio mine in choke points pre-nerf would be enough to make me switch to protoss lol Well that is a great source.. Ehhh. He's kind of right though, when a few mines were set up in a choke point it became insanely hard to break out as zerg I am not arguing about that at all. Im just saying that claiming that "win rates favoured Terran" and then saying "I dont have sources, just my head" is a bit weird way to argue. what do you want me to do? i answered honestly. i don't have a source. i might be wrong. should i delete all my posts because i made a comment based on memory? i don't keep liquipedia tabs open 24/7 in case i get into a discussion on the forums... You dont have a second screen for the pedia? tried to buy one but newegg doesn't accept payment in esports dollars or starcraft passion
Have you tried to pay with reddit silv3r?
On January 24 2014 20:12 Dinotramp wrote:
That's the worst I've ever seen someone play and still top their group
i can feel you mate.
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On January 24 2014 20:09 fx9 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 20:03 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 20:00 bo1b wrote:On January 24 2014 19:58 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 19:56 bo1b wrote:On January 24 2014 19:54 Waise wrote:On January 24 2014 19:51 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Mutas are retarded, as long as they stay the way they are there will be almost no terran that wins with bio vs zerg -.-
And that comes from a zerg player (though it is not really important, everybody can see this i think^^)
i wonder how the MU would play out if widow mines activated faster? the overseer speed buff, while great, made widow mines really pathetic against mutas. with the reduced blast damage i think faster mines might keep the matchup interesting. not sure exactly how it would change mine dragging/mine spread or if it would buff zerg on the ground... zerg needs mutas but i definitely see how the huge balls can be a problem for any terran who falls even slightly behind tvz was perfectly balanced until they nerfed widowmines for god knows what reason winrates favored terran and bio mine camping a choke point outside a 4th base was ridiculous. pre-nerf mines are not the way to fix the matchup again, that would be a terrible regression. 3/3 alone means bio mine is still fine against ling bling on the ground, but mutas are a bigger problem now as terrans have observed. Biomine vs muta/ling/bling is insanely snowbally, but still imo the most balanced and demanding match up in sc2 history never understood that. to me it's the least "snowbally" matchup. most matchups are 1 engagement and then the snowball is instantly an avalanche. the fact that it's "snowballing" at all instead of "instant gg" is a credit to the matchup IMO. but that's just my opinion On January 24 2014 20:03 fx9 wrote:
Mutas and overlord speed were initially buffed to help Zerg against bio+WM.
With WM nerf, why should it stays as it is now?
Mutas are just too good of an unit across all MU currently. overseer speed buff was really more about not instantly losing every single overseer to stimmed marines if you ever have to retreat from a fight. the utility it added to muta vs mine probably went a little too far, but i still like being able to have detection with the mutas. i just think mutas should be a little weaker against mines. too easy to snipe them Overseer speed is also mainly to let overseer stack on the pack of mutas to make sniping of mines easier. And it also enables mutas to zip in and out of mineral lines without fearing of defensive mines. didn't i just say that? pretty sure i said it helped mutas snipe mines by adding mobile detection with the muta flock o_O i was just saying that not losing them to marines was the buff zerg "needed" whereas they didn't "need" the muta/mine buff as much
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Well, that was not expected.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/teams/icons/9.png){kind=icon}
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Keajbgi.png)
