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On November 19 2012 01:48 Scisyhp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 01:38 Dionyseus wrote:On November 19 2012 00:38 sdnnvs wrote:
Protoss need a big nerf, by the way ... No, the best zergs and terrans weren't here, while the three best protoss players were here. You are treating this like an invitational. Hint: It wasn't. All players that were here were here because they qualified. That means that the best zerg/terran players weren't here BECAUSE the best protoss players defeated about all of them in the qualifiers. Why do you think only 2 korean zergs were able to qualify, 0 korean terrans, yet 5 protosses?
Because few months ago when Korean qualifier took place Protoss had advantage over Z and T in Korea. Currently its not true anymore.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 19 2012 01:10 magnaflow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 01:01 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
well i guess the real world finals would be Code S or MLG finals skillwise. Those WCS finals just didnt have a homogenous skill-level.
I guess you can only solve that by inviting no koreans at all or mostly koreans (atleast 70-90%) MLG feels more prestigious to me which is what this event should have been all about but it turned out to be a $100k give away.
Is the GSL also a 50k giveaway? You could easily argue that getting past the qualifiers, WCS Korea, WCS Asia and then finally winning BWC is one of the toughest roads to date. Almost every good Korean player (with the exceptions of Mvp and MC who both dropped out) participated, meaning the competition was nothing short of brutal.
To call that a giveaway is not only ignorant, it's a bit disrespectful to what Parting just accompolished.
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I don't think it's that wrong to consider Parting the World Champion. It's Blizzard's biggest tournament and the highest prize money competition, so everyone wants to win it the most. Even though the Global Finals did not have the top 32 world players lineup, you have to think why that is the case.
Just recently we had the regional qualifiers where all the best players tried to qualify, be it from Korea, America, Europe, etc.. The Korean part of the qualification tournament was of course the tournament which was the hardest to win, pretty certainly even harder than the Global Finals (nerve issues aside). But next to all top players tried to win it and the best contenders qualified. And those were present at the Global Finals, which is imho reason enough this is the World Championship. Next to all the best players in the WORLD tried to get to the Global Finals.
If this means Parting is the best player or not is of no importance, though. It's probably not even the case, but can you say for every real sports that the World Champion is certainly the best on another day?
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On November 19 2012 01:48 Scisyhp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 01:38 Dionyseus wrote:On November 19 2012 00:38 sdnnvs wrote:
Protoss need a big nerf, by the way ... No, the best zergs and terrans weren't here, while the three best protoss players were here. You are treating this like an invitational. Hint: It wasn't. All players that were here were here because they qualified. That means that the best zerg/terran players weren't here BECAUSE the best protoss players defeated about all of them in the qualifiers. Why do you think only 2 korean zergs were able to qualify, 0 korean terrans, yet 5 protosses?
Protoss is "OP" in the early to mid game, especially Immortal-Sentry all in against Zerg. Then late game, the balance shifts over to the Zerg due to Broodlord-Infestors. If anything, Blizzard needs to make some radical changes to the race balance like they brought up during the interviews.
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On November 19 2012 01:35 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 01:01 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
well i guess the real world finals would be Code S or MLG finals skillwise. Those WCS finals just didnt have a homogenous skill-level.
I guess you can only solve that by inviting no koreans at all or mostly koreans (atleast 70-90%) Not sure if some of you understand the concept of a world championship. It's on the model of WCG, the World Cup, etc. The point is to have representatives from each country/region, whether that creates "homogeneous skill level" or not. The appeal of the tournament is not designed to be the fact that it's a competition of the 32 best players in the world. So you're whining without a valid reason to do so...so I guess you fit right in in a LR thread LOL.
When i watch a world championship in football the champion is without a doubt the worlds best. Because in the end the best teams are competing despite you have representatives of all regions. I just came to the realization that its not the case at WCS. Dunno whats whining about that. I didnt waste much time on that tournament so no hard feelings.
I asked about the finals too because i didnt watch them. but nobody bothers to answer, so i guess it was boring not worthy of meantioning.
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On November 19 2012 02:01 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 01:10 magnaflow wrote:On November 19 2012 01:01 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
well i guess the real world finals would be Code S or MLG finals skillwise. Those WCS finals just didnt have a homogenous skill-level.
I guess you can only solve that by inviting no koreans at all or mostly koreans (atleast 70-90%) MLG feels more prestigious to me which is what this event should have been all about but it turned out to be a $100k give away. Is the GSL also a 50k giveaway? You could easily argue that getting past the qualifiers, WCS Korea, WCS Asia and then finally winning BWC is one of the toughest roads to date. Almost every good Korean player (with the exceptions of Mvp and MC who both dropped out) participated, meaning the competition was nothing short of brutal. To call that a giveaway is not only ignorant, it's a bit disrespectful to what Parting just accompolished.
Certainly. I've used the analogy of playing minesweeper before and I'll say it again. The more landmines you have in a tournament the better.
Practically everyone in the GSL is a landmine; whereas, in the beginning there might be a lot of landmines in a tournament like WCG and this one, but once you pass the middle of the road you can start to go a little faster because there aren't so many and then you hit the landmines again.
I would like to see more tournaments that act like every spot is a mine.
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TBH, as the supposedly the biggest tournament of the year, this is a huge letdown production and viewer count wise. I don't think we ever hit 100k concurrent during the whole event, although that can be attributed to the bad time zone when the game was played. Still, in comparison, to TI2 and Riot's S2 Finals...... we're far far behind in terms of these 2 aspects even considering the live audience (the whole arena was definitely not filled) and the tv viewing count.
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Grtz Parting. Hopefully next year it is in Europe.
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In football, tennins, golf, F1, and many others, generaly the champion, is indeed the best performer. In SC2 it isn't. That sucks... a lot, because tournaments become kind of meaningless, and that's why people feel this was just 100k$ giveaway, since most people would be pretty divided between him, Mvp, Life, etc, as the true best player.
Still blame the game, that relies so heavily on luck, and the stupidly high skill ceiling and punishing of mistakes.
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On November 19 2012 02:27 Apolo wrote:
In football, tennins, golf, F1, and many others, generaly the champion, is indeed the best performer. In SC2 it isn't. That sucks... a lot, because tournaments become kind of meaningless, and that's why people feel this was just 100k$ giveaway, since most people would be pretty divided between him, Mvp, Life, etc, as the true best player.
Still blame the game, that relies so heavily on luck, and the stupidly high skill ceiling and punishing of mistakes.
This is wrong, even with your examples.
Football is so luck dependend if you get your goal (remember last champions league final Bayern vs Chelsea)
F1 it depends on your car. (also the champion is determined over many races, not one)
Every sport has luck factors, some more, some less. Some luck factors in conventional sports may not be even recognized.
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went to bed after rain lost. grats to parting! first huge win.
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On November 19 2012 01:16 SpikeStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 01:11 TheSir wrote:On November 19 2012 00:59 betaman wrote:
I really hope they revise the format of this competiton next year it was free money for semi decent NA players that would lose to the100th best Korean most of the time.
Would be nice if there was an open bracket, ie a format similar to IPL5 or an MLG, so that qualified players have an advantage but we still get the possibility of seeing great players that didnt qualify. To call it a world championships is laughable when so many of they worlds best players were missing. Uhmm if you change it in to a open bracket you shouldn't call it the world championships either because it would become a Korean Open Championship. They way Blizzard did it was good (if they would have dropped the direct seeds it would have been almost perfect) and it is used in all sports all over the world. People who think that a World Championship always have the best competition clearly dont understand the principle of a World Championship. Almost anyone in the world had a chance to enter, some didn't make it and some choose not to participate and thats it. The fact that there are better players in the world who weren't there doesn't mean it's not a World Championship. Maybe we europeans arent used to watch a world championship and have no one to root for after group stage^^ but in the end of a world championship you have a legitimate champion. At least in football it is like that. I dont feel it is like that in sc2
Not true, for example in football you also have European country's who are better then a lot of African, Asian etc country's but cant compete in the finals because Europe has only a certain amount of spots or had a difficult qualification pool. It's like this in any sport, especially in individual sports. In team sports it's less of a problem but there are always teams who dont make it to the finals while there are teams in the finals who are worse when you have regions to qualify with.
Thats why you always hear 'you cant beat people who aren't there' in sports and the only people who complain about such things are people who dont watch sports regular.
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On November 19 2012 02:27 Apolo wrote:
In football, tennins, golf, F1, and many others, generaly the champion, is indeed the best performer. In SC2 it isn't. That sucks... a lot, because tournaments become kind of meaningless, and that's why people feel this was just 100k$ giveaway, since most people would be pretty divided between him, Mvp, Life, etc, as the true best player.
Still blame the game, that relies so heavily on luck, and the stupidly high skill ceiling and punishing of mistakes.
In tennis, golf and F1 you dont even have a World Championship. Great examples!
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On November 19 2012 00:49 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 23:30 4ZakeN87 wrote:On November 18 2012 23:28 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On November 18 2012 22:37 maracuja123 wrote:
The event didnt feel epic because we didnt have enough foreigners after the groups phases. I mean, I would watch the tournament if Stephano, Scarlet or Nerchio were there, but they all felt apart.
Only if Idra had beat Rain. Koreans always dominate everything so long as they're not massive outnumbered. Why do you even watch Sc2 if you get bored by Koreans always winning? Well to be honest it is probably many that don´t because of it, few things are hurting the expansion of SC2 as much as the Korean dominance. =__= "Oh no the best players are beating the worse players, that is why our game is dying." It would be a problem if the Koreans WEREN'T dominating... How do people not understand this and continue with their biased and racist mentality? Fuck, so depressing.
Okay all retards that responded to this, read a moment and learn something for a change. I know you like Koreans, the best player should win, skill is holy etc. Guess what? All that is completely irrelevant for my statement.
That it is bad for SC2 that Korea is dominating completely is not an opinion, it is a fact. It is a matter of observing reality. If you are to buthurt to realize this you are delusional. It is bad for completely obvious reasons that should not even be required to explain. I will however start from the assumption that you are retarded just to be safe and do it anyway.
It it is a fact that every tournament that only have Koreans left drop their viewing numbers by 30-50%. <- This part here is same as bad. The fact that WCS EU had the highest viewing number a SC2 event ever had is also odd. How can that be?
To make things worse are the people that watch on TL very skilled oriented crowd. People that are here have almost all played RTS or are for one reason or another tactically oriented, this is not the case in average crowd.
If take the FIFA world championship for example. When Sweden playing something around 500-1000% more viewers are watching in Sweden compared to when other countries are playing. Let say that Mexico have a better team then Sweden, no one in Sweden are watching Mexico play, cause they plainly don´t give a fuck if they are better or not. Because they want to see the country they belong and relate to compete against the world. That is it .
So we know for a fact that it is hurting viewing numbers, we can with 100% certainty say that it is hurting the recruitment of the potential audience even more, and that highest viewing number ever achieved was in tournament with 0 Koreans. Which part of this is it that you want me to explain?
Every sport that is heavily dominated by one country is never going to be big. You guys watch landhockey a lot? You like it?What is your favorite player? We in Sweden think it is awesome you see, I watch my neighbouring city team play several times every year. No you don´t watch that? Well guess what, Sweden has won the world championship like 7 times the last 10 years.
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On November 19 2012 02:36 TheSir wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 01:16 SpikeStarcraft wrote:On November 19 2012 01:11 TheSir wrote:On November 19 2012 00:59 betaman wrote:
I really hope they revise the format of this competiton next year it was free money for semi decent NA players that would lose to the100th best Korean most of the time.
Would be nice if there was an open bracket, ie a format similar to IPL5 or an MLG, so that qualified players have an advantage but we still get the possibility of seeing great players that didnt qualify. To call it a world championships is laughable when so many of they worlds best players were missing. Uhmm if you change it in to a open bracket you shouldn't call it the world championships either because it would become a Korean Open Championship. They way Blizzard did it was good (if they would have dropped the direct seeds it would have been almost perfect) and it is used in all sports all over the world. People who think that a World Championship always have the best competition clearly dont understand the principle of a World Championship. Almost anyone in the world had a chance to enter, some didn't make it and some choose not to participate and thats it. The fact that there are better players in the world who weren't there doesn't mean it's not a World Championship. Maybe we europeans arent used to watch a world championship and have no one to root for after group stage^^ but in the end of a world championship you have a legitimate champion. At least in football it is like that. I dont feel it is like that in sc2 Not true, for example in football you also have European country's who are better then a lot of African, Asian etc country's but cant compete in the finals because Europe has only a certain amount of spots or had a difficult qualification pool. It's like this in any sport, especially in individual sports. In team sports it's less of a problem but there are always teams who dont make it to the finals while there are teams in the finals who are worse when you have regions to qualify with. Thats why you always hear 'you cant beat people who aren't there' in sports and the only people who complain about such things are people who dont watch sports regular.
Usually all the high level teams from europe qualify for a worldchampionship. if a team doesnt make it, its a big upset. but that means that they probably sucked at the qualification. Mid-class european teams may not make it and group stage is mostly easier at a world championship than the european counterpart. Nevertheless the brackets are harder at a world championship because brazil and argentina are there too. and some teams like japan, usa, paraguay, uruguay are pretty decent too.
At sc2 on the other hand it feels like every one of the top favourites except a few didnt made it. Which leads to less high level competition.
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On November 19 2012 02:45 4ZakeN87 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 00:49 Jealous wrote:On November 18 2012 23:30 4ZakeN87 wrote:On November 18 2012 23:28 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On November 18 2012 22:37 maracuja123 wrote:
The event didnt feel epic because we didnt have enough foreigners after the groups phases. I mean, I would watch the tournament if Stephano, Scarlet or Nerchio were there, but they all felt apart.
Only if Idra had beat Rain. Koreans always dominate everything so long as they're not massive outnumbered. Why do you even watch Sc2 if you get bored by Koreans always winning? Well to be honest it is probably many that don´t because of it, few things are hurting the expansion of SC2 as much as the Korean dominance. =__= "Oh no the best players are beating the worse players, that is why our game is dying." It would be a problem if the Koreans WEREN'T dominating... How do people not understand this and continue with their biased and racist mentality? Fuck, so depressing. Okay all retards that responded to this, read a moment and learn something for a change. I know you like Koreans, the best player should win, skill is holy etc. Guess what? All that is completely irrelevant for my statement. That it is bad for SC2 that Korea is dominating completely is not an opinion, it is a fact. I dont think it is this way, it is a matter of observing reality. If you are to buthurt to realize this you are delusional. It is bad for completely obvious reasons that should not even be required to explain. I will however start from the assumption that you all are retarded just to be safe and do it anyway. It it is a fact that every tournament that only have Koreans left drop their viewing numbers by 30-50%. <- This part here is same as bad. The fact that WCS EU it had they highest viewing number a SC2 event ever had is also odd. How can that be? To make things worse are the people that watch on TL very skilled oriented crowd. People that are here have almost all played RTS or are for one reason or another tactically oriented, this is not the case in average crowd. If take the FIFA world championship for example. When Sweden playing something around 500-1000% more viewers are watching in Sweden compared to when other countries are playing. Let say that Mexico have a better team then Sweden, no one in Sweden are watching Mexico play, cause they plainly don´t give a fuck if they are better or not. Because they want to see the country they belong and relate to compete against the world. That is it . So we know for a fact that it is hurting viewing numbers, we can with 100% certainty say that it is hurting the recruitment of the potential audience even more, and that highest viewing number ever achieved was in tournament with 0 Koreans. Which part of this is it that you want me to explain? Every sport that is heavily dominated by one country is never going to be big. You guys watch landhockey a lot? You like it?What is your favorite player? We in Sweden think it is awesome you see, I watch my neighbouring city team play several times every year. No you don´t watch that? Well guess what, Sweden has won the world championship like 7 times the last 10 years.
Basketball is dominated by the US with some EU players, yet it is still very popular.
Would it be better if more foreigners are competitive? Of course. But what can be done about it? Basketball might be more popular in Asia if more Asians were in the NBA. But it is not like you can just flip a switch and make that happen.
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On November 19 2012 02:53 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 02:45 4ZakeN87 wrote:On November 19 2012 00:49 Jealous wrote:On November 18 2012 23:30 4ZakeN87 wrote:On November 18 2012 23:28 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On November 18 2012 22:37 maracuja123 wrote:
The event didnt feel epic because we didnt have enough foreigners after the groups phases. I mean, I would watch the tournament if Stephano, Scarlet or Nerchio were there, but they all felt apart.
Only if Idra had beat Rain. Koreans always dominate everything so long as they're not massive outnumbered. Why do you even watch Sc2 if you get bored by Koreans always winning? Well to be honest it is probably many that don´t because of it, few things are hurting the expansion of SC2 as much as the Korean dominance. =__= "Oh no the best players are beating the worse players, that is why our game is dying." It would be a problem if the Koreans WEREN'T dominating... How do people not understand this and continue with their biased and racist mentality? Fuck, so depressing. Okay all retards that responded to this, read a moment and learn something for a change. I know you like Koreans, the best player should win, skill is holy etc. Guess what? All that is completely irrelevant for my statement. That it is bad for SC2 that Korea is dominating completely is not an opinion, it is a fact. I dont think it is this way, it is a matter of observing reality. If you are to buthurt to realize this you are delusional. It is bad for completely obvious reasons that should not even be required to explain. I will however start from the assumption that you all are retarded just to be safe and do it anyway. It it is a fact that every tournament that only have Koreans left drop their viewing numbers by 30-50%. <- This part here is same as bad. The fact that WCS EU it had they highest viewing number a SC2 event ever had is also odd. How can that be? To make things worse are the people that watch on TL very skilled oriented crowd. People that are here have almost all played RTS or are for one reason or another tactically oriented, this is not the case in average crowd. If take the FIFA world championship for example. When Sweden playing something around 500-1000% more viewers are watching in Sweden compared to when other countries are playing. Let say that Mexico have a better team then Sweden, no one in Sweden are watching Mexico play, cause they plainly don´t give a fuck if they are better or not. Because they want to see the country they belong and relate to compete against the world. That is it . So we know for a fact that it is hurting viewing numbers, we can with 100% certainty say that it is hurting the recruitment of the potential audience even more, and that highest viewing number ever achieved was in tournament with 0 Koreans. Which part of this is it that you want me to explain? Every sport that is heavily dominated by one country is never going to be big. You guys watch landhockey a lot? You like it?What is your favorite player? We in Sweden think it is awesome you see, I watch my neighbouring city team play several times every year. No you don´t watch that? Well guess what, Sweden has won the world championship like 7 times the last 10 years. Basketball is dominated by the US with some EU players, yet it is still very popular.
Okay, lets focus on this part.
So we know for a fact that it is hurting viewing numbers, we can with 100% certainty say that it is hurting the recruitment of the potential audience even more, and that highest viewing number ever achieved was in tournament with 0 Koreans.
So now, which part of that SC2 growth being limited by it being completely dominated by Korea is it that you people don´t get. Please try to not base your argument around "I think Life, Creator and MVP are all playing so nice", because it does not matter shit in the grander scheme.
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On November 19 2012 02:01 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 01:10 magnaflow wrote:On November 19 2012 01:01 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
well i guess the real world finals would be Code S or MLG finals skillwise. Those WCS finals just didnt have a homogenous skill-level.
I guess you can only solve that by inviting no koreans at all or mostly koreans (atleast 70-90%) MLG feels more prestigious to me which is what this event should have been all about but it turned out to be a $100k give away. Is the GSL also a 50k giveaway? You could easily argue that getting past the qualifiers, WCS Korea, WCS Asia and then finally winning BWC is one of the toughest roads to date. Almost every good Korean player (with the exceptions of Mvp and MC who both dropped out) participated, meaning the competition was nothing short of brutal. To call that a giveaway is not only ignorant, it's a bit disrespectful to what Parting just accompolished.
Pretty much this, this was probably the hardest tournament to date.
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On November 19 2012 02:45 4ZakeN87 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 00:49 Jealous wrote:On November 18 2012 23:30 4ZakeN87 wrote:On November 18 2012 23:28 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On November 18 2012 22:37 maracuja123 wrote:
The event didnt feel epic because we didnt have enough foreigners after the groups phases. I mean, I would watch the tournament if Stephano, Scarlet or Nerchio were there, but they all felt apart.
Only if Idra had beat Rain. Koreans always dominate everything so long as they're not massive outnumbered. Why do you even watch Sc2 if you get bored by Koreans always winning? Well to be honest it is probably many that don´t because of it, few things are hurting the expansion of SC2 as much as the Korean dominance. =__= "Oh no the best players are beating the worse players, that is why our game is dying." It would be a problem if the Koreans WEREN'T dominating... How do people not understand this and continue with their biased and racist mentality? Fuck, so depressing. Okay all retards that responded to this, read a moment and learn something for a change. I know you like Koreans, the best player should win, skill is holy etc. Guess what? All that is completely irrelevant for my statement. That it is bad for SC2 that Korea is dominating completely is not an opinion, it is a fact. I dont think it is this way, it is a matter of observing reality. If you are to buthurt to realize this you are delusional. It is bad for completely obvious reasons that should not even be required to explain. I will however start from the assumption that you are retarded just to be safe and do it anyway.
It it is a fact that every tournament that only have Koreans left drop their viewing numbers by 30-50%. <- This part here is same as bad. The fact that WCS EU it had they highest viewing number a SC2 event ever had is also odd. How can that be? To make things worse are the people that watch on TL very skilled oriented crowd. People that are here have almost all played RTS or are for one reason or another tactically oriented, this is not the case in average crowd. If take the FIFA world championship for example. When Sweden playing something around 500-1000% more viewers are watching in Sweden compared to when other countries are playing. Let say that Mexico have a better team then Sweden, no one in Sweden are watching Mexico play, cause they plainly don´t give a fuck if they are better or not. Because they want to see the country they belong and relate to compete against the world. That is it . So we know for a fact that it is hurting viewing numbers, we can with 100% certainty say that it is hurting the recruitment of the potential audience even more, and that highest viewing number ever achieved was in tournament with 0 Koreans. Which part of this is it that you want me to explain? Every sport that is heavily dominated by one country is never going to be big. You guys watch landhockey a lot? You like it?What is your favorite player? We in Sweden think it is awesome you see, I watch my neighbouring city team play several times every year. No you don´t watch that? Well guess what, Sweden has won the world championship like 7 times the last 10 years.
Barcelona and Madrid have more people tuning in world wide than there are people living in Spain. The US open and Australian open draw huge crowds despite a decade of European dominance (Male event obviously). People just like watching "stars" and the closer they are to home the better, but it doesn't stop people from tuning out as long as they see stars.. For example at IEM, people tuned out when MVP wasn't playing ( a mostly European tournament I might add). The numbers that were dropping out were comparable to a foreigner dropping out.
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Ok, I'll chime in on the "not feeling like a world championships event" thing. Wanna know why it isn't?
Because there were multiple reps from countries and the amount of seeds to each continental championship was uneven. China and Korea got 10 seeds each to WCS Asia. Germany got 4 seeds to WCS Europe, Denmark, Finland and Belgium only got one each. It's perfectly reasonable from a tournament standpoint, because Blizz wants a spectacular tournament, and that means making sure lots of Koreans show up, because they ARE the best. Does it make a good tournament? Yes. Does it make a world championship? No, because you get one country playing against itself in the finals. It was very obvious that Creator and PartinG were not playing to represent Korea. They were representing themselves. Thus, the entire "World Championship" idea is void.
The solution? Make it a teamleague format. Hold national qualifiers for each country's team - Let the top 8 players from each country represent them, and let them pick a coach. Then play it out similar to the GSTL, online or offline, doesn't matter. If it's too risky to do it online due to cheats, hold a few big events where you handle 1-2 groups at a time until the global finals where the Ro4 and the Finals go on in bo11 or something.
Would Korea basically autowin? Probably, but that's ok because 1) they already do that anyway and 2) It would FEEL like a world championship, because the final team would be KOREA's team, not PartinG or Creator as individuals.
Just my 2c obviously.
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EPT
