On September 28 2011 04:17 Alpina wrote: I don't get last game at all.. I mean Min places late expansion, get cannon rushed 3rd base and was forced to make a lot of lings but still was all the time ahead of Hero. And looked like Hero has no units at all compared to Min... Maybe I missed something?
He was droning behind it the entire time off 2base with queen, be barely made the lings needed to hold. It would have been a lot different if he had killed the 3rd hatch but because he didnt basically all he did was trade some expensive (relatively in the beginning game) cannons + pylon + zealots to kill a few zerglings.
All in all a fun team match to watch, thank you IPL arena for the lunch break enjoyment.
Yeah but Min had like 2x supply of Hero's, you won't see that often lol.. I mean usually protosses at 13min mark has quite a huge force..
Btw is there a Vod for a last game? I found but I can watch only full tourney again, can't select last game..
On September 28 2011 04:17 Apophenic wrote: omg Hero was so bad in that game. i don't know why but he was at least 60 supply behind the whole game. I think i didn't understand how he lost like that i want the replay of that match!
Cannon rush hurt Hero's econ, and it failed. That sets him back. He then focused a lot of his time microing his small army to put pressure knowing he was behind. Then he built a DT shrine instead of going colossus, which is what you should do when you see a double expand like that coming from Min, who is going to favor ground/light units. Poor hallucination scouting also didnt help. With Hero's econ behind, his army not doing anything, and getting DTs for some reason (basically meaning he thinks hes screwed and opts for DT surprise), hes going to be behind.
On September 28 2011 01:49 Skyline026 wrote: [quote]
Yes, he is a pro. Makes money playing a game we all love. And because he is a pro he should accept the fact that people are gonna judge him. When he wins he gets cheers, when he loses people are gonna hate. And those people will all be worse at this game than he is. Smile and let it go. Calling people out like this isnt the way to go in my opinion. And yes, i can have one of those darn things!
And he's not allowed to be offended when gold/plat players pretend to know why he lost better than he knows? He has every right to call somebody out, because that's what you're doing to him.
Protect those poor gold/plat opinions, but scream injustice when pros want to defend their own stances? Gimme a break.
Im not protecting anybody, the problem i have with his statement is the fact that because he is better at this game others should not be able to vent their feelings and opinions on the way he plays starcraft. He is allowed to be offended by these people. I just dont understand why he would be! With this reasoning, nobody not playing in the NBA should have an opinion on basketball, cause what do they know right?
Ret isn't saying your opinion does or doesn't matter.. He's saying your opinion is wrong. Which, hot damn, is spot on.
Opinions cannot be wrong.
If trolling: 4/10 If stupid: 2/10
Wasn't going to say anything until this post... Are you serious?
Opinion -- "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty." (dictionary.com)
You can believe or have an opinion about the existence of unicorns (or any number of things) but that opinion can definitely be wrong in relation to reality.
So you actually believe (c wut i did thar) that it is up to you to decide that what another person believes is wrong or right?
Staggering.
The truth value of a statement, belief or opinion is defined beyond an individual. I don't believe that it is within my capability or ability to define truth or to change reality to fit what I want. So no, it is not up to me to decide what is truth, what is right and what is wrong. But, that doesn't mean that an opinion can not be right or wrong when seen in relation to reality.
-______-;;
Edit: For example, if a murder occurs, you can have an opinion about what happened, who the killer was, etc. But that belief definitely has a truth value to it, a right and wrong. You could be right about who the killer is or wrong. Does this make sense?
Every arguement can be killed off simply by using extreme examples. The truth value does not exist in the original opinion about droning. I think you made too many drones (which tbh i dont know anything about and didnt judge at all since im the worst zerg in the world) is a statement which simply cannot be wrong. But that wasnt the original point either :D
have a few tips for you skyline.
1. go to amsterdam 2. smoke some green 3. chill the fuck out.
you can buy "green " in whole the netherlands, no need to go to amsterdam for it
On September 28 2011 04:17 Apophenic wrote: omg Hero was so bad in that game. i don't know why but he was at least 60 supply behind the whole game. I think i didn't understand how he lost like that i want the replay of that match!
Sentries 50/150 per 2 supply Archons 125/125 per 2 supply (250/250 for 4) Roaches 75/25 per 2 supply.
Stop taking PvZ supply as an indicator of who's ahead. Consider army values.
Add on Zerg getting the early economic lead and all that during the early/mid game, and you've got a relatively dead Protoss.
On September 28 2011 02:08 zarepath wrote: [quote] And he's not allowed to be offended when gold/plat players pretend to know why he lost better than he knows? He has every right to call somebody out, because that's what you're doing to him.
Protect those poor gold/plat opinions, but scream injustice when pros want to defend their own stances? Gimme a break.
Im not protecting anybody, the problem i have with his statement is the fact that because he is better at this game others should not be able to vent their feelings and opinions on the way he plays starcraft. He is allowed to be offended by these people. I just dont understand why he would be! With this reasoning, nobody not playing in the NBA should have an opinion on basketball, cause what do they know right?
Ret isn't saying your opinion does or doesn't matter.. He's saying your opinion is wrong. Which, hot damn, is spot on.
Opinions cannot be wrong.
If trolling: 4/10 If stupid: 2/10
Wasn't going to say anything until this post... Are you serious?
Opinion -- "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty." (dictionary.com)
You can believe or have an opinion about the existence of unicorns (or any number of things) but that opinion can definitely be wrong in relation to reality.
So you actually believe (c wut i did thar) that it is up to you to decide that what another person believes is wrong or right?
Staggering.
The truth value of a statement, belief or opinion is defined beyond an individual. I don't believe that it is within my capability or ability to define truth or to change reality to fit what I want. So no, it is not up to me to decide what is truth, what is right and what is wrong. But, that doesn't mean that an opinion can not be right or wrong when seen in relation to reality.
-______-;;
Edit: For example, if a murder occurs, you can have an opinion about what happened, who the killer was, etc. But that belief definitely has a truth value to it, a right and wrong. You could be right about who the killer is or wrong. Does this make sense?
Every arguement can be killed off simply by using extreme examples. The truth value does not exist in the original opinion about droning. I think you made too many drones (which tbh i dont know anything about and didnt judge at all since im the worst zerg in the world) is a statement which simply cannot be wrong. But that wasnt the original point either :D
have a few tips for you skyline.
1. go to amsterdam 2. smoke some green 3. chill the fuck out.
you can buy "green " in whole the netherlands, no need to go to amsterdam for it
and go Ret !
you can also buy it 'in whole the us'. wasnt really my point.
On September 28 2011 04:17 Apophenic wrote: omg Hero was so bad in that game. i don't know why but he was at least 60 supply behind the whole game. I think i didn't understand how he lost like that i want the replay of that match!
Sentries 50/150 per 2 supply Archons 125/125 per 2 supply (250/250 for 4) Roaches 75/25 per 2 supply.
Stop taking PvZ supply as an indicator of who's ahead. Consider army values.
Add on Zerg getting the early economic lead and all that during the early/mid game, and you've got a relatively dead Protoss.
On September 28 2011 02:08 zarepath wrote: [quote] And he's not allowed to be offended when gold/plat players pretend to know why he lost better than he knows? He has every right to call somebody out, because that's what you're doing to him.
Protect those poor gold/plat opinions, but scream injustice when pros want to defend their own stances? Gimme a break.
Im not protecting anybody, the problem i have with his statement is the fact that because he is better at this game others should not be able to vent their feelings and opinions on the way he plays starcraft. He is allowed to be offended by these people. I just dont understand why he would be! With this reasoning, nobody not playing in the NBA should have an opinion on basketball, cause what do they know right?
Ret isn't saying your opinion does or doesn't matter.. He's saying your opinion is wrong. Which, hot damn, is spot on.
Opinions cannot be wrong.
If trolling: 4/10 If stupid: 2/10
Wasn't going to say anything until this post... Are you serious?
Opinion -- "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty." (dictionary.com)
You can believe or have an opinion about the existence of unicorns (or any number of things) but that opinion can definitely be wrong in relation to reality.
So you actually believe (c wut i did thar) that it is up to you to decide that what another person believes is wrong or right?
Staggering.
The truth value of a statement, belief or opinion is defined beyond an individual. I don't believe that it is within my capability or ability to define truth or to change reality to fit what I want. So no, it is not up to me to decide what is truth, what is right and what is wrong. But, that doesn't mean that an opinion can not be right or wrong when seen in relation to reality.
-______-;;
Edit: For example, if a murder occurs, you can have an opinion about what happened, who the killer was, etc. But that belief definitely has a truth value to it, a right and wrong. You could be right about who the killer is or wrong. Does this make sense?
Every arguement can be killed off simply by using extreme examples. The truth value does not exist in the original opinion about droning. I think you made too many drones (which tbh i dont know anything about and didnt judge at all since im the worst zerg in the world) is a statement which simply cannot be wrong. But that wasnt the original point either :D
1. All real arguments deal with the extremes, if it can not stand to the extremes, then it is not a worthwhile argument. Also, there's nothing extreme about my example at all as it does not push the limits of the truth of an opinion so I think you are using this term incorrectly in terms of argumentation.
2. You are right, there is no real truth value around the original statement but that was not the focal point of my criticism. You said that opinions can not be wrong which is flat out wrong as I've demonstrated. Opinions can definitely be wrong when there is an objective reality to which to evaluate it against. There are some things (like this drone argument) that can't be described beyond an opinion but that doesn't change that you're still wrong.
3. The original point you were trying to make in regards to Ret's attitude is pretty silly. He's not trying to say that because you are not as good as him at the game, you should not have an opinion. He is saying that because you are not as good at the game, you should not be overly critical of his playstyle without a good basis for such as he has put in a large amount of time and thought into how and when he is going to make drones. If he does the same strategy and loses every single time, then maybe there's reason for criticism but obviously, his strategy works for him and posts results so we ought to be more reserved with our criticism. At least, I hope that's what he's saying and that's how I understood it (an opinion that could be right or wrong). =)
Im gonna skip 1 and 2 just because they are both so far beyond the original arguement it will be a whole different discussion, and i wanna watch the football after this :D
3.
the point i made towards his attitude is simply this, he disagree's with some random internet person about the strategy he used. I would have been fine with Ret stating he disagree's. Hell, even i disagree, cause it seems to be working for him. Ending a post the way he did telling people to shut up is what triggered my reaction. Telling people to shut up and calling them ignorant in the process is pretty messed up in my book.
You should really stop arguing semantics. It's not about an oppinion, it's about stating facts about the game of why a player loses or not - which is not up for a subjective discussion. However I wouldn't have used Rets wording myself, but the message in there is not about telling people if they can speak their oppinion on the game or not. He tells you that what they're speaking about the style is wrong. And I'm sure you can agree that one of the best BW players of all time outside Korea and one of the best current SC2 players do know a bit more about the game than a gold/platinum player.
On September 28 2011 02:26 Skyline026 wrote: [quote]
Im not protecting anybody, the problem i have with his statement is the fact that because he is better at this game others should not be able to vent their feelings and opinions on the way he plays starcraft. He is allowed to be offended by these people. I just dont understand why he would be! With this reasoning, nobody not playing in the NBA should have an opinion on basketball, cause what do they know right?
Ret isn't saying your opinion does or doesn't matter.. He's saying your opinion is wrong. Which, hot damn, is spot on.
Opinions cannot be wrong.
If trolling: 4/10 If stupid: 2/10
Wasn't going to say anything until this post... Are you serious?
Opinion -- "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty." (dictionary.com)
You can believe or have an opinion about the existence of unicorns (or any number of things) but that opinion can definitely be wrong in relation to reality.
So you actually believe (c wut i did thar) that it is up to you to decide that what another person believes is wrong or right?
Staggering.
The truth value of a statement, belief or opinion is defined beyond an individual. I don't believe that it is within my capability or ability to define truth or to change reality to fit what I want. So no, it is not up to me to decide what is truth, what is right and what is wrong. But, that doesn't mean that an opinion can not be right or wrong when seen in relation to reality.
-______-;;
Edit: For example, if a murder occurs, you can have an opinion about what happened, who the killer was, etc. But that belief definitely has a truth value to it, a right and wrong. You could be right about who the killer is or wrong. Does this make sense?
Every arguement can be killed off simply by using extreme examples. The truth value does not exist in the original opinion about droning. I think you made too many drones (which tbh i dont know anything about and didnt judge at all since im the worst zerg in the world) is a statement which simply cannot be wrong. But that wasnt the original point either :D
1. All real arguments deal with the extremes, if it can not stand to the extremes, then it is not a worthwhile argument. Also, there's nothing extreme about my example at all as it does not push the limits of the truth of an opinion so I think you are using this term incorrectly in terms of argumentation.
2. You are right, there is no real truth value around the original statement but that was not the focal point of my criticism. You said that opinions can not be wrong which is flat out wrong as I've demonstrated. Opinions can definitely be wrong when there is an objective reality to which to evaluate it against. There are some things (like this drone argument) that can't be described beyond an opinion but that doesn't change that you're still wrong.
3. The original point you were trying to make in regards to Ret's attitude is pretty silly. He's not trying to say that because you are not as good as him at the game, you should not have an opinion. He is saying that because you are not as good at the game, you should not be overly critical of his playstyle without a good basis for such as he has put in a large amount of time and thought into how and when he is going to make drones. If he does the same strategy and loses every single time, then maybe there's reason for criticism but obviously, his strategy works for him and posts results so we ought to be more reserved with our criticism. At least, I hope that's what he's saying and that's how I understood it (an opinion that could be right or wrong). =)
Im gonna skip 1 and 2 just because they are both so far beyond the original arguement it will be a whole different discussion, and i wanna watch the football after this :D
3.
the point i made towards his attitude is simply this, he disagree's with some random internet person about the strategy he used. I would have been fine with Ret stating he disagree's. Hell, even i disagree, cause it seems to be working for him. Ending a post the way he did telling people to shut up is what triggered my reaction. Telling people to shut up and calling them ignorant in the process is pretty messed up in my book.
You should really stop arguing semantics. It's not about an oppinion, it's about stating facts about the game of why a player loses or not - which is not up for a subjective discussion. However I wouldn't have used Rets wording myself, but the message in there is not about telling people if they can speak their oppinion on the game or not. He tells you that what they're speaking about the style is wrong. And I'm sure you can agree that one of the best BW players of all time outside Korea and one of the best current SC2 players do know a bit more about the game than a gold/platinum player.
EPT
