EPT[GSL March] Code S Ro16 Day 2 - Page 71
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crms
United States11933 Posts
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esaul17
Canada547 Posts
On March 06 2011 11:24 bennyaus wrote: Protoss have always been strong, it was the players that were weak...prior to this GSL there was really no top class Protoss besides MC in Code S, but now at least some of the others are showing good games (Ironically it is San and Anypro, who would've predicted that!). Also, this is their second strong run as oGsMC won the 3rd GSL.... MC won the 3rd GSL open, but Protoss did not dominate it. Just like a Z won the 1st and 2nd, but Z players were not heavily represented in the Ro4 or Ro8. This is the first season where the Round of 8 is showing some level of Protoss dominance. That is what is exciting me, not just a single P player bucking the trend. | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
 Such awesome drop play nullified because he didn't have 3-4 corrupters. Really made me cry a bit inside.Also, so happy for Lyn as a longtime WC3 player. He's getting better and better. | ||
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mierin
United States4945 Posts
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My_Kaiser
Afghanistan151 Posts
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frucisky
Singapore2170 Posts
On March 06 2011 21:56 My_Kaiser wrote: I don't think that San was outplayed on the 3rd set by the wind. The Wind showed us what is the right think to do against protoss. But San actually handle the drop quite well. He lost his gold expo but he didn't lose much to the drop( warpgates, stargates still there). He continued his DT harassment and micro really well. I think Artosis was too excited that the Zerg is finally doing the right way to due with Protoss that he mislead the viewers to think that San was outplayed. He wasn't outplayed. Its just that TheWind played really really well except for a few minor yet CRITICAL errors. So, its natural to feel disappointed to lose him lose. San plays a very safe and solid build but I am one who appreciates creative play much more. | ||
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Figgy
Canada1788 Posts
On March 05 2011 17:46 flexy wrote: It seems incredibly inbalanced for Zerg and Terran players on the new maps.. hopefully blizzard can get all the late game balances down As much as people will probably disagree with me on this... I think we just need the old maps back just without close positions. These larger maps really favor protoss way too much, especially against Zerg. Not only that but we have a lot less interesting games this season as compared to smaller maps. (I guess the gstl makes up for this) The game feels VERY balanced to me on ladder right now when close positions aren't a factor, especially when you consider the vetoes. Larger maps throw the balance way out of scale because the late games of all the races are way off track to ever become balanced. A HT nerf won't change that. It's not that blizzard needs to do something, blizzard has been doing a great job addressing balance issues. It's that we need to revert back to old maps... | ||
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RifleCow
Canada637 Posts
On March 07 2011 01:10 Figgy wrote: As much as people will probably disagree with me on this... I think we just need the old maps back just without close positions. These larger maps really favor protoss way too much, especially against Zerg. Not only that but we have a lot less interesting games this season as compared to smaller maps. (I guess the gstl makes up for this) The game feels VERY balanced to me on ladder right now when close positions aren't a factor, especially when you consider the vetoes. Larger maps throw the balance way out of scale because the late games of all the races are way off track to ever become balanced. A HT nerf won't change that. It's not that blizzard needs to do something, blizzard has been doing a great job addressing balance issues. It's that we need to revert back to old maps... Really? You think that this season's games were worse than previous... I think for the first time this season we had pretty much epic games almost everyday. Remember the old maps, with the constant 2 rax all-ins by Terran? The two reasons for this are maps and player skill. I think both terran and zerg need to adapt to these maps; obviously, protoss is best equiped right now due to warpgate mechanic. | ||
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Figgy
Canada1788 Posts
On March 07 2011 01:32 RifleCow wrote: Really? You think that this season's games were worse than previous... I think for the first time this season we had pretty much epic games almost everyday. Remember the old maps, with the constant 2 rax all-ins by Terran? The two reasons for this are maps and player skill. I think both terran and zerg need to adapt to these maps; obviously, protoss is best equiped right now due to warpgate mechanic. Whaaaaaa? Do you even remember watching any of those 2 rax games? The micro fights were insane, especially with Marineking VS Kyrix. Right now a lot of the games we are getting is Toss turtling on 2 base (3 with the stupid map that has a super safe 3rd) and moving out with a 200/200 deathball and crushing zergs on one push. This isn't BW style, and this isn't fun or interesting to watch. PvT has turned into Toss Deathball and Bio/Vikings doing a position dance around the map after ignoring each other for 20 minutes and getting into a single clash at the end of it. With maps that are this large it simply isn't possible for the Terran to put any early pressure on anymore especially when the expansions are super, super safe and it's really hurting the match up as a viewer. Code S has been absolutely terrible. Code A is showing us some nice games thanks to the TvTs which are still exciting on the large map pool but seriously, with these new maps every single game with a Protoss is not only going to be unbalanced to shit (At least vs Z, still not sure about T yet) but also boring as hell. | ||
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RifleCow
Canada637 Posts
On March 07 2011 02:23 Figgy wrote: Whaaaaaa? Do you even remember watching any of those 2 rax games? The micro fights were insane, especially with Marineking VS Kyrix. Right now a lot of the games we are getting is Toss turtling on 2 base (3 with the stupid map that has a super safe 3rd) and moving out with a 200/200 deathball and crushing zergs on one push. This isn't BW style, and this isn't fun or interesting to watch. PvT has turned into Toss Deathball and Marine Bio/Vikings rotating around the map after ignoring each other for 20 minutes and getting into a single clash at the end of it. With maps that are this large it simply isn't possible for the Terran to put any early pressure on anymore especially when the expansions are super, super safe and it's really hurting the match up as a viewer. Code S has been absolutely terrible. Code A is showing us some nice games thanks to the TvTs which are still exciting on the large map pool but seriously, with these new maps every single game with a Protoss is not only going to be unbalanced to shit (At least vs Z, still not sure about T yet) but also boring as hell. When MarineKing first did it, it was amazing due to the fact it was new. But, when it turned out thtat 2rax aggression had little to no consequences to the economy of the terran. If zerg doesnt prepare they lose but if they do prepare then whatever, no hurt to the terran; that kind of takes the fun out of it. Larger maps force those that all-in to be completely dedicated to it, making it alot more exciting. Secondly, the "ignoring each other" for 20 minutes is just wrong. In fact, by moving back and forth the terran and protoss are continously contending positions and forcing the other player into dedicating to army and not expanding. This constant army movement is what defined high level BW matches, and is a large part of the reason why foreigners could simply never catch up to the koreans because the koreans could feign pressure so well. Also, a single clash has almost never ended the game on the new maps because there is actually time to reinforce. A single clash ending games, only occurs like you describe it on shitty maps like steppes of war or delta quandrant. Anyways, maybe it is imbalanced now, but many new styles look promising to potentially solve this. The mass mutalisk style with mass spine crawler delay seems quite powerful. Additionally, moon's use of hydralisk drop is also very interesting as well. For terran, everyone has been saying mech is the way to go. So you cannot really say its imbalanced until these styles are properly explored. All I know is that I much prefer watching games on these large maps than the blizzard maps. In fact, IEM was alot less interesting to me than GSL for this exact reason. | ||
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Figgy
Canada1788 Posts
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RifleCow
Canada637 Posts
On March 07 2011 02:38 Figgy wrote: The constant army movement with BW was awesome because it was all over the map. These large deathball clashes happen in a single location and when someone wins they push into an expansion. It isn't even comparable... Well obviously when players are still playing 2base vs 2base, this is how it turns out. But you have players like MC or Ace who whenever they win, they just expand. Then the game becomes shutting down expansions. I have never seen terran even expand past their first 2 bases in GSL yet, maybe this is why they're getting destroyed? | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8324 Posts
On March 07 2011 01:10 Figgy wrote: As much as people will probably disagree with me on this... I think we just need the old maps back just without close positions. These larger maps really favor protoss way too much, especially against Zerg. Not only that but we have a lot less interesting games this season as compared to smaller maps. (I guess the gstl makes up for this) The game feels VERY balanced to me on ladder right now when close positions aren't a factor, especially when you consider the vetoes. Larger maps throw the balance way out of scale because the late games of all the races are way off track to ever become balanced. A HT nerf won't change that. It's not that blizzard needs to do something, blizzard has been doing a great job addressing balance issues. It's that we need to revert back to old maps... So let me get this strait... You say "the late games of all the races are way off track", and your solution to that, is not to gradually work at balancing them... but nerfing the map pool so that it never gets to that stage of late game? Am I understanding you correctly? Because there are many, MANY things wrong with that. Most glaring for me are these: 1. That mode of thinking will eventually produce a very stagnantg meta due to a lack of changing maps, and no variation in the postions. 2. That lowers the skill cap due to never getting to see real lategame play. 3. The HT nerf is just one step in the right dirrection, which is ballancing the races rather than rigging the map pool to produce a certain outcome. I personally do think that Protoss is overpowered versus terran late game right now, but I'm not so positive that it is versus zerg. Personally I think it is the exponential increase of dicciculty of zerg mechanics as the game grows on, which protoss doesn't have which produces the semblance of imbalance. That's kind of always been the problem with zerg, but zergs like Nestea werte able to overrcome it in the past, and I think they'll be able to soon here as well. For example, lets say it's sixbase zerg vs fourbase toss. That's A TON of larva to spawn, and creep to spread. Meanwhile Toss only needs to continue warping in and building the odd collosus. It's tough stuff absolutely, and maybe blizzard should make super late game zerg a bit easier but I'd say that the units themselves are fairly balanced in that matchup, with the possible exception being ultras could use a buff. Onto the games at hand though, Sanzenith is just such a baller. Really enjoying his games. Looking forward to HuK tonight too. | ||
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