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On March 06 2011 03:10 PartyBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 02:56 Turgid wrote:On March 05 2011 23:47 Shockk wrote:On March 05 2011 20:10 Odoakar wrote:
I'm not talking about the quality of the games, as this is the first GSL where I've watched only a few of games. It's the worst GSL ever because I really don't give a flying fuck about Lyn and San and players like them. They have no backstory, no history, nothing for a viewer to actually connect with them. This has been beaten to death, and incontrol on SotG often talks about that.
Tester for example has a history, he was here at the start of beta, viewers could grow fond of him and his play style and would like to see him winning. When you have some unknowns or players who month ago cannon blocked his own nexus winning...I really have no will to watch that. So you'd rather watch veteran (beta) players fail to adapt to new styles (and losing in early tournament stages) than previously unknown guys greatly improving and showing the highest quality of play of all GLS seasons so far? If that's your taste, go ahead, enjoy mediocre play and miss out on a lot of actually good games. If you're just in it for the "history" or "back story" and not for the quality of the games, I'm sure there's a lot of content with mucher lower quality but more drama and chitchat available for you. No need to complain about the GSL then. On top of that, this GSL is ALL drama. This GSL will BE the backstory to future GSLs. True, but I can't help but share the sentiment of shockk's post not about the stupid backstory, but just looking at the game quality. It's not like I'm against new players coming out from Code A and dominating, it's that I'd like to see some fantastic games - and with the exception of San v TheWinD in game 3, ALL the games today sucked either extremely hard or were mediocre at best...since when should mediocre or terrible play (i.e. sC) get to be rewarded with a round of 8 finish?
I didn't see all the games from tonight but I'd say on the whole the level of play has been much higher than in GSL January. It's been very exciting.
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As a Protoss player I am excited to finally see Protoss do well. In the past, by the time we got to the round of 4, and especially the finals, it was almost all TvT with a TvZ or two tossed in.
I do find it odd that after Protoss finally has one good GSL run that everyone wants to see them nerfed into oblivion whereas Terran had dominated for ages and said tournament results didn't mean anything.
Not to say Protoss may not need a nerf though, or at least Zerg a buff.
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On March 06 2011 05:44 esaul17 wrote:
As a Protoss player I am excited to finally see Protoss do well. In the past, by the time we got to the round of 4, and especially the finals, it was almost all TvT with a TvZ or two tossed in.
I do find it odd that after Protoss finally has one good GSL run that everyone wants to see them nerfed into oblivion whereas Terran had dominated for ages and said tournament results didn't mean anything.
Not to say Protoss may not need a nerf though, or at least Zerg a buff.
The thing about Terran domination is, a lot of it had to do with the terrible map selection, and everyone knew it. Nobody liked watching Terran rush down Zerg on Delta Quadrant / close Meta, or take a free Zerg expo using the ledge in LT... But on the larger maps, the games seemed much more even.
Now that the maps have given everyone breathing room, more "Brood War-esque", it's showing how dominant the Protoss late game is, particularly against Zerg.
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On March 06 2011 06:11 cordlc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 05:44 esaul17 wrote:
As a Protoss player I am excited to finally see Protoss do well. In the past, by the time we got to the round of 4, and especially the finals, it was almost all TvT with a TvZ or two tossed in.
I do find it odd that after Protoss finally has one good GSL run that everyone wants to see them nerfed into oblivion whereas Terran had dominated for ages and said tournament results didn't mean anything.
Not to say Protoss may not need a nerf though, or at least Zerg a buff. The thing about Terran domination is, a lot of it had to do with the terrible map selection, and everyone knew it. Nobody liked watching Terran rush down Zerg on Delta Quadrant / close Meta, or take a free Zerg expo using the ledge in LT... But on the larger maps, the games seemed much more even. Now that the maps have given everyone breathing room, more "Brood War-esque", it's showing how dominant the Protoss late game is, particularly against Zerg.
Fair enough. It just seemed that, despite "everyone knowing it" Terran players just told everyone else to stop QQing, and now that they can't insta-win half their games they suddenly seem to think it fine to QQ.
I agree that Zerg feels week in both match ups (though as a gold league noob, I find a big muta ball really tough). That said, in games like San vs Nestea or San vs TheWind, or HuK vs Revival, I did feel like the P player did outplay their Z opponents (Ultras vs Immortals, Void Rays vs Brood Lord-Roach). But there are times where Protoss just seems to read a certain critical mass and Zerg need a near infinite wave of reinforcements to deal with it.
I am not too convinced that PvT is that imbalanced though. I feel like a lot of top T player got where they were due to Protoss not being able to forcefield their ramp against stim timing pushes and such, and now that T can't just win the whole game with MMM they are being forced to adapt. A tier 1 army shouldn't be viable against fully upgraded T3.
But that is enough about balance. I was mainly just expressing how, as a P player, it is nice to see Protoss actually doing well for once in a GSL. It is fun seeing your race play games, so having 3 of the 4 Ro8 matches including a P player is a nice change of pace compared to the previous T domination.
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wow man just saw the vods, can't believe how good san and thewind have gotten, that was one of the best pvz's i've seen
and i can't believe thewind just barely lost it to literally 2 void rays and got finished off by like 7-8 red health stalkers, he had that game. so good, when does he even practice being a coach and all, let alone practice to this level, wow
superb match, totally not expected
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On March 06 2011 06:43 anatem wrote:
wow man just saw the vods, can't believe how good san and thewind have gotten, that was one of the best pvz's i've seen
and i can't believe thewind just barely lost it to literally 2 void rays and got finished off by like 7-8 red health stalkers, he had that game. so good, when does he even practice being a coach and all, let alone practice to this level, wow
superb match, totally not expected
That was definitely the game of the night. I was really rooting for San but was sure he lost it at more than a few points there.
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I feel like TheWind really outplayed San, but he just lost due to race inefficiency (although he made it damn close regardless). It makes me a bit sad, but ggs nonetheless.
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On March 06 2011 06:49 hmunkey wrote:
I feel like TheWind really outplayed San, but he just lost due to race inefficiency (although he made it damn close regardless). It makes me a bit sad, but ggs nonetheless.
He lost because of his wrong decision not to remake some hydras to counter voidrays, and that's it. Plus, sanzenith made an insanely good decision by crushing spines with DTs.
It was a great game though. I think it was good balance-wise. Can't find a way to blame balance for manzenith's win.
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On March 06 2011 06:39 esaul17 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 06:11 cordlc wrote:On March 06 2011 05:44 esaul17 wrote:
As a Protoss player I am excited to finally see Protoss do well. In the past, by the time we got to the round of 4, and especially the finals, it was almost all TvT with a TvZ or two tossed in.
I do find it odd that after Protoss finally has one good GSL run that everyone wants to see them nerfed into oblivion whereas Terran had dominated for ages and said tournament results didn't mean anything.
Not to say Protoss may not need a nerf though, or at least Zerg a buff. The thing about Terran domination is, a lot of it had to do with the terrible map selection, and everyone knew it. Nobody liked watching Terran rush down Zerg on Delta Quadrant / close Meta, or take a free Zerg expo using the ledge in LT... But on the larger maps, the games seemed much more even. Now that the maps have given everyone breathing room, more "Brood War-esque", it's showing how dominant the Protoss late game is, particularly against Zerg. Fair enough. It just seemed that, despite "everyone knowing it" Terran players just told everyone else to stop QQing, and now that they can't insta-win half their games they suddenly seem to think it fine to QQ. I agree that Zerg feels week in both match ups (though as a gold league noob, I find a big muta ball really tough). That said, in games like San vs Nestea or San vs TheWind, or HuK vs Revival, I did feel like the P player did outplay their Z opponents (Ultras vs Immortals, Void Rays vs Brood Lord-Roach). But there are times where Protoss just seems to read a certain critical mass and Zerg need a near infinite wave of reinforcements to deal with it. I am not too convinced that PvT is that imbalanced though. I feel like a lot of top T player got where they were due to Protoss not being able to forcefield their ramp against stim timing pushes and such, and now that T can't just win the whole game with MMM they are being forced to adapt. A tier 1 army shouldn't be viable against fully upgraded T3. But that is enough about balance. I was mainly just expressing how, as a P player, it is nice to see Protoss actually doing well for once in a GSL. It is fun seeing your race play games, so having 3 of the 4 Ro8 matches including a P player is a nice change of pace compared to the previous T domination.
Yeah, those that defended maps like Steppes, Delta or close Metal weren't worth listening to anyway. Honestly though, many Terran (those that favored macro) didn't like playing on those maps either, even if it were a free win, because it forces you into that specific playstyle.
I'm Terran myself, and do think PvT is looking slightly toss favored, but wouldn't be surprised if Terran were just missing something, as the matchup in these huge maps is still unexplored. Shame Mvp was knocked out early, was hoping the hero Terran would show us the way.
As for the Tier 1 > Tier 3 sentiment, I get it, but understand that Terran aren't doing it out of laziness or something, the other units just don't seem to work as well.
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Does anyone know whether Tasteless is translating correctly or just making up stuff because John is somehow missing?
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On March 06 2011 07:20 cordlc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 06:39 esaul17 wrote:On March 06 2011 06:11 cordlc wrote:On March 06 2011 05:44 esaul17 wrote:
As a Protoss player I am excited to finally see Protoss do well. In the past, by the time we got to the round of 4, and especially the finals, it was almost all TvT with a TvZ or two tossed in.
I do find it odd that after Protoss finally has one good GSL run that everyone wants to see them nerfed into oblivion whereas Terran had dominated for ages and said tournament results didn't mean anything.
Not to say Protoss may not need a nerf though, or at least Zerg a buff. The thing about Terran domination is, a lot of it had to do with the terrible map selection, and everyone knew it. Nobody liked watching Terran rush down Zerg on Delta Quadrant / close Meta, or take a free Zerg expo using the ledge in LT... But on the larger maps, the games seemed much more even. Now that the maps have given everyone breathing room, more "Brood War-esque", it's showing how dominant the Protoss late game is, particularly against Zerg. Fair enough. It just seemed that, despite "everyone knowing it" Terran players just told everyone else to stop QQing, and now that they can't insta-win half their games they suddenly seem to think it fine to QQ. I agree that Zerg feels week in both match ups (though as a gold league noob, I find a big muta ball really tough). That said, in games like San vs Nestea or San vs TheWind, or HuK vs Revival, I did feel like the P player did outplay their Z opponents (Ultras vs Immortals, Void Rays vs Brood Lord-Roach). But there are times where Protoss just seems to read a certain critical mass and Zerg need a near infinite wave of reinforcements to deal with it. I am not too convinced that PvT is that imbalanced though. I feel like a lot of top T player got where they were due to Protoss not being able to forcefield their ramp against stim timing pushes and such, and now that T can't just win the whole game with MMM they are being forced to adapt. A tier 1 army shouldn't be viable against fully upgraded T3. But that is enough about balance. I was mainly just expressing how, as a P player, it is nice to see Protoss actually doing well for once in a GSL. It is fun seeing your race play games, so having 3 of the 4 Ro8 matches including a P player is a nice change of pace compared to the previous T domination. Yeah, those that defended maps like Steppes, Delta or close Metal weren't worth listening to anyway. Honestly though, many Terran (those that favored macro) didn't like playing on those maps either, even if it were a free win, because it forces you into that specific playstyle. I'm Terran myself, and do think PvT is looking slightly toss favored, but wouldn't be surprised if Terran were just missing something, as the matchup in these huge maps is still unexplored. Shame Mvp was knocked out early, was hoping the hero Terran would show us the way. As for the Tier 1 > Tier 3 sentiment, I get it, but understand that Terran aren't doing it out of laziness or something, the other units just don't seem to work as well.
Yeah, I have heard the argument that mech just fails against Toss. It would be nice to see more of it, either via patching or metagame shifts. Which is why I am disappointed at Blizzard just hitting Templar with the nerf stick. Templar are pretty abysmal against mech and anything that isn't mass bio, so I wish Blizzard patched to improve T mech in the late game against P, opposed to just nerf P's tier 3 because it is too strong against T's tier 1. Just feels like blizzard wants P to go collosi every match and T to go MMM every match (and Z to QQ every match).
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On March 06 2011 06:53 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 06:49 hmunkey wrote:
I feel like TheWind really outplayed San, but he just lost due to race inefficiency (although he made it damn close regardless). It makes me a bit sad, but ggs nonetheless. He lost because of his wrong decision not to remake some hydras to counter voidrays, and that's it. Plus, sanzenith made an insanely good decision by crushing spines with DTs. It was a great game though. I think it was good balance-wise. Can't find a way to blame balance for manzenith's win.
Would be cool if each unit had stats so you could see how much total damage it had done in a game. I'm sure those 3 Void Rays would've rivalled the most manly Colossus in that match.
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On March 06 2011 04:02 Qaatar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 03:37 imbs wrote:On March 06 2011 02:06 mordk wrote:On March 06 2011 01:39 beat farm wrote:On March 05 2011 17:31 bokeevboke wrote:On March 05 2011 17:22 dunc wrote:On March 05 2011 17:21 bokeevboke wrote:On March 05 2011 17:16 Figgy wrote:
No one is saying Idra is a bad player. He just isn't as good as the other Code S mainly thanks to his insanely predicable playstyle and unwillingness to react to his opponents. And Jinro is definitely a step above. IdrA is easily top 8 in Code S. I consider him better than Jinro, eventhough Jinro had better results. Which I think is due to bad maps. Even on good maps IdrA can't beat Jinro. If you mean Jinro vs IdrA series in GSL4. That was the time when terrans started exploiting 2rax aggression and zergs were still figuring out how to counter it. Other than that I don't remember any series when they played each other. I respect Jinro for his efforts and achievements. But IdrA is still better. If you read Jinro's interview after he lost to HongUn, he said that he would definitely lose if Protoss plays phoenix. IdrA would be prepared for that, he is kinda more professional than Jinro. its ridiculous to say idra>jinro. last 3 encounters. jinro beat him on jungle basin in group stages(dosent count for much) jinro beat him in the ro8. jinro beat him in the clash of the titans show match. jinro also has reached the ro4 twice while the farthest idra has gotten is ro8. pretty soon huk will be better than idra. huk works his butt off and idra is returning to america. Agree with this guy, there's no way in hell idra>jinro right now. Jinro's playstyle is just better, his decision making is better, his micro is better, his builds are better, even his in-game character is better, considering he doesn't give up games in which he still has chances. Idra's only advantage is having slightly better mechanics, and that in no way makes up for the many points in which jinro plays better than idra. Idra is the best US player for sure, but really, he's nowhere near jinro in terms of skill, and as said before, idra's weakest point is his insanely rigid play, he's been figured out by everyone. Unlike say, july, who has shown how real aggression can win games, and at the same time shown some really awesome macro in other matches, or fruitdealer, who doesn't have the best results, but is impossible to figure out since he does crazy stuff every game. Idra hasn't even evolved into the drop play we've been seeing in PvZ from many of the best zergs. Compare this to jinro, who practically spearheaded mech play against protoss in the GSL. Jinro is just better than idra. you are very very wrong in a lot of different ways. jinro is not as good as you, or a bunch of other people make out. dont get me wrong, jinro is very good but he makes a lot of fundamental errors that idra just wouldnt. things like having 90+ scvs vs select, his games vs marinekingprime, not saturating his bases properly. better micro? did you see him vs select? select's micro is nothing special but he has way better micro than jinro. his decision making is not amazing either as highlighted vs mkp. alot of jinro's success is because of his ability to come up with good builds that people havent played against very often (which is partly due to how many early game options terran has), hes not actually that good as shown vs hongunprime where he was shown up when he was trying to play standard. On the other hand...your comment about IdrA's "late game macromanagement" (i.e. mechanics) being better than anyone else on the planet is laughable. Even in SC2, as shallow as this game is, there are better (Nestea, NaDa, MVP, etc). In BW, there are probably 50+ Koreans who would wipe the floor with IdrA in mechanics, and hundreds more who are as good or slightly better.
i dont remember ever saying that though, i said something like "theres not a better player when it comes to late game multi-task games" which is pretty close to the truth, hes not unbeatable but i think he would give anyone a close series if thats all it came down to.
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On March 06 2011 06:39 esaul17 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 06:11 cordlc wrote:On March 06 2011 05:44 esaul17 wrote:
As a Protoss player I am excited to finally see Protoss do well. In the past, by the time we got to the round of 4, and especially the finals, it was almost all TvT with a TvZ or two tossed in.
I do find it odd that after Protoss finally has one good GSL run that everyone wants to see them nerfed into oblivion whereas Terran had dominated for ages and said tournament results didn't mean anything.
Not to say Protoss may not need a nerf though, or at least Zerg a buff. The thing about Terran domination is, a lot of it had to do with the terrible map selection, and everyone knew it. Nobody liked watching Terran rush down Zerg on Delta Quadrant / close Meta, or take a free Zerg expo using the ledge in LT... But on the larger maps, the games seemed much more even. Now that the maps have given everyone breathing room, more "Brood War-esque", it's showing how dominant the Protoss late game is, particularly against Zerg. Fair enough. It just seemed that, despite "everyone knowing it" Terran players just told everyone else to stop QQing, and now that they can't insta-win half their games they suddenly seem to think it fine to QQ. I agree that Zerg feels week in both match ups (though as a gold league noob, I find a big muta ball really tough). That said, in games like San vs Nestea or San vs TheWind, or HuK vs Revival, I did feel like the P player did outplay their Z opponents (Ultras vs Immortals, Void Rays vs Brood Lord-Roach). But there are times where Protoss just seems to read a certain critical mass and Zerg need a near infinite wave of reinforcements to deal with it. I am not too convinced that PvT is that imbalanced though. I feel like a lot of top T player got where they were due to Protoss not being able to forcefield their ramp against stim timing pushes and such, and now that T can't just win the whole game with MMM they are being forced to adapt. A tier 1 army shouldn't be viable against fully upgraded T3. But that is enough about balance. I was mainly just expressing how, as a P player, it is nice to see Protoss actually doing well for once in a GSL. It is fun seeing your race play games, so having 3 of the 4 Ro8 matches including a P player is a nice change of pace compared to the previous T domination.
Well problem is that mech is not really viable. I mean how do you deal with the blink/collosus into your base when going siege tanks?
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On March 06 2011 07:24 esaul17 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 07:20 cordlc wrote:On March 06 2011 06:39 esaul17 wrote:On March 06 2011 06:11 cordlc wrote:On March 06 2011 05:44 esaul17 wrote:
As a Protoss player I am excited to finally see Protoss do well. In the past, by the time we got to the round of 4, and especially the finals, it was almost all TvT with a TvZ or two tossed in.
I do find it odd that after Protoss finally has one good GSL run that everyone wants to see them nerfed into oblivion whereas Terran had dominated for ages and said tournament results didn't mean anything.
Not to say Protoss may not need a nerf though, or at least Zerg a buff. The thing about Terran domination is, a lot of it had to do with the terrible map selection, and everyone knew it. Nobody liked watching Terran rush down Zerg on Delta Quadrant / close Meta, or take a free Zerg expo using the ledge in LT... But on the larger maps, the games seemed much more even. Now that the maps have given everyone breathing room, more "Brood War-esque", it's showing how dominant the Protoss late game is, particularly against Zerg. Fair enough. It just seemed that, despite "everyone knowing it" Terran players just told everyone else to stop QQing, and now that they can't insta-win half their games they suddenly seem to think it fine to QQ. I agree that Zerg feels week in both match ups (though as a gold league noob, I find a big muta ball really tough). That said, in games like San vs Nestea or San vs TheWind, or HuK vs Revival, I did feel like the P player did outplay their Z opponents (Ultras vs Immortals, Void Rays vs Brood Lord-Roach). But there are times where Protoss just seems to read a certain critical mass and Zerg need a near infinite wave of reinforcements to deal with it. I am not too convinced that PvT is that imbalanced though. I feel like a lot of top T player got where they were due to Protoss not being able to forcefield their ramp against stim timing pushes and such, and now that T can't just win the whole game with MMM they are being forced to adapt. A tier 1 army shouldn't be viable against fully upgraded T3. But that is enough about balance. I was mainly just expressing how, as a P player, it is nice to see Protoss actually doing well for once in a GSL. It is fun seeing your race play games, so having 3 of the 4 Ro8 matches including a P player is a nice change of pace compared to the previous T domination. Yeah, those that defended maps like Steppes, Delta or close Metal weren't worth listening to anyway. Honestly though, many Terran (those that favored macro) didn't like playing on those maps either, even if it were a free win, because it forces you into that specific playstyle. I'm Terran myself, and do think PvT is looking slightly toss favored, but wouldn't be surprised if Terran were just missing something, as the matchup in these huge maps is still unexplored. Shame Mvp was knocked out early, was hoping the hero Terran would show us the way. As for the Tier 1 > Tier 3 sentiment, I get it, but understand that Terran aren't doing it out of laziness or something, the other units just don't seem to work as well. Yeah, I have heard the argument that mech just fails against Toss. It would be nice to see more of it, either via patching or metagame shifts. Which is why I am disappointed at Blizzard just hitting Templar with the nerf stick. Templar are pretty abysmal against mech and anything that isn't mass bio, so I wish Blizzard patched to improve T mech in the late game against P, opposed to just nerf P's tier 3 because it is too strong against T's tier 1. Just feels like blizzard wants P to go collosi every match and T to go MMM every match (and Z to QQ every match).
tbh, i really thought we would see alot of mech after Jinro beating MC with it, the thing is that it didn't go forward i didn't read any arguments about this yet and it is a bit disturbing, i don't know if it is because of the big maps that turn mech bad because of mobility but it just doesn't feel right.
And toss players QQ about the next patch, like you just qq'ing, i'm pretty sure that HT will still be very powerfull agaisnt BIO, they just won't be pure imba by warping storms right on the battlefield, no race had that choice, they had no other choice, just nerf the upgrade or remove HT from being warp-able.
Do you wanna talk about phoenix imba against Z too? How zergs are supposed to counter a stargate opener, being blind, and then all their queens get easy sniped by 4 phoenix?
I just feel that opener just breaks PvZ much more than 2rax bunker breaks TvZ...
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On March 06 2011 09:59 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 06:39 esaul17 wrote:On March 06 2011 06:11 cordlc wrote:On March 06 2011 05:44 esaul17 wrote:
As a Protoss player I am excited to finally see Protoss do well. In the past, by the time we got to the round of 4, and especially the finals, it was almost all TvT with a TvZ or two tossed in.
I do find it odd that after Protoss finally has one good GSL run that everyone wants to see them nerfed into oblivion whereas Terran had dominated for ages and said tournament results didn't mean anything.
Not to say Protoss may not need a nerf though, or at least Zerg a buff. The thing about Terran domination is, a lot of it had to do with the terrible map selection, and everyone knew it. Nobody liked watching Terran rush down Zerg on Delta Quadrant / close Meta, or take a free Zerg expo using the ledge in LT... But on the larger maps, the games seemed much more even. Now that the maps have given everyone breathing room, more "Brood War-esque", it's showing how dominant the Protoss late game is, particularly against Zerg. Fair enough. It just seemed that, despite "everyone knowing it" Terran players just told everyone else to stop QQing, and now that they can't insta-win half their games they suddenly seem to think it fine to QQ. I agree that Zerg feels week in both match ups (though as a gold league noob, I find a big muta ball really tough). That said, in games like San vs Nestea or San vs TheWind, or HuK vs Revival, I did feel like the P player did outplay their Z opponents (Ultras vs Immortals, Void Rays vs Brood Lord-Roach). But there are times where Protoss just seems to read a certain critical mass and Zerg need a near infinite wave of reinforcements to deal with it. I am not too convinced that PvT is that imbalanced though. I feel like a lot of top T player got where they were due to Protoss not being able to forcefield their ramp against stim timing pushes and such, and now that T can't just win the whole game with MMM they are being forced to adapt. A tier 1 army shouldn't be viable against fully upgraded T3. But that is enough about balance. I was mainly just expressing how, as a P player, it is nice to see Protoss actually doing well for once in a GSL. It is fun seeing your race play games, so having 3 of the 4 Ro8 matches including a P player is a nice change of pace compared to the previous T domination. Well problem is that mech is not really viable. I mean how do you deal with the blink/collosus into your base when going siege tanks?
Well, generally people go vikings when they mech, and if you have vikings then collosi walking into your base is a gift.
Stalkers get raped by siege tanks if you hit them, but I don't see how blink stalkers are really more of a problem than something like Marauder drops in TvT. Mech is always strong but immobile in all matches, and to counter it you always have to try to abuse that. I may just be ignorant, but I really don't feel like blink stalkers are a bigger problem than the mobility of other races.
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On March 06 2011 10:09 murtas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 07:24 esaul17 wrote:On March 06 2011 07:20 cordlc wrote:On March 06 2011 06:39 esaul17 wrote:On March 06 2011 06:11 cordlc wrote:On March 06 2011 05:44 esaul17 wrote:
As a Protoss player I am excited to finally see Protoss do well. In the past, by the time we got to the round of 4, and especially the finals, it was almost all TvT with a TvZ or two tossed in.
I do find it odd that after Protoss finally has one good GSL run that everyone wants to see them nerfed into oblivion whereas Terran had dominated for ages and said tournament results didn't mean anything.
Not to say Protoss may not need a nerf though, or at least Zerg a buff. The thing about Terran domination is, a lot of it had to do with the terrible map selection, and everyone knew it. Nobody liked watching Terran rush down Zerg on Delta Quadrant / close Meta, or take a free Zerg expo using the ledge in LT... But on the larger maps, the games seemed much more even. Now that the maps have given everyone breathing room, more "Brood War-esque", it's showing how dominant the Protoss late game is, particularly against Zerg. Fair enough. It just seemed that, despite "everyone knowing it" Terran players just told everyone else to stop QQing, and now that they can't insta-win half their games they suddenly seem to think it fine to QQ. I agree that Zerg feels week in both match ups (though as a gold league noob, I find a big muta ball really tough). That said, in games like San vs Nestea or San vs TheWind, or HuK vs Revival, I did feel like the P player did outplay their Z opponents (Ultras vs Immortals, Void Rays vs Brood Lord-Roach). But there are times where Protoss just seems to read a certain critical mass and Zerg need a near infinite wave of reinforcements to deal with it. I am not too convinced that PvT is that imbalanced though. I feel like a lot of top T player got where they were due to Protoss not being able to forcefield their ramp against stim timing pushes and such, and now that T can't just win the whole game with MMM they are being forced to adapt. A tier 1 army shouldn't be viable against fully upgraded T3. But that is enough about balance. I was mainly just expressing how, as a P player, it is nice to see Protoss actually doing well for once in a GSL. It is fun seeing your race play games, so having 3 of the 4 Ro8 matches including a P player is a nice change of pace compared to the previous T domination. Yeah, those that defended maps like Steppes, Delta or close Metal weren't worth listening to anyway. Honestly though, many Terran (those that favored macro) didn't like playing on those maps either, even if it were a free win, because it forces you into that specific playstyle. I'm Terran myself, and do think PvT is looking slightly toss favored, but wouldn't be surprised if Terran were just missing something, as the matchup in these huge maps is still unexplored. Shame Mvp was knocked out early, was hoping the hero Terran would show us the way. As for the Tier 1 > Tier 3 sentiment, I get it, but understand that Terran aren't doing it out of laziness or something, the other units just don't seem to work as well. Yeah, I have heard the argument that mech just fails against Toss. It would be nice to see more of it, either via patching or metagame shifts. Which is why I am disappointed at Blizzard just hitting Templar with the nerf stick. Templar are pretty abysmal against mech and anything that isn't mass bio, so I wish Blizzard patched to improve T mech in the late game against P, opposed to just nerf P's tier 3 because it is too strong against T's tier 1. Just feels like blizzard wants P to go collosi every match and T to go MMM every match (and Z to QQ every match). tbh, i really thought we would see alot of mech after Jinro beating MC with it, the thing is that it didn't go forward i didn't read any arguments about this yet and it is a bit disturbing, i don't know if it is because of the big maps that turn mech bad because of mobility but it just doesn't feel right. And toss players QQ about the next patch, like you just qq'ing, i'm pretty sure that HT will still be very powerfull agaisnt BIO, they just won't be pure imba by warping storms right on the battlefield, no race had that choice, they had no other choice, just nerf the upgrade or remove HT from being warp-able. Do you wanna talk about phoenix imba against Z too? How zergs are supposed to counter a stargate opener, being blind, and then all their queens get easy sniped by 4 phoenix? I just feel that opener just breaks PvZ much more than 2rax bunker breaks TvZ...
First off I wasn't saying that PvZ was perfectly balanced, I said Z could likely use a buff. So I am not sure why you are trying to get me to attack zerg QQ.
The patch bothers me as to me it is pushing both P and T more rigidly into the pre-existing roles of Collosi and MMM. It feels like Blizzard is trying to give each race only one viable strategy in each matchup so as to make balancing easier. People have hated MMM and Collosi since the beta, and Blizzard has instead seemed to nerf everything but them, making them only grow more common. I am not particularly saying HTs don't need a nerf (though I think this one is too extreme) just that it seems like Blizzard are killing something that could be interesting to force more MMM vs Collosi.
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On March 06 2011 06:49 hmunkey wrote:
I feel like TheWind really outplayed San, but he just lost due to race inefficiency (although he made it damn close regardless). It makes me a bit sad, but ggs nonetheless.
He lost because he didn't deal with the VRs which continually ruined his units. It was a side-effect of leaving Corruptors over the Xel'Naga and not watching the minimap. Load of Stalkers blink in, ravage the Corruptors he had and it was those few small mistakes that cost him the game. Not a Zerg inefficiency.
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On March 06 2011 10:09 murtas wrote:
tbh, i really thought we would see alot of mech after Jinro beating MC with it, the thing is that it didn't go forward i didn't read any arguments about this yet and it is a bit disturbing, i don't know if it is because of the big maps that turn mech bad because of mobility but it just doesn't feel right.
Honestly it seems that Jinro was just not quite as dominant as he looked with mech. MC made some mistakes he wouldn't normally make. Jinro says MC was still able to defeat the build in practice, so it's not like he got caught off guard with something new and crazy.
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On March 06 2011 05:44 esaul17 wrote:
As a Protoss player I am excited to finally see Protoss do well. In the past, by the time we got to the round of 4, and especially the finals, it was almost all TvT with a TvZ or two tossed in.
I do find it odd that after Protoss finally has one good GSL run that everyone wants to see them nerfed into oblivion whereas Terran had dominated for ages and said tournament results didn't mean anything.
Not to say Protoss may not need a nerf though, or at least Zerg a buff.
Protoss have always been strong, it was the players that were weak...prior to this GSL there was really no top class Protoss besides MC in Code S, but now at least some of the others are showing good games (Ironically it is San and Anypro, who would've predicted that!). Also, this is their second strong run as oGsMC won the 3rd GSL....
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EPT
