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On January 27 2011 06:56 aisight wrote:
To be fair, MC continued to show overall dominance by beating NesTea and Clide in the YGosu Invitational and easily winning over Naama and Ret in the Kapersky New Year's Invitational.
In GSL 4, 3 Zergs were eliminated from the Ro32 in groups that had no other Zergs (TheWinD, Kyrix, and Leenock). Kyrix was eliminated by Choya and Tester, who admittedly both made Ro8. TheWinD fell to BoxeR and Hyperdub, both of who placed dead last in their Ro16 groups. Similarly, the two who beat Leenock to Ro16, Genius and Rainbow, were eliminated in Ro16 groups.
The only Zerg players who were eliminated due to having multiple of their race in the group were Check (IdrA/Jinro), FruitDealer, and JookTo. FruitDealer has been in somewhat of a slump lately, and JookTo never really had that much of a chance to go far anyway, so Check was the only one eliminated from the Ro32 purely by virtue of multiple Zerg in a single group.
Lets take a look at why each of the zergs were eliminated and think of how luck could have played a factor.
Check's group had Check, Jinro, Ensnare, and IdrA. All top quality players (2 T 2 Z). On paper I feel these players were quite evenly matched so it makes sense for 1Z and 1T to have made it through.
FruitDealer's group had 3 Zergs and MVP. Also he played downright poorly and deserved to lose his RO32.
JookTo clearly is not code S material to begin with.
Leenock lost to Genius (a top 3 Protoss) and Rainbow, a finalist/semifinalist. If you look at accomplishments then it makes sense that Genius and Rainbow should be able to beat Leenock.
TheWinD does not get as much time to practice due to his role with oGs.
Kyrix may however have been unlucky to not escape his group. Tester is extremely good PvZ but Choya and Rain are certainly not above Kyrix's level.
So when you actually look at the individual results and see how luck may have attributed to Zergs not advancing past the RO32 in code S, there is 1 of 6 that may have been luck-related. The others were simply playing against superior opponents or, in the case of FD, massively underperformed.
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these statements make sense..
if Nestea is the best zerg , he should have made the best terran Mvp suffer, and not by losing 3-1 easy in the ro4. Mvp 2 base vs 4 base imnestea in shakuras plateau was pretty absurd. Terran on 2 bases but with fantastic production . Nestea threw the game in jungle basin by losing 10 mutas to nothing,but let´s face it , he wouldnt have won.. i just don´t know, im terran and the game seems pretty balanced but zergs maybe need too many bases to keep up..
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So happy to see FD stay in Code S! So sad that it was at the expense of Maka... But I really wanted sC to get up there too.
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On January 27 2011 05:31 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 03:34 Huckleuro wrote:On January 26 2011 21:15 nihlon wrote:On January 26 2011 21:10 Huckleuro wrote:On January 26 2011 20:48 IdrA wrote:On January 26 2011 20:45 SushilS wrote:On January 26 2011 20:41 ControlMonkey wrote:
I'm sooo glad to see fruitdealer go through. So much potential, as long as he doesn't shoot himself in the foot. Yeah. He needs to get his shit in line... GSL Code S is not a place to be breezing around drinking and snowboarding instead of putting in the practice. Its just like sc said, to beat him you'd have had to practice... Nestea and IdrA are def at a different level from FD now imo... practice doesnt win you games with zerg luck does smart of him to be having fun instead of wasting his time Out of interest idra, do you think you have ever beaten a legit top player in a GOM series since GSL1? I guess luck must be majorly on Nestea' side yea? Hes doing pretty well in nearly all of the comps he enters? No? He's already said that basically Nestea only got this far in the current gsl by the luck of the draw. Not because he bad but zerg obviously. Total rubbish. So Nestea reaching those other finals recently, on top of his GSL win + final 4 were lucky draws also? There has been 1 protoss prosper in Gsl and generally, there have been more zers. Quit the whines, gebeter Yes, that is what IdrA has said. Idra said that Nestea is a really really good player. He's not trying to take that away from him or his success. He's simply saying that if you look at the players he's played, it's usually somebody who isn't nearly at his skill level or a ZvZ. Hence, Nestea got to where he is by luck of the brackets. His point still stands regardless of Nestea's skill level.
No it doesnt. Take a look at the other tournies that Nestea has got to the finals (or even won?) recently, taking out numerous top players.
TvZ is pretty harsh in the metagame right now, yes. But generally i dont think zergs can argue that they are underpowered in comparison to toss and terran.
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I think people pretty much see that there are a small handful of 'super' pros at the moment who are just better _currently_.
We have MarineKingprime, MVP, MC and Nestea. There may be others out there, im just going off of recent results both online and in the gsl etc.
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On January 26 2011 20:48 IdrA wrote:
practice doesnt win you games with zerg
luck does
smart of him to be having fun instead of wasting his time
qft
I turned off the stream right when FD lost his queen to that bunker shit on scrap station. Im glad he is still in Code S, but damn i missed the fucking winners league to watch FD, and he went out on some bullshit.
MSL > GSL tonight 
It is what it is.
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On January 27 2011 08:18 Huckleuro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 05:31 DoubleReed wrote:On January 27 2011 03:34 Huckleuro wrote:On January 26 2011 21:15 nihlon wrote:On January 26 2011 21:10 Huckleuro wrote:On January 26 2011 20:48 IdrA wrote:On January 26 2011 20:45 SushilS wrote:On January 26 2011 20:41 ControlMonkey wrote:
I'm sooo glad to see FruitDealer go through. So much potential, as long as he doesn't shoot himself in the foot. Yeah. He needs to get his shit in Line... GSL Code S is not a place to be breezing around drinking and snowboarding instead of putting in the practice. Its just like sC SaiD, to beat him you'd have had to practice... NesTea and IdrA are def at a different level from FD now imo... practice doesnt win you games with zerg luck does Smart of him to be having fun instead of wasting his time Out of interest IdrA, do you think you have ever beaten a legit top player in a GOM series since GSL1? I guess luck must be majorly on NesTea' Side yea? Hes doing pretty well in nearly all of the comps he enters? No? He's already SaiD that basically NesTea Only got this far in the current gsl by the luck of the draw. Not because he bad but zerg obviously. Total rubbish. So NesTea reaching those other finals recently, on top of his GSL win + final 4 were Lucky draws also? There has been 1 protoss prosper in Gsl and generally, there have been more zers. Quit the whines, gebeter Yes, that is what IdrA has SaiD. IdrA SaiD that NesTea is a Really Really good player. He's not trying to take that away from him or his success. He's simply saying that if you look at the players he's played, it's usually somebody who isn't nearly at his skill level or a ZvZ. Hence, NesTea got to where he is by luck of the brackets. His Point still stands regardless of NesTea's skill level. No it doesnt. Take a look at the other tournies that NesTea has got to the finals (or even won?) recently, taking out numerous top players. TvZ is pretty harsh in the metagame right now, yes. But generally i dont think zergs can argue that they are underpowered in comparison to toss and terran.
Are you talking about the finals that went something like
1:  MVP
2:  NesTea
3: MarineKing
4: Bleach
5: NaDa
5: GanZi
5: TOP
5: Ryung
out of 32 players, 10 of which were Zerg?
Because I think that's a great argument of potential imbalance somewhere.
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On January 27 2011 08:21 Huckleuro wrote:
I think people pretty much see that there are a small handful of 'super' pros at the moment who are just better _currently_.
We have MarineKingprime, MVP, MC and Nestea. There may be others out there, im just going off of recent results both online and in the gsl etc.
exactly… whereas I think MVPs vZ is even more super than the rest.
And there is no Zergplayer that comes near Nesteas level. Nestea loses only to MVP and MC.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-korean&type=players&id=29&part=games&league=standard
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I just realized that because TOP chose both LegalMind and sanZenith, one of them will stay in code S. It should have been obvious from the start but that's depressing.
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Terran is favoured over zerg in many maps which is why the results are skewed towards terran.
That being said, Nestea being the only zerg in a sea of terran (and no protoss) not only in the Gainward Tournament but the GSL too shows how good he really is.
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On January 27 2011 09:11 aisight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 08:18 Huckleuro wrote:On January 27 2011 05:31 DoubleReed wrote:On January 27 2011 03:34 Huckleuro wrote:On January 26 2011 21:15 nihlon wrote:On January 26 2011 21:10 Huckleuro wrote:On January 26 2011 20:48 IdrA wrote:On January 26 2011 20:45 SushilS wrote:On January 26 2011 20:41 ControlMonkey wrote:
I'm sooo glad to see FruitDealer go through. So much potential, as long as he doesn't shoot himself in the foot. Yeah. He needs to get his shit in Line... GSL Code S is not a place to be breezing around drinking and snowboarding instead of putting in the practice. Its just like sC SaiD, to beat him you'd have had to practice... NesTea and IdrA are def at a different level from FD now imo... practice doesnt win you games with zerg luck does Smart of him to be having fun instead of wasting his time Out of interest IdrA, do you think you have ever beaten a legit top player in a GOM series since GSL1? I guess luck must be majorly on NesTea' Side yea? Hes doing pretty well in nearly all of the comps he enters? No? He's already SaiD that basically NesTea Only got this far in the current gsl by the luck of the draw. Not because he bad but zerg obviously. Total rubbish. So NesTea reaching those other finals recently, on top of his GSL win + final 4 were Lucky draws also? There has been 1 protoss prosper in Gsl and generally, there have been more zers. Quit the whines, gebeter Yes, that is what IdrA has SaiD. IdrA SaiD that NesTea is a Really Really good player. He's not trying to take that away from him or his success. He's simply saying that if you look at the players he's played, it's usually somebody who isn't nearly at his skill level or a ZvZ. Hence, NesTea got to where he is by luck of the brackets. His Point still stands regardless of NesTea's skill level. No it doesnt. Take a look at the other tournies that NesTea has got to the finals (or even won?) recently, taking out numerous top players. TvZ is pretty harsh in the metagame right now, yes. But generally i dont think zergs can argue that they are underpowered in comparison to toss and terran. Are you talking about the finals that went something like 1: MVP2: NesTea3: MarineKing4: Bleach5: NaDa5: GanZi5: TOP5: Ryungout of 32 players, 10 of which were Zerg? Because I think that's a great argument of potential imbalance somewhere.
I have said that yea, Terrans are really making zergs suffer in the meta game at the moment. T > Z yes, ive agreed.
What i dont agree with is Idra claiming that zergs only get far in comps because of lucky draws. Zergs are not grossly underpowered, theyre almost fine. Its terrans current ability to apply insane pressure using infinite builds whilst expanding and screwing zergs game that is the problem.
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On January 27 2011 09:16 netherDrake wrote:
Terran is favoured over zerg in many maps which is why the results are skewed towards terran.
That being said, Nestea being the only zerg in a sea of terran (and no protoss) not only in the Gainward Tournament but the GSL too shows how good he really is.
Agree. Results scream that Nestea is just by far and away the best zerg out there at the moment.
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On January 27 2011 07:15 Reason.SC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 06:56 aisight wrote:
To be fair, MC continued to show overall dominance by beating NesTea and Clide in the YGosu Invitational and easily winning over Naama and Ret in the Kapersky New Year's Invitational.
In GSL 4, 3 Zergs were eliminated from the Ro32 in groups that had no other Zergs (TheWinD, Kyrix, and Leenock). Kyrix was eliminated by Choya and Tester, who admittedly both made Ro8. TheWinD fell to BoxeR and Hyperdub, both of who placed dead last in their Ro16 groups. Similarly, the two who beat Leenock to Ro16, Genius and Rainbow, were eliminated in Ro16 groups.
The only Zerg players who were eliminated due to having multiple of their race in the group were Check (IdrA/Jinro), FruitDealer, and JookTo. FruitDealer has been in somewhat of a slump lately, and JookTo never really had that much of a chance to go far anyway, so Check was the only one eliminated from the Ro32 purely by virtue of multiple Zerg in a single group. Lets take a look at why each of the zergs were eliminated and think of how luck could have played a factor. FruitDealer's group had 3 Zergs and MVP. Also he played downright poorly and deserved to lose his RO32. So when you actually look at the individual results and see how luck may have attributed to Zergs not advancing past the RO32 in code S, there is 1 of 6 that may have been luck-related. The others were simply playing against superior opponents or, in the case of FD, massively underperformed.
FruitDealer's group had 2 Zergs and MVP, not including himself. FruitDealer had the unlucky draw of playing MVP first, the consensus best Terran in the world. NesTea had PoltPrime and MakaPrime. Both of which played absolutely terrible. Idra's right about one thing. NesTea had an amazingly easy draw. And then NesTea finally plays MVP and gets steamrolled. Idra's side of the bracket had a plethora of great players. NesTea gets to play against ChoyafOu in the quarters.
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On January 27 2011 09:20 Huckleuro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 09:16 netherDrake wrote:
Terran is favoured over zerg in many maps which is why the results are skewed towards terran.
That being said, Nestea being the only zerg in a sea of terran (and no protoss) not only in the Gainward Tournament but the GSL too shows how good he really is.
Agree. Results scream that Nestea is just by far and away the best zerg out there at the moment.
It's like NesTea, big gap, IdrA, gap, then a bunch of other Z players that basically can't overcome ZvT.
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On January 27 2011 09:56 ChThoniC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 09:20 Huckleuro wrote:On January 27 2011 09:16 netherDrake wrote:
Terran is favoured over zerg in many maps which is why the results are skewed towards terran.
That being said, Nestea being the only zerg in a sea of terran (and no protoss) not only in the Gainward Tournament but the GSL too shows how good he really is.
Agree. Results scream that Nestea is just by far and away the best zerg out there at the moment. It's like NesTea, big gap, IdrA, gap, then a bunch of other Z players that basically can't overcome ZvT.
People of TL give IdrA too much credit.
He was lucky to take a game off Jinro. Jinro is a good player, granted, but in all honesty I have confidence that IdrA can continue qualifying for events, but after the qualification stage is over, I have no faith in him advancing further.
I would give other Zergs the benefit of the doubt, depending on how they play in the earlier rounds, whereas I would not give that benefit to IdrA.
He's good but his foolish way of thinking will block him from truly getting better than ro32/ro16 standards.
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Holy shit scfOu hanging on in that metalopolis game was brilliant - in an interview he said he had gg TYPED OUT but hadn't hit Enter yet then decided "nah I think I can do this."
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On January 27 2011 11:00 Shinta) wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 09:56 ChThoniC wrote:On January 27 2011 09:20 Huckleuro wrote:On January 27 2011 09:16 netherDrake wrote:
Terran is favoured over zerg in many maps which is why the results are skewed towards terran.
That being said, Nestea being the only zerg in a sea of terran (and no protoss) not only in the Gainward Tournament but the GSL too shows how good he really is.
Agree. Results scream that Nestea is just by far and away the best zerg out there at the moment. It's like NesTea, big gap, IdrA, gap, then a bunch of other Z players that basically can't overcome ZvT. People of TL give IdrA too much credit. He was lucky to take a game off Jinro. Jinro is a good player, granted, but in all honesty I have confidence that IdrA can continue qualifying for events, but after the qualification stage is over, I have no faith in him advancing further. I would give other Zergs the benefit of the doubt, depending on how they play in the earlier rounds, whereas I would not give that benefit to IdrA. He's good but his foolish way of thinking will block him from truly getting better than ro32/ro16 standards.
Hmm.. I'm of the opposite opinion. I don't think Jinro can beat Idra without early game chee.. bunker/scv shenanigans. Of course on fair maps like Xelnaga or cross position Metalopolis.
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Anyone know when the code B tournament is on and the updown for codeA is??
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On January 27 2011 11:00 Shinta) wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 09:56 ChThoniC wrote:On January 27 2011 09:20 Huckleuro wrote:On January 27 2011 09:16 netherDrake wrote:
Terran is favoured over zerg in many maps which is why the results are skewed towards terran.
That being said, Nestea being the only zerg in a sea of terran (and no protoss) not only in the Gainward Tournament but the GSL too shows how good he really is.
Agree. Results scream that Nestea is just by far and away the best zerg out there at the moment. It's like NesTea, big gap, IdrA, gap, then a bunch of other Z players that basically can't overcome ZvT. People of TL give IdrA too much credit. He was lucky to take a game off Jinro. Jinro is a good player, granted, but in all honesty I have confidence that IdrA can continue qualifying for events, but after the qualification stage is over, I have no faith in him advancing further. I would give other Zergs the benefit of the doubt, depending on how they play in the earlier rounds, whereas I would not give that benefit to IdrA. He's good but his foolish way of thinking will block him from truly getting better than ro32/ro16 standards.
Instead of looking at his way of thinking, just look at his play. No other Zerg is as good or as consistent as him season after season, and he is only getting better and better results. His overall play is second to only NesTea, and I don't think it's particularly close.
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EPT
