On November 27 2010 19:58 Holgerius wrote: May I ask, why doesn't Protoss players incorporate a fast Forge in their builds? It will prevent you from autolosing to Banshees and you can start your upgrades really fast.
Because you lose to certain rushes that way. A forge delays either one of your gateways, or your cyber core. If you go straight for unit producing structures there are still a lot of rushes that are SUPER hard to hold. If a good terran sees a fastish forge (or heaven forbid, a cannon) he can just 2-3 rax and win because your units are delayed.
On November 27 2010 20:02 Sfydjklm wrote: And there is also the consideration of the fact that this is a unit simply too volatile and/or luck based to be a part of competitive gaming.
Ever heard of the reaver? BW is a pretty good competetive game methinks.
On November 27 2010 20:03 Ultramus wrote: Yeah I agree I really don't care who wins this tourney now :/ hope DH drops this Bo1 garbage in the next tourney.
I think European terrans are better (Demuslim, Sjow, Naama,Kas, Brat_OK, Tarson, Cloud, Lucifron, ...), but they either lost 1-2 in the group stage or didn't participated (Brat_OK and Kas).
This tournament isn't goint really well for the favorites, even ogsTop could have lost.
On November 27 2010 19:57 susySquark wrote: I don't care about balance or not, that kind of hellion damage just FEELS unfair. It's bad for the game, that making one slight mistake can cost you 30 supply in 1 second. To 200 minerals of units. I can understand misclicking your probes into a tankline being a huge blunder, but those hellions were just DIRTY.
Same thing would have happened with lurker or storm in BW. It's NOT a slight mistake to stack All your workers into the same place.
with the slight difference that lurkers and storm actually require some tech and dont cost a whopping 100 mins each and are as fast as speedlings
On November 27 2010 19:17 McDonalds wrote: Yeah, that's what Socke gets for basing a game around the exploitation of a bug. I'm already tired of seeing that.
what bug?
You squeeze a probe through that solid pylon wall-off at the base of the ramp. Shouldn't really be possible.
omg, why do ppl complain about every single bug that should be patched. the sad part is, they prolly will patch it...
i say it once again, bw has TONS of EXPLOITS
Yeah, bugs, no reason to patch those...
I already addressed the BW excuse but I'll do it again just for good measure. It's 2010. Brood War wasn't designed for real competition and the bugs that were allowed in competition actually added something. Several bugs weren't allowed because they didn't contribute in an acceptable way. This doesn't. It just gives an unfair advantage to one player like allied mines did.
Its just as squeezing through minerals in Broodwar. And that contributed a lot, they even designed maps with that in mind
Do you really want them to create maps that encourage cannon rushing? We're not talking about there being a natural barrier that can be exploited by both players. It's a barrier created by one player and the same player has much more to gain by exploiting it than the other.
I like cheese a lot, so I wouldn't mind it no. That's what I like about SC2 so far, that there are fewer long boring macro games. About having much more to gain, ye thats just as sqeezing through the minerals. All the maps with an expansion at the other side of the minerals, of course you gain more than the opponent if you are the only one to use it. But no one has ever complained (maybe except you) about those maps.
You're really missing the point. Either player could squeeze through the minerals to take their own expansion. It's equal benefit. If you don't see the asymmetrical benefit of being able to squeeze through a pylon barrier at the bottom of a ramp then I don't know what you're doing playing a strategy game.
Both players have a ramp, right? Both players choses their own strategy.
But if you want to highlight asymmetrical benefit, just look at zerg and squeezing through the minerals. They can't, yet they don't wine as much as you do.
Are you still talking about Brood War or what? Any worker could slide through minerals in Brood War.
Your comment that "both players have a ramp" pretty much confirms to me that you're either unwilling or unable to understand what I'm talking about. Both players have a ramp. One player has their ramp blocked by pylons during a cannon rush. We're talking about the blocked ramp and the benefit of being able to walk through it. Are you trying to argue that the player with the blocked ramp should just go block the other player's ramp and that somehow solves everything?
On November 27 2010 20:02 TotalBiscuit wrote: Apparently Day9 was not able to cast ServaNT vs Naama, Dreamhack is sending me the replays to cast on Youtube. These will be done as my first priority today. There's not really time to cast them live without overlapping Day9's RO4 casting, which would be a dumb thing to do.
On the plus side, you get to see them in proper quality.
On November 27 2010 19:58 Holgerius wrote: May I ask, why doesn't Protoss players incorporate a fast Forge in their builds? It will prevent you from autolosing to Banshees and you can start your upgrades really fast.
Because you lose to certain rushes that way. A forge delays either one of your gateways, or your cyber core. If you go straight for unit producing structures there are still a lot of rushes that are SUPER hard to hold. If a good terran sees a fastish forge (or heaven forbid, a cannon) he can just 2-3 rax and win because your units are delayed.
That's my D level take on it XD
You're d lvl take on it is very right , as well terran can just expand even safer vs your forge build, atm fast expo terrans are already impossible to push with 2 bunkers or so, imagine you add a forge to it, welcome to double mule! :D
A pylong tight wall to the right of the natural meant that the 2 hellions could just sit there and kill the pylons cause nothing can hit them from the other side...
On November 27 2010 20:02 Sfydjklm wrote: And there is also the consideration of the fact that this is a unit simply too volatile and/or luck based to be a part of competitive gaming.
Ever heard of the reaver? BW is a pretty good competetive game methinks.
nononononononono your stupidity is overwhelming.. must.. keep.. sanity... Do you know anything about reaver and how it operates? ><;;;
On November 27 2010 20:03 Ultramus wrote: Yeah I agree I really don't care who wins this tourney now :/ hope DH drops this Bo1 garbage in the next tourney.
There's very little difference between one BO3 and three BO1s
On November 27 2010 20:07 lim1017 wrote: A pylong tight wall to the right of the natural meant that the 2 hellions could just sit there and kill the pylons cause nothing can hit them from the other side...
and then you warp in A stalker on the other side. dont try so hard to argue against stuff <.<
On November 27 2010 19:58 Holgerius wrote: May I ask, why doesn't Protoss players incorporate a fast Forge in their builds? It will prevent you from autolosing to Banshees and you can start your upgrades really fast.
what? fast forge? which will then be used for what? Early ups aren't as good when you're sacrificing units to get them. and if they end up not going banshees you're leaving yourself a massive timing to be attacked.
fast(ish) robo is the way to go because you can get the observers up and you have opened a tech path to immo (vs maRAUders) or colossi vs bio balls...
or if you want all tosses can go fast robo AND fast forge and play with +1 Immortals. No gateway units.
On November 27 2010 19:45 Sfydjklm wrote: hellions need a nerf:X this is annoying that 2 shots from 2 units that cost as much as a zealot can completely break otherwise even games.
You realise that it was a huge mistake by NonY but not imbalance? Clustering up all probes against blue-flame hellions - come on. All respect for NonY, but no one but him to blame for this huge mistake / probe loss.
... preventable=/= balanced. name me one equally easily made terran mistake that would equal in consequences. And there is also the consideration of the fact that this is a unit simply too volatile and/or luck based to be a part of competitive gaming.
You can easily lose 30 scvs really fast when you clump them under storms or colossus fire. Of course these are higher tech units than Helions, but still.
And beside that, maybe you should focus on the fact that these Helions got several shots of, that Tyler decided to attack them with all his probes back in his mineral line, instead of continuing to move them away and split them. That he had only left 1 stalker behind his none-pylon-wall on the side and none at his expo. That he A-moved a 50supply army to kill one Banshee.
Tyler made a series of mistakes that lead to this disaster. He can blame noone here but himself, and it surely has not anything to do with imbalance.
EPT
, as well terran can just expand even safer vs your forge build, atm fast expo terrans are already impossible to push with 2 bunkers or so, imagine you add a forge to it, welcome to double mule! :D
