CraftCup is a weekly 1024 player tournament (LITE cups are 512 players). Currently running 3 tournaments every week (more will follow). Information about the staff, rules for the tournament, signups and streams can be found over at http://www.CraftCup.com/.
EU.CraftCup LITE (512 players) on Tuesdays at 7pm CEST (1pm EDT / 10am PDT)
EU.CraftCup (1024 players) on Fridays at 7pm CEST (1pm EDT / 10am PDT)
US.CraftCup (1024 players) on Fridays at 8pm EDT (5pm PDT / Saturdays 2am CEST)
CraftCup also introduced a new betting format where viewers can bet with credits on the outcomes of the final games.
You can also find us on irc.quakenet.org in #CraftCup where we'll be glad to answer any of your questions and feedback aswell as in this topic.
This friday we will once again have a special cup running. The Hercules CraftCup #9 sponsored by Hercules! We will have a 200$ prize pool for this cup where the first place will take 150$ home and second place 50$.
Don't forget to sign up and check in 30 minutes before the tournament starts!
Question the website only allows me to register for whatever tournament comes first, I cant register for EU Lite when the EU cup is first, is there a way to register for both?
On October 11 2010 05:06 slained wrote: Yea I went to each site, theres 2 euro tournaments, I can't register for the Lite. I didn't say anything about NA
I don't believe you can register for future tournaments, no. You can only sign up for the one that is currently being counted down to.
ok slained i dont understand what u mean. when i saw ur message u were signed for the LITE cup on tuesday alrdy. thats why i thought u want to sign up for the NA
Today we'll be kicking off probably the most awesome CraftCup week that we have had so far! The iomega CraftCup week with a grand total of 1000$ prize money! Yes you heard it, ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS!
Don't forget to tell your friends, mothers, sisters, grandmothers, grandfathers, dogs, cats and all other pets. And most importantly, don't forget to sign up AND CHECK IN 30 MINUTES BEFORE THE TOURNAMENT STARTS!!
You can easily go to our history page to see the brackets and replays of all of our previous tournaments. It's much easier than wondering what's going on inside a replay pack.
On October 30 2010 15:55 positron. wrote: Is there a replay pack for the most recent CraftCup (bly vs tarson final)? I could not find it in the history page.
Click that brackets icon and you will find the replays.
Today we are organizing a Cup for Tt eSports on EU with some nice prizes especially for people from Greatbritain as it included tickets to the i41 LAN event
I just registered and I can't sign up for the tournament tonight. I've asked on MIRC and have been ignored for 20 minutes. Can anyone tell me where the link is or what I'm doing wrong?
Could someone please tell me as on what basis do the players playing in the tournament get selected from all those who sign up for it? Is it on a lucky draw kinda basis?
On November 03 2010 03:10 ValM wrote: Could someone please tell me as on what basis do the players playing in the tournament get selected from all those who sign up for it? Is it on a lucky draw kinda basis?
It is first come first serve on Check in, which is usually 15 or 30 minutes before the tournament starts
What kind of skill level enters the cup? I imagine later stages are always high level diamond, but do you ever get say platinum players entering for the fun of it?
I tried to register last night to the site but haven't recieved any account activation email, hopefully I get it soon so I can participate in this cup. (My first SC2 cup ever).
On November 18 2010 02:33 mczbot wrote:
// any1 else unable to checkin? :/
This is taken from the CraftCup site:
Notice: You will be able to check in 30 minutes before the tournament begins.
On November 18 2010 01:22 Deadeight wrote: What kind of skill level enters the cup? I imagine later stages are always high level diamond, but do you ever get say platinum players entering for the fun of it?
Yea I've played against gold guys and plat guys in early stages before.
I'll tell you my experience with this cup so i signed up for the cup and saw that my first opponent was some 2300 player, while I am only 1700. obviously my chances were slim, but because this isn't a story about me it is irrelevant. Somehow I managed to win and my opponent it seems ragequitted and reported a win. I was a bit confused at first coz the site didn't accept me as the winner, but then i realized that the opponent was probably BM. In the meantime (1min max after the game finished) i get a message from the head admin of the cup saying that it seems that i have some problems, he checked my match history and solved everything. To be honest I was quite impressed by the fact that they solved my problem so quickly, while some other 'bigger' tournaments usually take a lot more that 1 minute. So this blog is just a big THANK YOU to the Craft Cup and its admins.
I know i know, it's Dreamhack time and thats a pretty epic thing. Our friends from GLHF.tv are casting there too so you should check that out. But if somebody has any spare time this evening there is also a CraftCup on Europe, and US tomorrow. craftcup.com us.craftcup.com
Other topic:
On November 25 2010 04:43 KasdaTheEmperor wrote: So this blog is just a big THANK YOU to the Craft Cup and its admins.
A one hour PvZ on Shakuras Plateau between Stephano and mazaYcheck - this replay just has to be seen! You can find it in the brackets of the tournament.
The todays CraftCup Lite (EU) will be streamed on www.sc2-on-air.de (german) Don't forget to sign up and check in for the tournament on www.craftcup.com =)
ddoro, one of the most cheesy tosses out there, gets kicked out of the craftcup relatively early to a unknown guy by a proxy hatch into spine crawler push. this really made my day!^^ i also like how the proxy hatch made ddoros pylon block of the Zs ramp a complete self-ownage. ^^
Bumping this because this tournaments deserve way more hype - right now a 30 min game of Socke vs Morrow finished on Shakuras Plateau, we saw broodlords, DTs, flux vane-void rays and even a mothership. Epic.
haha, just had the same idea to bump this thread, just because of this epic Socke vs Morrow game with the mass Void Ray finishing move : D man, those corrupters didn't stand a chance against upgraded Void Rays
CraftCup starts soon on craftcup.com Coverage in at least 4 languages provided. Check out the links in the TL sidebar or on our website. The winner of todays Cup will receive an invitation to the $500 CraftCup King of the Month powered by sc-streams.com
What an unprofessional way to deal with the situation. If you're not willing to wait for the game to finish, or at least reach a true stalemate, then you shouldn't run a tournament.
Also, you're letting beastyqt act like a mobster or whatever, pausing the game without explaining and being a bm douche.
If beasty left that game on his own initiative then this tournament is a joke so I hope at least that wasn't the case.
On February 10 2011 08:25 niteReloaded wrote: What an unprofessional way to deal with the situation. If you're not willing to wait for the game to finish, or at least reach a true stalemate, then you shouldn't run a tournament.
Also, you're letting beastyqt act like a mobster or whatever, pausing the game without explaining and being a bm douche.
On February 10 2011 08:25 niteReloaded wrote: What an unprofessional way to deal with the situation. If you're not willing to wait for the game to finish, or at least reach a true stalemate, then you shouldn't run a tournament.
Also, you're letting beastyqt act like a mobster or whatever, pausing the game without explaining and being a bm douche.
If beasty left that game on his own initiative then this tournament is a joke so I hope at least that wasn't the case.
I agree with the above sentiment.
avilo's style was boring. avilo's style was not entertaining. However, avilo was playing the game. He didn't exploit bugs nor abuse anything other than his opponent's patience. His opponent played in a similar way. avilo attempted to push down the sides.
Stopping a game for lack of entertainment value gives this tournament no integrity.
Was avilo really disqualified? I tuned in the second game at perhaps 25mins and can´t say avilo was the passive one. until the end he made more small attacks than beasty and slowly advanced. He was mobbed the hole time by beasty but beasty did´t attack either. The pause without saying why was also very bm. If he needs a pause he shoud say it.
Although I don´t like most post of avilo in forum I totally root for him in this case.
If I understood something wrong sorry, but imo that was totally wrong
official statement of craftcup on the facts: we decided to rate this match as a draw and told palyers to leave for a rematch. That is what beasty then did. more details on this later. Avilo officially did not accept our decision for a draw.
I'm a beastyqt fan and wanted him to win over avilo before the match.
But this decision is some bullshit. Beastyqt left the game, there was no official stalemate announced or anything. Whoever leaves the game first without a prior agreement loses the game. beasty was down 1-0, so avilo should've taken this series.
Not going to watch any more craft cups in the future until the full reasoning and thought behind this decision is explained to my satisfaction.
Ridiculous.
On February 10 2011 08:36 Maista wrote: official statement of craftcup on the facts: we decided to rate this match as a draw and told palyers to leave for a rematch. That is what beasty then did. more detials on this later
I see. Well then, the fault is on avilo for not accepting the admin's decision.
You can say that the admin's decision to rule this game a draw is questionable, but if they can do this according to the rules (ruled a draw because the game was not going anywhere, and at the rate these players were going at each other (or not going at each other, as it were), would have lasted another 5 to 6 hours.
Even if you personally disagree with the admins ruling game 2 a draw, if you do not listen to their decision and refuse to regame, you cannot expect to advance.
I am sorry but Special Endrey made a fool out of himself. Not only that he is casting completely wasted but beeing so one sided in favor of Beastyqt makes me sad. I understand that the game betweeen Beasty and Avilo wasn't entertaining whatsoever but both were playing there games and a caster should respect that.
Also the admins decision seems doubtful to me. Good night craftcup.
On February 10 2011 08:36 teacherWISH wrote: WoW Craft cup raelly????????
You bunch of Nazi eu garbage... Admins are from germany IT was an obvious 2-0 by avilo, then these nazi mother fuckers, just take the wins away from him? cause hes american?
well admin offered rematch but avilo said no, in fact he was behind in game 2 since beasty had 3k gas more for refusing to play and respect admin decision he was disqualified
For the game they made the wrong decision, ideally the two players should have played it out.
But CraftCup admins have a tourny to run, and see finish. Avilo's style is the most terrible and boring thing I've ever seen and I would not have continued watching another game. They need to have their tourny finish, and they would favor Beasty to make it through because he would put on a more interesting game.
What they did seemed like favoritism, Beasty was BMing hard , and Avilo deserved to continue on his way to probable victory. It's completely ridiculous and Avilo is probably right to be pissed off and not play.
IMHO, focusing on the tournament as a spectator sport, they did the right thing. From the perspective of a competitive sport, they did the completely wrong thing. Honestly, overall I'm not sure what to think about this other than Beasty is a hypocritical prick and I hope he loses.
On February 10 2011 08:25 niteReloaded wrote: What an unprofessional way to deal with the situation. If you're not willing to wait for the game to finish, or at least reach a true stalemate, then you shouldn't run a tournament.
Also, you're letting beastyqt act like a mobster or whatever, pausing the game without explaining and being a bm douche.
If beasty left that game on his own initiative then this tournament is a joke so I hope at least that wasn't the case.
That!
This kind of horrible refereeing makes at least me not wanna watch any more craftcup. Boring game, sure it was, but it was beasty being a bm douche...
Terrible, terrible decision by Craftcup admins. Avilo was actually in a completely dominant position in that second game and was inevitibly going to win (had a superior army in every respect). How on earth is that a stalemate? The admins have been pressured into making completely the wrong decision and I've lost all respect for Craftcup and won't be watching it anymore.
You don't like Avilo's playstyle? That's fine, but you can't start stopping games if they go over an hour...
On February 10 2011 08:38 FreeUrMind wrote: well admin offered rematch but avilo said no, in fact he was behind in game 2 since beasty had 3k gas more for refusing to play and respect admin decision he was disqualified
He should have refused to play. That match was not a draw. Enemy units were being destroyed.
On February 10 2011 08:38 FreeUrMind wrote: well admin offered rematch but avilo said no, in fact he was behind in game 2 since beasty had 3k gas more for refusing to play and respect admin decision he was disqualified
Avilo was still mining gas from his gold base. Not sure how much more was in there, but it wasn't exactly a 3k gas lead.
On February 10 2011 08:33 Rushingwolf wrote: this is so biased and a horrible decision from the craftcup retardmins 1. Avilo won the first game 2. Avilo was in the lead in the second match
Avilo wasn't in the lead in the 2nd game. Beastyqt didn't rebuild his forces, even tho he was sitting on 30k minerals, presumably because he wanted to show that a stalemate was arrived at.
It's tricky for the admins to decide situations like this. Avilo was definitely abusing the turtle strategy to the point where it's game-breaking. If you turtle and drag out the game so that the map gets mined out and aim for a stalemate, then I think admins can step in and declare the other player the winner. It's not really sportsmanlike behavior, even tho technically you're not breaking any official rules.
The difference between Avilo and Beasty's gathered resources is irrelevant since Avilo was advancing on Beasty's expansion and had been slowly closing the resource gap up to that point.
On February 10 2011 08:38 FreeUrMind wrote: well admin offered rematch but avilo said no, in fact he was behind in game 2 since beasty had 3k gas more for refusing to play and respect admin decision he was disqualified
he had 3k more gas because he made 100marines, if you convert the food into the heavy gas units avilo had they come out kinda even so.............
On February 10 2011 08:39 UnholyRai wrote: neutral perspective here.
Terrible, terrible decision by Craftcup admins. Avilo was actually in a completely dominant position in that second game and was inevitibly going to win (had a superior army in every respect). How on earth is that a stalemate? The admins have been pressured into making completely the wrong decision and I've lost all respect for Craftcup and won't be watching it anymore.
You don't like Avilo's playstyle? That's fine, but you can't start stopping games if they go over an hour...
Utter crap.
This pretty much wraps up my thoughts on these events. Avilo was making VERY SLOW but steady progress.
On February 10 2011 08:33 Rushingwolf wrote: this is so biased and a horrible decision from the craftcup retardmins 1. Avilo won the first game 2. Avilo was in the lead in the second match
Avilo wasn't in the lead in the 2nd game. Beastyqt didn't rebuild his forces, even tho he was sitting on 30k minerals, presumably because he wanted to show that a stalemate was arrived at.
It's tricky for the admins to decide situations like this. Avilo was definitely abusing the turtle strategy to the point where it's game-breaking. If you turtle and drag out the game so that the map gets mined out and aim for a stalemate, then I think admins can step in and declare the other player the winner. It's not really sportsmanlike behavior, even tho technically you're not breaking any official rules.
Beasty was going the same thing of playing in a turtle style. avilo was attempting to move forward. Beasy was not.
Yeah, I do not agree with the decision of the admins to rule the game a draw.
The game would have continued for another 4 or 5 hours at this pace (how many hunter-seeker-missiled tanks can you replenish with 18k minerals?), but I don't believe it should be in the power of the admins to just rule it a draw if one or both of the players are not in agreement.
That's what Blizzard's automatic stalemate detection is for.
All this talk about who was ahead or who was trying to win the game or not is absolutely meaningless, as there's no way of knowing how the game would have actually ended. The admins should not be able to end a game whenever they please without both players agreeing to the decision.
On February 10 2011 08:36 teacherWISH wrote: WoW Craft cup raelly????????
You bunch of Nazi eu garbage... Admins are from germany IT was an obvious 2-0 by avilo, then these nazi mother fuckers, just take the wins away from him? cause hes american?
i swear to god boycott this fucking tournament
Wow.... I think they made a terrible decision. But, um, you may want to rethink your choice of words
Very unprofessional call. Under what circumstances is it permissible to simply leave the game and demand a rematch because you don't like the way your opponent is playing? That is simply a forfeit and there is no reason Avilo should be expected to re-game. Furthermore, Beastyqt was continually whining and insulting Avilo as well as pausing the game for no given reason. The fact that Avilo may have problems with other sites does not make the call warranted. Both sides had armies, minerals, and unit producing structures. It was nowhere near a draw. The game may not have been exciting, but it was still not over.
On February 10 2011 08:38 FreeUrMind wrote: well admin offered rematch but avilo said no, in fact he was behind in game 2 since beasty had 3k gas more for refusing to play and respect admin decision he was disqualified
Avilo was still mining gas from his gold base. Not sure how much more was in there, but it wasn't exactly a 3k gas lead.
Yes, don't believe everything a drunk and very biased caster tells you.
Lol all these over the top reactions over a simple regame decision in the semis of a 20 $ tournament. Makes me kinda embaressed to be a nerd.
Also that was a clear regame in my opinion. Only mistake was to call it that late. Was a regame already 20 min earlier. Normally players decide to regame though and dont need an admin for that. But Avilo was strangely stubborn.
I remember a broodwar game recently between Flash and someone else I forgot. There the admins called decided to regame after about 40 minutes. And in that game was still much more happening then in this game between Avilo and BeastyQT. And I remember no drama there, although the game was much more important.
On February 10 2011 08:33 Rushingwolf wrote: this is so biased and a horrible decision from the craftcup retardmins 1. Avilo won the first game 2. Avilo was in the lead in the second match
Avilo wasn't in the lead in the 2nd game. Beastyqt didn't rebuild his forces, even tho he was sitting on 30k minerals, presumably because he wanted to show that a stalemate was arrived at.
It's tricky for the admins to decide situations like this. Avilo was definitely abusing the turtle strategy to the point where it's game-breaking. If you turtle and drag out the game so that the map gets mined out and aim for a stalemate, then I think admins can step in and declare the other player the winner. It's not really sportsmanlike behavior, even tho technically you're not breaking any official rules.
1. Avilo was in the leads point wise as seen in the game statistics 2. Beasty had a half as many tanks as avilo; a lot less Ravens; a huge amout of useless marines ; his lower left Island was penetrated by avilo; he lost his air superiority by flying his vikings into a nuke 3, I am sure that avilo didn't agree to a rematch. Beasty just left and the BIASED admins supported him 4. In the gsl a regame of an OPEN match would never have happened
On February 10 2011 08:44 DoctorClock wrote: Very unprofessional call. Under what circumstances is it permissible to simply leave the game and demand a rematch because you don't like the way your opponent is playing? That is simply a forfeit and there is no reason Avilo should be expected to re-game. Furthermore, Beastyqt was continually whining and insulting Avilo as well as pausing the game for no given reason. The fact that Avilo may have problems with other sites does not make the call warranted. Both sides had armies, minerals, and unit producing structures. It was nowhere near a draw. The game may not have been exciting, but it was still not over.
posted on the last page:
official statement of craftcup on the facts: we decided to rate this match as a draw and told palyers to leave for a rematch. That is what beasty then did. more details on this later. Avilo officially did not accept our decision for a draw.
The admins decided that it was a draw and ordered a rematch. They told both players to leave the game, which beasty did. He did not decide to leave on his own.
On February 10 2011 08:46 Redox wrote: Lol all these over the top reactions over a simple regame decision in the semis of a 20 $ tournament. Makes me kinda embaressed to be a nerd.
Also that was a clear regame in my opinion. Only mistake was to call it that late. Was a regame already 20 min earlier. Normally players decide to regame though and dont need an admin for that. But Avilo was strangely stubborn.
I remember a broodwar game recently between Flash and someone else I forgot. There the admins called decided to regame after about 40 minutes. And in that game was still much more happening then in this game between Avilo and BeastyQT. And I remember no drama there, although the game was much more important.
Really? Which game was that? I'd like to read up on that (and the admins' reasoning) as I haven't seen a situation quite like this before.
I won this series 2-0, and beastyQT bms me the entire game, and then pauses midgame to bitch to admins to allow him a re-game so he has a chance again...
I was in control of both games, first game he BM's and doesn't leave for 5-10 minutes after he lost.
So all the admins listened to his bitching, and didn't let the game finish out like men. I've never been DQ'd from a tournment before because of my PLAYSTYLE. That is fucking ridiculous.
When it comes down to it, I do not care about the 20 dollars, I only care about winning fair and square, which I did, I 2-0'd beasty. And then I heard casters were BMing me as well, which is pretty sad, as I never have BM'd any of them, not did I even respond to beasty's bM for the half hour that he was during the second game we played.
I won 2-0, admins sided with european favorite there even tho he was being raped. So to all you craftcup players, if you're in a long series, and you don't like how your opponent is playing...msg the admins and they will give you the win even when you're losing!
That call by the admins has made Craftcup credibility disappear in my eyes. Avilo was the player who made slow but steady attacks and progress. He did not want to accept a draw since he was trying very hard to win.
Beasty on the other hand was whining and BMing the whole time, and at the same time made no attacks what so ever. Hell if I was admin I would just ban Beasty because of BM. The worst part though, and this really felt bad, was the casters (imbalancedtv crew) bias towards Beasty and their craptalk of Avilo, really unproffesional.
Sure that wasn't a stalemate in the purest sense, but that game was going to drag on indefinately. Both players had all their production facilities spread out all over the map, so one successful push would not win the game. Both players were maxed and had massive amounts of minerals left in the bank. It was in neither player's advantage to attack in any decisive way. If one player broke through, the other could hold a different line and make the game even longer.
So meanwhile, CC has one finalist already, and that person is waiting and waiting and can't wait forever. Letting that game finish is simply not an option. You cannot call a winner either* because neither player had a strong lead, despite what Avilo might think. One player had a small positional and army advantage, the other had a large econ advantage. I'm sure someone would've won eventually, but you can't wait another hour to find out. So the decision to regame is the only possible choice in that situation, and Avilo is solely responsible for his decision to not go through with it.
* I actually think had that game played out, Beastyqt would've won because of his 3k gas advantage. Avilo had the larger army, but not so much of a larger army that he would've been in a good position if he attacked. Because the production facilities were all over the place (and liftable) than I can't see how Beasty would not be able to rebuild his army if he had lost it slowing Avilo down. At that point, a lucky nuke or HSM would be the only decider, and it takes, what 30 apm? to manage that situation.
On February 10 2011 08:46 Redox wrote: Lol all these over the top reactions over a simple regame decision in the semis of a 20 $ tournament. Makes me kinda embaressed to be a nerd.
Also that was a clear regame in my opinion. Only mistake was to call it that late. Was a regame already 20 min earlier. Normally players decide to regame though and dont need an admin for that. But Avilo was strangely stubborn.
I remember a broodwar game recently between Flash and someone else I forgot. There the admins called decided to regame after about 40 minutes. And in that game was still much more happening then in this game between Avilo and BeastyQT. And I remember no drama there, although the game was much more important.
Well I see your point but the timing of the decision was obscene. I could understand the admins calling a draw much, much earlier when both sides were truly equal and in the same position.
However at the time beasty left Avilo was in such a commanding lead it cannot be correct to call a draw at that point in time.
On February 10 2011 08:46 Redox wrote: Lol all these over the top reactions over a simple regame decision in the semis of a 20 $ tournament.
The things is, it presents a very slipper slope. Because a game is "boring" or "long" it should be a regame? Those are subjective terms. Who gets to decide when a game is too long or too boring.
Both sides had armies. Both sides had resources. Both sides unit producing structures. Player A was pushing into Player B. Does that sound like a game that is a draw or over?
People don't like it when bad calls are made. It sets a precedent for future bad calls to be made.
On February 10 2011 08:50 avilo wrote: I won this series 2-0, and beastyQT bms me the entire game, and then pauses midgame to bitch to admins to allow him a re-game so he has a chance again...
I was in control of both games, first game he BM's and doesn't leave for 5-10 minutes after he lost.
So all the admins listened to his bitching, and didn't let the game finish out like men. I've never been DQ'd from a tournment before because of my PLAYSTYLE. That is fucking ridiculous.
When it comes down to it, I do not care about the 20 dollars, I only care about winning fair and square, which I did, I 2-0'd beasty. And then I heard casters were BMing me as well, which is pretty sad, as I never have BM'd any of them, not did I even respond to beasty's bM for the half hour that he was during the second game we played.
I won 2-0, admins sided with european favorite there even tho he was being raped. So to all you craftcup players, if you're in a long series, and you don't like how your opponent is playing...msg the admins and they will give you the win even when you're losing!
Pretty much robbed of a legit win here.
But well, if the admins decide to rule this game a draw and message the players to the effect of ordering to leave the game, isn't it your responsibility to accept the tournament organiser's decision?
On February 10 2011 08:52 DoctorClock wrote:
The things is, it presents a very slipper slope. Because a game is "boring" or "long" it should be a regame? Those are subjective terms. Who gets to decide when a game is too long or too boring.
Both sides had armies. Both sides had resources. Both sides unit producing structures. Player A was pushing into Player B. Does that sound like a game that is a draw or over?
People don't like it when bad calls are made. It sets a precedent for future bad calls to be made.
The admins of that respective tournament. Who else is going to make that call?
I honestly believe the game would have continued for 4 or 5 more hours at this pace. Hunter-seeker missiles killing one or two tanks a minute, being replenished with 18k+ minerals constantly.
On February 10 2011 08:33 Rushingwolf wrote: this is so biased and a horrible decision from the craftcup retardmins 1. Avilo won the first game 2. Avilo was in the lead in the second match
Avilo wasn't in the lead in the 2nd game. Beastyqt didn't rebuild his forces, even tho he was sitting on 30k minerals, presumably because he wanted to show that a stalemate was arrived at.
It's tricky for the admins to decide situations like this. Avilo was definitely abusing the turtle strategy to the point where it's game-breaking. If you turtle and drag out the game so that the map gets mined out and aim for a stalemate, then I think admins can step in and declare the other player the winner. It's not really sportsmanlike behavior, even tho technically you're not breaking any official rules.
He wasn't dragging out the game. It wasn't like he was passive and AFK. He made ravens and HSM'd, he nuked, he tried to advance with tanks, used vikings to harassed, etc. If you don't like his style, that's your opinion, but the admins re-gaming them because beastyqt complained and the commentators whined just shows what a joke Craftcup is.
In the end it was Avilo pushing forward and trying to win while Beastyqt complained and BM'd, then eventually quiting. And using resources banked as a base for deciding who was ahead is not appropriate. Units don't produce instantly, having +3k gas in the bank (especially when they both had ~10k+) means nothing if you made the wrong decision and lost your army. You're not going to reproduce 100 food before he crushes production buildings.
I think Beastyqt is trash now that I've seen how he treats people. The amount of BM he threw at Avilo (who said nothing most of the game) shows what type of player he is.
On February 10 2011 08:50 dizzy101 wrote: ^ avilo is a troll on the forums, and a troll in the game. So you're saying he should be rewarded for that?
I detest Avilo's posting, but that doesn't change the fact that he won the first game and should've been allowed to finish out the second game. EDIT: although after reading tree.hugger's posts I kind of see his point. Maybe a regame would be the best decision considering time constraints and so on - in which case avilo is in the wrong and I can go back to disliking him =)
On February 10 2011 08:50 avilo wrote: I won this series 2-0, and beastyQT bms me the entire game, and then pauses midgame to bitch to admins to allow him a re-game so he has a chance again...
I was in control of both games, first game he BM's and doesn't leave for 5-10 minutes after he lost.
So all the admins listened to his bitching, and didn't let the game finish out like men. I've never been DQ'd from a tournment before because of my PLAYSTYLE. That is fucking ridiculous.
When it comes down to it, I do not care about the 20 dollars, I only care about winning fair and square, which I did, I 2-0'd beasty. And then I heard casters were BMing me as well, which is pretty sad, as I never have BM'd any of them, not did I even respond to beasty's bM for the half hour that he was during the second game we played.
I won 2-0, admins sided with european favorite there even tho he was being raped. So to all you craftcup players, if you're in a long series, and you don't like how your opponent is playing...msg the admins and they will give you the win even when you're losing!
Pretty much robbed of a legit win here.
You were right to not BM back at him during the game, you were being less campy then he was and that was what the was BMing about most of the time too. There was clearly some favoritism (I don't know about CraftCup for certain, but definitely from some casters) and that's just ridiculous.
I feel sorry for you man, I hope you have better luck in tournies in the future.
On February 10 2011 08:50 avilo wrote: I won 2-0, admins sided with european favorite there even tho he was being raped. So to all you craftcup players, if you're in a long series, and you don't like how your opponent is playing...msg the admins and they will give you the win even when you're losing!
Pretty much robbed of a legit win here.
i think you know yourself that this is bullshit. Being raped, lol. No side could attack the other. You were both turteling. it just seemed to you near the end you made some small progress, because BeastyQT was talking with admins about a regame and didnt build any new stuff to show that it was a draw. He had like 20 k minerals and 3 k gas, but didnt build anything as he could even defend with like 140 supply. he could have build stuff any time and drawn out the game until one of you fell asleep.
People seem to be forgetting that Gomas, who is a Polish player (late at night for him), is waiting for this series to finish. You cannot allow one player to wait for two hours just to allow a de facto stalemate to work itself out.
This cuts both ways, at which point does being fair to Avilo and Beastyqt mean being unfair to Gomas. I think Beasty's BM was poor form, but Avilo really needed to accept a draw in that situation.
On February 10 2011 08:52 trashcan wrote: He wasn't dragging out the game. It wasn't like he was passive and AFK. He made ravens and HSM'd, he nuked, he tried to advance with tanks, used vikings to harassed, etc. If you don't like his style, that's your opinion, but the admins re-gaming them because beastyqt complained and the commentators whined just shows what a joke Craftcup is.
You do not know how the admins arrived at the conclusion they did or that casters/audience/players affected them. This kind of speculation doesn't help anyone.
tree hugger does have legitimate points from a tournament organiser's point of view.
On February 10 2011 08:51 tree.hugger wrote: Right call by the Craft Cup admins.
Sure that wasn't a stalemate in the purest sense, but that game was going to drag on indefinately. Both players had all their production facilities spread out all over the map, so one successful push would not win the game. Both players were maxed and had massive amounts of minerals left in the bank. It was in neither player's advantage to attack in any decisive way. If one player broke through, the other could hold a different line and make the game even longer.
So meanwhile, CC has one finalist already, and that person is waiting and waiting and can't wait forever. Letting that game finish is simply not an option. You cannot call a winner either* because neither player had a strong lead, despite what Avilo might think. One player had a small positional and army advantage, the other had a large econ advantage. I'm sure someone would've won eventually, but you can't wait another hour to find out. So the decision to regame is the only possible choice in that situation, and Avilo is solely responsible for his decision to not go through with it.
* I actually think had that game played out, Beastyqt would've won because of his 3k gas advantage. Avilo had the larger army, but not so much of a larger army that he would've been in a good position if he attacked. Because the production facilities were all over the place (and liftable) than I can't see how Beasty would not be able to rebuild his army if he had lost it slowing Avilo down. At that point, a lucky nuke or HSM would be the only decider, and it takes, what 30 apm? to manage that situation.
Ive played this lategame hundreds of times at this point. I was slowly gaining ground onto his side, and once I get to the central gold area on his half, you can attack and both possibly trade, with re-max on hellions/tanks/vikings+turrets, etc. Also, had more ravens, slightly more vikings, and a thor base which slowly kills his horrible skeleton composition. Just another round of nukes or two and im at that gold sweetspot.
And since you don't lose army breaking into their line, you can push to their production and stop remax, which is what I was doing as I was almost to his side of the map. aka winning.
I'm not even gonna argue about that. I won the series 2-0, so I was not going to replay a series I just won.
Even worse, the kid BM's the entire game, and then knows he's losing so pauses the game for 2 minutes to bitch to admins to re-game it in the middle of the game. IT'd be nice if at every tournament anyone entered, if you don't like how the game is going in your favor, you can message the admins and ask to end the game in a regame/draw...oh wait, that's laughable.
People may not like Avilo's turtle terran but beasty was bm the entire game. Slow paced game but amusing because of the bm. Avilo had larger army and making slow pushes before beasty left. Beasty had more resrouces. Don't know about the decision to re-game. Craftcup needs to instate a time limit on games if they have problem with overly long slow games.
Beastly may not like Avilo's style but he was doing the exact same thing. He had 3k mineral lead. Nothing was stopping him from making aggressive pushes.
OK, so both are disqualified, one for refusal to do a rematch (avilo) and one for BM (Beasty). Seems a reasonable decision, but it's hard to keep everybody happy.
On February 10 2011 08:57 tree.hugger wrote: People seem to be forgetting that Gomas, who is a Polish player (late at night for him), is waiting for this series to finish. You cannot allow one player to wait for two hours just to allow a de facto stalemate to work itself out.
So postpone the finals. That would be a more legit decision than anything like this.
On February 10 2011 08:57 tree.hugger wrote: People seem to be forgetting that Gomas, who is a Polish player (late at night for him), is waiting for this series to finish. You cannot allow one player to wait for two hours just to allow a de facto stalemate to work itself out.
So postpone the finals. That would be a more legit decision than anything like this.
Obviously. I was winning the game, and any tournament with common sense would let you play it out and postpone the finals.
That would be common sense. But no. Craftcup instead decides to DQ the player that won.
Both shouldnt be disqualified, only beastyshitty should be disqualified.
Who plays a game, 1 hour in, pauses and starts to msg admins, cause he can't beat avilo. Game is not over till someone is dead, Beastyshitty just leaves the game, therefore he lost... 2-0 avilo over beastyqt....
On February 10 2011 08:57 tree.hugger wrote: People seem to be forgetting that Gomas, who is a Polish player (late at night for him), is waiting for this series to finish. You cannot allow one player to wait for two hours just to allow a de facto stalemate to work itself out.
So postpone the finals. That would be a more legit decision than anything like this.
Obviously. I was winning the game, and any tournament with common sense would let you play it out and postpone the finals.
That would be common sense. But no. Craftcup instead decides to DQ the player that won.
Avilo gets screwed by his playstyle and Beasty's complaining.
CraftCup realizes that there would be to much fallout over their decision should Beasty win after the way the semifinal ended so they DQ him for BM and preserve the status quo.
On February 10 2011 08:57 tree.hugger wrote: People seem to be forgetting that Gomas, who is a Polish player (late at night for him), is waiting for this series to finish. You cannot allow one player to wait for two hours just to allow a de facto stalemate to work itself out.
So postpone the finals. That would be a more legit decision than anything like this.
Obviously. I was winning the game, and any tournament with common sense would let you play it out and postpone the finals.
That would be common sense. But no. Craftcup instead decides to DQ the player that won.
.....
After they decided that they would not let the game play out due to time issues, it's on you to accept (regame) or deny (risk of being DQd) the decision.
And in the end, they DQd the player that refused to regame.
On February 10 2011 09:04 teacherWISH wrote: Both shouldnt be disqualified, only beastyshitty should be disqualified.
Who plays a game, 1 hour in, pauses and starts to msg admins, cause he can't beat avilo. Game is not over till someone is dead, Beastyshitty just leaves the game, therefore he lost... 2-0 avilo over beastyqt....
I first watched this tourny, for the first time today.
Avilo got BM'ed the entire time, before during and after the game for his play style. His exact play style, was then MIRROR COPIED by his opponent, Beasty, so anyone who wants to complain about that, that's fine, but playstyles cannot be mocked here, they were identical.
I would also like to say the casters were EXTREMELY unprofessional... to the point that I would advise anyone interested to never watch again, they were that bad. Just my opinion, sorry if anyone takes that offensively, I just feel you can be unbiased/professional while casting a tourny.
The game itself, while slow, Avilo was making progress by nukes -> pushing tanks up little by little. This may sound unfeasible and not cost effective... but there were so many minerals in the bank it was working. Anyone who thinks that was a draw was simply watching a different game. The only reason that was a draw, was because QT was crying the entire time, and frankly refusing to play. There was enough movement out that game could have been won/lost, there was movement, both players were not AFK. The fact that one player does not want a Re-make should be enough that there was progress coming along. Neither player wants a game to stalemate, so if they are given the option and one player refuses, he should not be punished because the other is hating on a strategy. A slow-moving strat, while cheesy and annoying, is not a stalemate, sorry.
Not trying to cause drama, just my two cents. If you want to watch a tourny, find a different one, this one is poorly run, and commentated, imo =).
Edit--- Due to responses, I watched the link on the TL live stream, I'm sorry i didnt catch the casters name.
Also I would like to add that 'unprofessional' would be joking that they were going to take naps as casters, and then rotating through while taking breaks while making the others cast by themselves. It was a 1 hour game, while long, I feel that was uncalled for. If you don't agree, more power to you. I personally feel like this made the tournament feel very unprofessional. Also, as i stated, this was the only 'round' of this tournament i saw, and it was enough to turn me off of it. If you feel i should give it more time, sorry it was that displeasing to me.
On February 10 2011 08:36 TheMenace wrote: I am sorry but Special Endrey made a fool out of himself. Not only that he is casting completely wasted but beeing so one sided in favor of Beastyqt makes me sad. I understand that the game betweeen Beasty and Avilo wasn't entertaining whatsoever but both were playing there games and a caster should respect that.
Also the admins decision seems doubtful to me. Good night craftcup.
He never really struck me as the sharpest tool in the shed tbh.
On February 10 2011 09:03 Bobster wrote: Was beasty DQd for his bm in the avilo match? Or did he bm gomas as well?
He probably BM'd Gomez in the hope it would gain him a free win from the admins like it did in the semis.
hehe
On February 10 2011 09:05 Postman wrote: Avilo gets screwed by his playstyle and Beasty's complaining.
CraftCup realizes that there would be to much fallout over their decision should Beasty win after the way the semifinal ended so they DQ him for BM and preserve the status quo.
This tourny turned into a bit of a trainwreck.
If that was the reason to DQ beasty, that was horrible fucking timing.
Do so directly after the beasty vs avilo game, not after they already played one match in the finals ffs.
On February 10 2011 09:06 Viperxx wrote: I would also like to say the casters were EXTREMELY unprofessional... to the point that I would advise anyone interested to never watch again, they were that bad. Just my opinion, sorry if anyone takes that offensively, I just feel you can be unbiased/professional while casting a tourny.
Which of the casts did you watch, just for reference? Imbatv or Special Endrey?
Every post you make reduces the credibility, better put your stuff together after you talk with the admins and make 1 single post. would be better, now you are only giving everyone ground to call you things.
On February 10 2011 08:57 tree.hugger wrote: People seem to be forgetting that Gomas, who is a Polish player (late at night for him), is waiting for this series to finish. You cannot allow one player to wait for two hours just to allow a de facto stalemate to work itself out.
This cuts both ways, at which point does being fair to Avilo and Beastyqt mean being unfair to Gomas. I think Beasty's BM was poor form, but Avilo really needed to accept a draw in that situation.
No, he doesn't need to accept a draw. If they don't want long games, make a rule about it. Don't come an hour+ into a game and force a draw on a game that was CLEARLY not a draw at that point. Tournaments should not dictate to a player how they're allowed to play the game. You work around the game, not force your opinion on players as to what a proper game of SC2 should be.
Gomas is not in this conversation at all. If it comes down to Gomas having to leave due to delay, a rescheduled finals would have been fine in my opinion. Yeah, it would mess with CraftCup planning, but oh well, it's better than what ended up happening.
I think it was an absolutely horrible decision. If Avilo still thinks he has a chance to win the game and is showing signs of doing something (which he was, although quite slowly) you can't just leave and say ''Regame''. The game was not over by any means, both players could still win. How does not liking your opponents playstyle warrant a regame?
On February 10 2011 08:57 tree.hugger wrote: People seem to be forgetting that Gomas, who is a Polish player (late at night for him), is waiting for this series to finish. You cannot allow one player to wait for two hours just to allow a de facto stalemate to work itself out.
So postpone the finals. That would be a more legit decision than anything like this.
Obviously. I was winning the game, and any tournament with common sense would let you play it out and postpone the finals.
That would be common sense. But no. Craftcup instead decides to DQ the player that won.
.....
After they decided that they would not let the game play out due to time issues, it's on you to accept (regame) or deny (risk of being DQd) the decision.
And in the end, they DQd the player that refused to regame.
There is no logic in "we cannot let the game play out due to time issues" THUS "we are going to have a regame".
If time is the issue you don't start another game.
I for one will never be watching another CraftCup. When avilo was pusing and had a huge lead they call it. Craftcup is now a huge joke to watch; let alone to waste their time to play in. I am all for promoting Esports but these guys are making people not want to watch it.
On February 10 2011 09:08 Holgerius wrote: I think it was an absolutely horrible decision. If Avilo still thinks he has a chance to win the game and is showing signs of doing something (which he was, although quite slowly) you can't just leave and say ''Regame''. The game was not over by any means, both players could still win. How does not liking your opponents playstyle warrant a regame?
Just to make this clear: the admins decided to call this game a draw and told the players to leave.
On February 10 2011 08:57 tree.hugger wrote: People seem to be forgetting that Gomas, who is a Polish player (late at night for him), is waiting for this series to finish. You cannot allow one player to wait for two hours just to allow a de facto stalemate to work itself out.
So postpone the finals. That would be a more legit decision than anything like this.
Obviously. I was winning the game, and any tournament with common sense would let you play it out and postpone the finals.
That would be common sense. But no. Craftcup instead decides to DQ the player that won.
.....
After they decided that they would not let the game play out due to time issues, it's on you to accept (regame) or deny (risk of being DQd) the decision.
And in the end, they DQd the player that refused to regame.
There is no logic in "we cannot let the game play out due to time issues" THUS "we are going to have a regame".
If time is the issue you don't start another game.
On February 10 2011 09:06 Viperxx wrote: Not trying to cause drama, just my two cents. If you want to watch a tourny, find a different one, this one is poorly run, and commentated, imo =).
This sentence alone disqualifies your whole post as nonsense. There were at least 4 casters here, and there are also different ones every tournament. Casters are NOT direcctly asociated with the tournament. Also, because of one decision you have witnessed and dont like, you believe you can judge how this tournament is run as a whole? Apart from that, you will find the very same admins also in other tournaments.
On February 10 2011 09:08 Holgerius wrote: I think it was an absolutely horrible decision. If Avilo still thinks he has a chance to win the game and is showing signs of doing something (which he was, although quite slowly) you can't just leave and say ''Regame''. The game was not over by any means, both players could still win. How does not liking your opponents playstyle warrant a regame?
Just to make this clear: the admins decided to call this game a draw and told the players to leave.
That doesn't make the decision good. The game wasn't over, Avilo wanted to continue to play and he thought he could win.
Here's a convo with one of the admins during and after the game, even more lulz is that they say in the regame no1 is allowed to play Terran...LOL...I think you guys can see what happpened during this tournament...
DURING BEASTY'S BM WHINEY PAUSE: brotkohl: so the decision is that it will be a regame and no1 is allowed to play t
avilo: lol im about to finish this up
brotkohl: u had 1 hour to finish it u didnt so now u leave
avilo: thing is im winning lofl
brotkohl: thing is it will take another 2 hours and no1 wants to see this
avilo: well then give me the win i'm further ahead more ravens etc
brotkohl: leave now if u refuse to play beasty gets a freewin
avilo: are you kidding me
AFTER BEASTY'S BITCHING AND ADMINS TELL HIM TO LEAVE: avilo: i just won that series fair and square there's no way he could have won from that position he's out of gas and i had 4k gas in the bank watch the replay
brotkohl: he actually had more gas i told u if u refuse to play
avilo: either way i won
brotkohl: then u r out
avilo: why would you dQ me when i just won the series? i had the watchtowers etc and a better unit comp
brotkohl: ur call u play or not? avilo: is this how you play in europe? i just won the series... that's bullshit just because u or someone else doesn't like HOW im playing doesn't mean i just did not win that series be FAIR this is SC2 not "who you liike more SC2' i won that game fair and square
brotkohl: i want ur decision u play or not?
avilo: i just won the series u can't disqualify someolne because his opponent dislikes how he plays
brotkohl: so u dont want to play? avilo: i just did play my match i won 2-0 vs beasty i just won the match i will post this on TL afterwards if you want to DQ me after i won just because you dislike my playstyle
brotkohl: im still waiting for a decision avilo: i'm waiting for your guys decision i won the match why don't you give the win to the player that won ?
brotkohl: i told u our decision if u dont play beasty advances
avilo: ur decision is to give it to beastyqt because he bitched? i just did play i won 2-0
brotkohl: u get 1 min to give me an answer
avilo: i gave you my answer i just won the series
brotkohl: so u wont replay?
avilo: replay what? dude i just won 2-0 vs qt
brotkohl: that second game avilo: explain how the second game doesn't count?
brotkohl: so what i see in this response is a "no i dont play vs beasty" am i right?
avilo: who do i play next? i jsut did play beasty i won 2-0 you saw it as well as everyone on stream i'm going to post this entire convo + everything else on TL if you seriously DQ me due to my PLAYSTYLE i won the series fair and square you know it i've never heard of a tournament where one player can BITCH for the win
On February 10 2011 08:57 tree.hugger wrote: People seem to be forgetting that Gomas, who is a Polish player (late at night for him), is waiting for this series to finish. You cannot allow one player to wait for two hours just to allow a de facto stalemate to work itself out.
So postpone the finals. That would be a more legit decision than anything like this.
Obviously. I was winning the game, and any tournament with common sense would let you play it out and postpone the finals.
That would be common sense. But no. Craftcup instead decides to DQ the player that won.
.....
After they decided that they would not let the game play out due to time issues, it's on you to accept (regame) or deny (risk of being DQd) the decision.
And in the end, they DQd the player that refused to regame.
There is no logic in "we cannot let the game play out due to time issues" THUS "we are going to have a regame".
If time is the issue you don't start another game.
I dunno, man. I honestly believe the game would have gone on for another couple hours at this rate. At what point can.. at what point should the admins step in and make a decision?
On February 10 2011 09:08 Holgerius wrote: I think it was an absolutely horrible decision. If Avilo still thinks he has a chance to win the game and is showing signs of doing something (which he was, although quite slowly) you can't just leave and say ''Regame''. The game was not over by any means, both players could still win. How does not liking your opponents playstyle warrant a regame?
Just to make this clear: the admins decided to call this game a draw and told the players to leave.
That doesn't make the decision good. The game wasn't over, Avilo wanted to continue to play and he thought he could win.
Oh yeah, absolutely. I already said that I have a hard time agreeing with the decision as well. I definitely wouldn't call it a "good" decision. I was just clarifying the facts to that guy who thought that beasty left on his own.
So here's the pertinent parts of the conversation:
brotkohl: so the decision is that it will be a regame and no1 is allowed to play t
avilo: lol im about to finish this up
brotkohl: u had 1 hour to finish it u didnt so now u leave
avilo: thing is im winning lofl
brotkohl: thing is it will take another 2 hours and no1 wants to see this
I disagree with the admin's decision to end the game right there. Should've given avilo and beasty an ultimatum at the hour mark with little to no progress done and the game still up in the air (avilo with the better army, beasty with the bigger bank) - like, I dunno... "the game will be declared a draw at X:XX minutes"
BUT! After that (bad) decision was made, it's on avilo to follow the tournament organisers decision for a regame, imo.
edit: also, fucking lol at the "no1 is allowed to play t" bit. That's just fucking ridiculous.
On February 10 2011 08:57 tree.hugger wrote: People seem to be forgetting that Gomas, who is a Polish player (late at night for him), is waiting for this series to finish. You cannot allow one player to wait for two hours just to allow a de facto stalemate to work itself out.
I think that this was one of the main factors along with the fact that they did not want to tournament to run until like 3:00am, however I think things could have been handled much more smoothly. And while I see where the decision is coming from I don't agree with it at all.
I think a better call would have been to let the games go on and reschedule the finals for a later date. If the tournament admins need to go to bed, (remember the fact that these guys all have jobs and that SC2 is likely not their breadwinner) have the players finish it out, and play the finals the next day. This way gomas (other finalist waiting on the winner) would not have to wait all night to play for $20 and the players would finish things out. If the players turtle up completely and go to bed leaving the game running, obviously that would warrent an obvious stalemate call and a regame, and there is no excuse for not regaming in that situation.
brotkohl: so the decision is that it will be a regame and no1 is allowed to play t
avilo: lol im about to finish this up
brotkohl: u had 1 hour to finish it u didnt so now u leave
avilo: thing is im winning lofl
brotkohl: thing is it will take another 2 hours and no1 wants to see this
Fuck, that is a tough call to make. I disagree with the admin's decision to end the game right there. Should've given avilo and beasty an ultimatum - the game will be declared a draw and end at X:XX minutes.
But after that (bad) decision was made, it's on avilo to follow the tournament organisers, imo.
Well if you would have told them it will be a regame in 20 mins the game would have just gone on for another 20 mins...
Avilo was telling the admin he was about to finish the game, and was actively pushing into Beastys side of the map. And yet, avilo is not allowed to continue the game. Everyone who was watching the stream must have seen that.
Also, the no one is allowed to play Terran? Lol? This is the most unprofessional thing I've ever seen.
I only watched the end of the game and not the first one, but i think the decision was reasonable. It is clearly a small scale tournament that is meant to be played on one evening. They can't delay it forever and let gomas wait. Rescheduling with people from different timezones and tournaments going on every day is also very hard to do. I can understand that you saw yourself as an advantage, but he had more resources which made it even. The admins have to do something, but at which point? What if the game goes on for another hour and it is still not clear who is winning? They will be well aware that their decision pisses people off, but not finishing the tournament is just as bad.
On February 10 2011 09:18 Bobster wrote: So here's the pertinent parts of the conversation:
brotkohl: so the decision is that it will be a regame and no1 is allowed to play t
avilo: lol im about to finish this up
brotkohl: u had 1 hour to finish it u didnt so now u leave
avilo: thing is im winning lofl
brotkohl: thing is it will take another 2 hours and no1 wants to see this
Fuck, that is a tough call to make. I disagree with the admin's decision to end the game right there. Should've given avilo and beasty an ultimatum - the game will be declared a draw and end at X:XX minutes.
But after that (bad) decision was made, it's on avilo to follow the tournament organisers, imo.
Well if you would have told them it will be a regame in 20 mins the game would have just gone on for another 20 mins...
Yep. So what if next game, it goes long again? And I'm ahead and going to kill him. Do we do another re-game just because beastyqt doesn't like how I play the game and that he's losing?
On February 10 2011 09:18 Bobster wrote: So here's the pertinent parts of the conversation:
brotkohl: so the decision is that it will be a regame and no1 is allowed to play t
avilo: lol im about to finish this up
brotkohl: u had 1 hour to finish it u didnt so now u leave
avilo: thing is im winning lofl
brotkohl: thing is it will take another 2 hours and no1 wants to see this
Fuck, that is a tough call to make. I disagree with the admin's decision to end the game right there. Should've given avilo and beasty an ultimatum - the game will be declared a draw and end at X:XX minutes.
But after that (bad) decision was made, it's on avilo to follow the tournament organisers, imo.
Well if you would have told them it will be a regame in 20 mins the game would have just gone on for another 20 mins...
Maybe, maybe not. avilo himself said he was "about to finish this up". It would've been reasonable to give him another 20 minutes to back up his word, THEN call it a draw.
I don't think either player would've bitched as much as they did if they had clarified this in advance. It's always best to involve all the players in these decisions, or at least inform them beforehand, instead of making them top-down against one of them, and spring it on them like this.
DoctorClock United States. February 10 2011 08:44. Posts 37 Profile # Very unprofessional call. Under what circumstances is it permissible to simply leave the game and demand a rematch because you don't like the way your opponent is playing? That is simply a forfeit and there is no reason Avilo should be expected to re-game. Furthermore, Beastyqt was continually whining and insulting Avilo as well as pausing the game for no given reason. The fact that Avilo may have problems with other sites does not make the call warranted. Both sides had armies, minerals, and unit producing structures. It was nowhere near a draw. The game may not have been exciting, but it was still not over
Agree! And also, please remove Special Endrey as a streamer beacause
TheMenace Germany. February 10 2011 08:36. Posts 28 PM Profile Quote # I am sorry but Special Endrey made a fool out of himself. Not only that he is casting completely wasted but beeing so one sided in favor of Beastyqt makes me sad. I understand that the game betweeen Beasty and Avilo wasn't entertaining whatsoever but both were playing there games and a caster should respect that.
On February 10 2011 09:22 IPS.ZeRo wrote: I only watched the end of the game and not the first one, but i think the decision was reasonable. It is clearly a small scale tournament that is meant to be played on one evening. They can't delay it forever and let gomas wait. Rescheduling with people from different timezones and tournaments going on every day is also very hard to do. I can understand that you saw yourself as an advantage, but he had more resources which made it even. The admins have to do something, but at which point? What if the game goes on for another hour and it is still not clear who is winning? They will be well aware that their decision pisses people off, but not finishing the tournament is just as bad.
How was having a regame, which was quite likely to take just as long given Avilo's playstyle, a good thing to do if they were running out of time?
On February 10 2011 09:22 IPS.ZeRo wrote: I only watched the end of the game and not the first one, but i think the decision was reasonable. It is clearly a small scale tournament that is meant to be played on one evening. They can't delay it forever and let gomas wait. Rescheduling with people from different timezones and tournaments going on every day is also very hard to do. I can understand that you saw yourself as an advantage, but he had more resources which made it even. The admins have to do something, but at which point? What if the game goes on for another hour and it is still not clear who is winning? They will be well aware that their decision pisses people off, but not finishing the tournament is just as bad.
How was having a regame, which was quite likely to take just as long given Avilo's playstyle, a good thing to do if they were running out of time?
They were probably banking on beasty not having the patience and ending it early with an SCV rush or somesuch. :lol
On February 10 2011 09:09 Smurphy wrote: There is no logic in "we cannot let the game play out due to time issues" THUS "we are going to have a regame".
If time is the issue you don't start another game.
I dunno, man. I honestly believe the game would have gone on for another couple hours at this rate. At what point can.. at what point should the admins step in and make a decision?
If you believe that this game could go on for another couple hours then how long do you believe the next game could last? Keep in mind that avilo is up 1-0. For beasty to win he needs to win twice.
If you believe that the next game should not be TvT what kind of precedence does this set for the tournament? The tournament is able to disallow players from playing their chosen race?
Your final line is a tough question: "At what point can.. at what point should the admins step in and make a decision?"
I'm not sure on the answer to that. However, without specific guidelines in place, I would not end the game in as subjective and arbitrary a manner as occurred in this tournament. Units were being destroyed. Tactical maneuvers were occurring. Starcraft was being played. I admit that it was being played at a very slow pace. I admit that it was not very entertaining. However, these are all within the realm of "the game of Starcraft".
If you don't want this style to be played in the future make some rules about it. Creating new rules MID-GAME destroys the integrity of the tournament. The shot-clock wasn't implemented in the middle of a basketball game. New rules should not be created in the middle of a Starcraft game.
On February 10 2011 09:18 Bobster wrote: So here's the pertinent parts of the conversation:
brotkohl: so the decision is that it will be a regame and no1 is allowed to play t
avilo: lol im about to finish this up
brotkohl: u had 1 hour to finish it u didnt so now u leave
avilo: thing is im winning lofl
brotkohl: thing is it will take another 2 hours and no1 wants to see this
Fuck, that is a tough call to make. I disagree with the admin's decision to end the game right there. Should've given avilo and beasty an ultimatum - the game will be declared a draw and end at X:XX minutes.
But after that (bad) decision was made, it's on avilo to follow the tournament organisers, imo.
Well if you would have told them it will be a regame in 20 mins the game would have just gone on for another 20 mins...
Yep. So what if next game, it goes long again? And I'm ahead and going to kill him. Do we do another re-game just because beastyqt doesn't like how I play the game and that he's losing?
=/
So that was the reason why they didnt want any1 to use terran, even though thats really a bad idea
Seriously though Avilo, aside from the decision being right or wrong... I really really wouldn't want to be playing in a way where i either win when my enemy gets impatient or where I might win within a long long long long time when he doesn't get impatient. But well, if you just want to be winning by staying longer in the game you can keep doing that i guess.
On February 10 2011 09:22 IPS.ZeRo wrote: I only watched the end of the game and not the first one, but i think the decision was reasonable. It is clearly a small scale tournament that is meant to be played on one evening. They can't delay it forever and let gomas wait. Rescheduling with people from different timezones and tournaments going on every day is also very hard to do. I can understand that you saw yourself as an advantage, but he had more resources which made it even. The admins have to do something, but at which point? What if the game goes on for another hour and it is still not clear who is winning? They will be well aware that their decision pisses people off, but not finishing the tournament is just as bad.
How was having a regame, which was quite likely to take just as long given Avilo's playstyle, a good thing to do if they were running out of time?
highschooled tournament admin knowledge, dont try to find any reasoning behind it, I it gave up myself with esl/craftcup/esgl and just accept the BS now and then :D
On February 10 2011 09:22 IPS.ZeRo wrote: I only watched the end of the game and not the first one, but i think the decision was reasonable. It is clearly a small scale tournament that is meant to be played on one evening. They can't delay it forever and let gomas wait. Rescheduling with people from different timezones and tournaments going on every day is also very hard to do. I can understand that you saw yourself as an advantage, but he had more resources which made it even. The admins have to do something, but at which point? What if the game goes on for another hour and it is still not clear who is winning? They will be well aware that their decision pisses people off, but not finishing the tournament is just as bad.
How was having a regame, which was quite likely to take just as long given Avilo's playstyle, a good thing to do if they were running out of time?
Exactly. You can do the math on what happened. Which is why I was very pissed. This is the first craftcup i enter in weeks, and i'm playing my ass off doing well and this shit happens. Disappointing for me too. I don't give a shit about the 20 as much as I just was happy I was playing good.
It's just sad that it basically boiled down (imo) to beasty whining that he didn't like my playstyle, so they gank me out of the 2-0.
The idea to not let them play T in the next game was absolutely stupid, ludicrous, just indefensible.
On February 10 2011 09:27 Smurphy wrote:Your final line is a tough question: "At what point can.. at what point should the admins step in and make a decision?"
I'm not sure on the answer to that. However, without specific guidelines in place, I would not end the game in as subjective and arbitrary a manner as occurred in this tournament. Units were being destroyed. Tactical maneuvers were occurring. Starcraft was being played. I admit that it was being played at a very slow pace. I admit that it was not very entertaining. However, these are all within the realm of "the game of Starcraft".
If you don't want this style to be played in the future make some rules about it. Creating new rules MID-GAME destroys the integrity of the tournament. The shot-clock wasn't implemented in the middle of a basketball game. New rules should not be created in the middle of a Starcraft game.
Yeah, and that's absolutely the key question here.
I'm trying to find some Craftcup.com rules to check if there's anything pertaining to this incident in there, something about admin powers, game length and regame rules. But the craftcup.com site is so shitty, I can't even find the rules.
As a fun sidenote, this is the most traffic this thread has seen since its inception. :lol
I don't think the admins deserve all this hate. They were trying to be considerate to the other finalist and simply the fact that they needed to go to bed and probably work the next day had to make a tough call.
Althought tbh I don't like the call and I agree that a regame would have not actually solved a thing. Instead playing it out and a reschedule of the finals to me would have been a better choice.
If you make your opponent play a game that he doesn't want to play you are doing everything right. Starcraft 2 is a game that demands patience and a lot of players are lacking in that departement why not abuse that?
On February 10 2011 09:22 IPS.ZeRo wrote: I only watched the end of the game and not the first one, but i think the decision was reasonable. It is clearly a small scale tournament that is meant to be played on one evening. They can't delay it forever and let gomas wait. Rescheduling with people from different timezones and tournaments going on every day is also very hard to do. I can understand that you saw yourself as an advantage, but he had more resources which made it even. The admins have to do something, but at which point? What if the game goes on for another hour and it is still not clear who is winning? They will be well aware that their decision pisses people off, but not finishing the tournament is just as bad.
How was having a regame, which was quite likely to take just as long given Avilo's playstyle, a good thing to do if they were running out of time?
Exactly. You can do the math on what happened. Which is why I was very pissed.
Ya, I am quite upset myself, and I'm not even a fan of you.
There are real stale-mate situations where no player can possibly win the game, this wasn't one of them.
Players who cause huge delays by going afk or having a lot of DCs may possibly be removed from a running tournament. The active admin can take this decision when a match delays the progress of the whole tournament.
Hm. Progress of the tournament was being delayed, but not due to discs or going afk.
On disconnects:
Disconnecting: Freewin/Walk-Over will be granted if a) the one who disced was behind, b) the player who did not disc actually wants a walk over. Otherwise rematch.
Hm. No one was behind, the admins ordered the players to leave the game.
Also, on the wat front:
Selected livestreams are granted a wildcard per tournament to turn a BO1 into BO3. Needs to be verified by a referee.
On February 10 2011 09:22 IPS.ZeRo wrote: I only watched the end of the game and not the first one, but i think the decision was reasonable. It is clearly a small scale tournament that is meant to be played on one evening. They can't delay it forever and let gomas wait. Rescheduling with people from different timezones and tournaments going on every day is also very hard to do. I can understand that you saw yourself as an advantage, but he had more resources which made it even. The admins have to do something, but at which point? What if the game goes on for another hour and it is still not clear who is winning? They will be well aware that their decision pisses people off, but not finishing the tournament is just as bad.
How was having a regame, which was quite likely to take just as long given Avilo's playstyle, a good thing to do if they were running out of time?
They said they wouldn't allow them to play terran. I know its silly and now after reading the suggestion to just give 20 minutes and see what happens (although i doubt much would happen) i would tend to try that first, but tournament admins just have the duty to keep the tournament running. What would you do if such a game of avilo happens in round 1? and round 2 ... and round 3...? He would still argue that nobody should be disqualified because people don't like his playstyle. However it would delay the tournament forever. The point they choose to end it might not have been ideal, but you have to admit that there has to be a point where admins have to act.
On February 10 2011 09:33 Puremiss wrote: I don't think the admins deserve all this hate. They were trying to be considerate to the other finalist and simply the fact that they needed to go to bed and probably work the next day had to make a tough call.
Althought tbh I don't like the call and I agree that a regame would have not actually solved a thing. Instead playing it out and a reschedule of the finals to me would have been a better choice.
Did you read the chatlog with the admin? You didn't come away thinking he was a retard not fit to run anything?
That was outrageous. Being considerate towards a player who's waiting can't possibly be a reason for admins to call a draw in a game that's still going. I have never seen avilo play before, and to be quite frank I don't care if his strategy is considered lame and gay - if you have a strategy that is within the boundaries of the game then there's nothing to whine about. If the players don't agree that it's a stalemate, then it's not and the game should continue.
As for Mr. Special Olympics Endrey I couldn't bear to listen to the guy after a while. I will happily overlook any speech impediment (i.e. German accent) but being as biased as he was during this game is just plain annoying. Big boooh for you.
On February 10 2011 09:22 IPS.ZeRo wrote: I only watched the end of the game and not the first one, but i think the decision was reasonable. It is clearly a small scale tournament that is meant to be played on one evening. They can't delay it forever and let gomas wait. Rescheduling with people from different timezones and tournaments going on every day is also very hard to do. I can understand that you saw yourself as an advantage, but he had more resources which made it even. The admins have to do something, but at which point? What if the game goes on for another hour and it is still not clear who is winning? They will be well aware that their decision pisses people off, but not finishing the tournament is just as bad.
How was having a regame, which was quite likely to take just as long given Avilo's playstyle, a good thing to do if they were running out of time?
They said they wouldn't allow them to play terran. I know its silly and now after reading the suggestion to just give 20 minutes and see what happens (although i doubt much would happen) i would tend to try that first, but tournament admins just have the duty to keep the tournament running. What would you do if such a game of avilo happens in round 1? and round 2 ... and round 3...? He would still argue that nobody should be disqualified because people don't like his playstyle. However it would delay the tournament forever. The point they choose to end it might not have been ideal, but you have to admit that there has to be a point where admins have to act.
i know avilo plays like that all the fucking time its the most fucking annoying thing to play against, but its totally beatable. his style is retardedly annoying, but you cant say he isnt allowed to do it..
On February 10 2011 09:39 karnstan wrote: As for Mr. Special Olympics Endrey I couldn't bear to listen to the guy after a while. I will happily overlook any speech impediment (i.e. German accent) but being as biased as he was during this game is just plain annoying. Big boooh for you.
Players who cause huge delays by going afk or having a lot of DCs may possibly be removed from a running tournament. The active admin can take this decision when a match delays the progress of the whole tournament.
Hm.
Reread this. Your marked sentence referrs to the first. So this rule has nothing to do with the decision by the admins.Though there was/is no rule for DQing someone because his opponent is a dick or 1 plays an unattractive playstyle.
Craft Cup is dead for me. And I hope for a lot of other players too. We dont need Cups with biased and bad Organisation.
On February 10 2011 09:35 Bobster wrote: On delaying the tournament:
Players who cause huge delays by going afk or having a lot of DCs may possibly be removed from a running tournament. The active admin can take this decision when a match delays the progress of the whole tournament.
Hm.
Reread this. Your marked sentence referrs to the first. So this rule has nothing to do with the decision by the admins.Though there was/is no rule for DQing someone because his opponent is a dick or 1 plays an unattractive playstyle.
Craft Cup is dead for me. And I hope for a lot of other players too. We dont need Cups with biased and bad Organisation.
hes not going afk or having a lot of dcs. hes playing the game.
SO - i will post my personal recap here ... and well all those people insulting me on this thread prolly only watched a couple of minutes on my stream and did not get the whole picture ... i will post a full statement and the replay of the game in the next 10-15 minutes in this thread
On February 10 2011 09:35 Bobster wrote: On delaying the tournament:
Players who cause huge delays by going afk or having a lot of DCs may possibly be removed from a running tournament. The active admin can take this decision when a match delays the progress of the whole tournament.
Hm.
Reread this. Your marked sentence referrs to the first. So this rule has nothing to do with the decision by the admins.Though there was/is no rule for DQing someone because his opponent is a dick or 1 plays an unattractive playstyle.
Craft Cup is dead for me. And I hope for a lot of other players too. We dont need Cups with biased and bad Organisation.
hes not going afk or having a lot of dcs. hes playing the game.
Yea thats why i wrote that this rule didnt affect the game :>
@Endrey: You are totally biased. You even walk up Beastys a** after his DQ. You told the Admins you totally understand their decision and that it was the right one. After that you talk to Beasty and say you cant understand their decision. Sure, you are drunk but dude just become a bit professional. No need for blind fanboyism
I really enjoyed how they disqualified Beasty for BM in the next game but it was totally OK that he BM ed Avilo during their game? Next to the time I worked in fast food I have never seen anything ran as poorly as that tourney.
On February 10 2011 09:33 Puremiss wrote: I don't think the admins deserve all this hate. They were trying to be considerate to the other finalist and simply the fact that they needed to go to bed and probably work the next day had to make a tough call.
Althought tbh I don't like the call and I agree that a regame would have not actually solved a thing. Instead playing it out and a reschedule of the finals to me would have been a better choice.
Did you read the chatlog with the admin? You didn't come away thinking he was a retard not fit to run anything?
Wel the admin just didn't react to avilo demanding 2-0 and wanted to have avilo play the regame. They were both fixed on their decision and there was no possibility to discuss anything.
On February 10 2011 09:39 karnstan wrote: That was outrageous. Being considerate towards a player who's waiting can't possibly be a reason for admins to call a draw in a game that's still going. I have never seen avilo play before, and to be quite frank I don't care if his strategy is considered lame and gay - if you have a strategy that is within the boundaries of the game then there's nothing to whine about. If the players don't agree that it's a stalemate, then it's not and the game should continue.
As for Mr. Special Olympics Endrey I couldn't bear to listen to the guy after a while. I will happily overlook any speech impediment (i.e. German accent) but being as biased as he was during this game is just plain annoying. Big boooh for you.
I don't watch many streams usually, so i don't know how he is when is not drunk, but he even said that people who don't want to hear him talking bad about avilos playstyle should just switch the stream. I agree that casters shouldn't be completely biased, but if it is not THE official stream but somebody just streaming a little bit after getting drunk while watching football you should just switch to another stream.
And @pokebunny no need to flood the discussion with a million rage posts.
On February 10 2011 09:44 Maista wrote: In CraftCup LITE#39 semifinals avilo vs beastyqt Game 2 a situation came up that two out of two referees in charge, rated as a draw. We are not discussing if that is correct or not. All we say is that it was our perception.
But well, that's what everyone here is interested in discussing. Whether the decision to call this ongoing game a draw was correct and sensible or not.
That you DQd avilo for refusing to regame, and DQd beasty for BM afterwards were correct decisions following the internal logic of your proceedings, most aren't even denying that. It's that initial draw decision that's the crux here.
edit: ignoring the hilarious fact that you had an even number of referees for this. What if you disagree on something? >_>
On February 10 2011 09:44 Maista wrote: In CraftCup LITE#39 semifinals avilo vs beastyqt Game 2 a situation came up that two out of two referees in charge, rated as a draw. We are not discussing if that is correct or not. All we say is that it was our perception.
But well, that's what everyone here is interested in discussing. Whether the decision to call this ongoing game a draw was correct and sensible or not.
That you DQd avilo for refusing to regame, and DQd beasty for BM afterwards were correct decisions following the internal logic of your proceedings, most aren't even denying that. It's that initial draw decision that's the crux here.
In the end we are just humans. Imho a great feeling that i do not have to be perfect. Not saying that i don't try
On February 10 2011 09:52 Maista wrote: In the end we are just humans. Imho a great feeling that i do not have to be perfect. Not saying that i don't try
If you would even try becoming perfect, why do you make such a silly decision? No one wouldnt have done that decision.
On February 10 2011 09:52 Maista wrote: In the end we are just humans. Imho a great feeling that i do not have to be perfect. Not saying that i don't try
If you would even try becoming perfect, why do you make such a silly decision? Every Bronzeplayer wouldnt have done that one you did.
Like i stated i am not discussing opinions. if that was your interpretation of the scene thats okay. And i am also okay with others disagreeing. We take 500 correct decisions a week ;-) Pretty good quota, even if you are right with your opinion.
Maista you and the other referee were pressured into the decision by Beastyqt. Yes, you're not perfect, you're extremely unprofessional. You called the draw at a time when Avilo was actively pushing into Beastys base, Avilo even said in the transcript to the admin that he was about to finish the game up.
Your decision was wrong, way wrong, and you need to accept it. Just saying it's not up for discussion isn't really acceptable, considering the sheer amount of people who are in disbelief at your decision.
On February 10 2011 09:44 Maista wrote: In CraftCup LITE#39 semifinals avilo vs beastyqt Game 2 a situation came up that two out of two referees in charge, rated as a draw. We are not discussing if that is correct or not. All we say is that it was our perception.
But well, that's what everyone here is interested in discussing. Whether the decision to call this ongoing game a draw was correct and sensible or not.
That you DQd avilo for refusing to regame, and DQd beasty for BM afterwards were correct decisions following the internal logic of your proceedings, most aren't even denying that. It's that initial draw decision that's the crux here.
In the end we are just humans. Imho a great feeling that i do not have to be perfect. Not saying that i don't try
Fair enough.
Would be a good idea to maybe add something to that effect in the rules, so you can fall back on hard writing in the future.
I was really enjoying that game sure it was slow moving. That is why you have casters to make it exciting. Day9 or even totalbiscuit would not have been talking about how long and boring the game was. Instead they would make the game even more epic than it was. :-)
On February 10 2011 10:01 AbaNdonFaiTH wrote: I was really enjoying that game sure it was slow moving. That is why you have casters to make it exciting. Day9 or even totalbiscuit would not have been talking about how long and boring the game was. Instead they would make the game even more epic than it was. :-)
I was also enjoying the game. It was something new, it was different. It wasn't a 4 gate or a roach all in. It was something I had never seen before and I was actually really enjoying it. It was a tactical masterclass like an hour long game of chess.
On February 10 2011 09:59 UnholyRai wrote: Maista you and the other referee were pressured into the decision by Beastyqt. Yes, you're not perfect, you're extremely unprofessional. You called the draw at a time when Avilo was actively pushing into Beastys base, Avilo even said in the transcript to the admin that he was about to finish the game up.
Till now i have never spoken a single word with beastyqt. The rest of what you said is already covered a dozen of times, sorry i won't repeat myself.
##
Everybody who wants to discuss this in detail is welcome to chat with me face to face. I am always open to fresh ideas to situations like that. Simply send me a PM.
I also highly apreciate the amount of emails i already got with both positive and negative feedback. This will all help to improve our decision making in the future.
The usual procedure includes inforimg the two players and then replaying the match. As both players were set to busy ingame it took much longer for somebody to actually receive the message via another chat client.
Why do the admins not join the game as refs? As referees they can talk to the players and pause the game in such a situation. And they dont need another chat client.
Maista, if you're listening to suggestions, I propose a 20 minute warning on the height of this game's boringness tactical slowness. Let avilo back up his "I'm about to finish this up" line and eliminate his chance to talk back upon receiving the final decision since you informed him before and gave both players ample warning to change the situation.
Let the situation play out like that and delay the final.
Forget the idea of forcing these players to choose their off-races, just act as if you've never had that idea and posted about it. Forget that ever happened. Now. I won't tell.
On February 10 2011 09:59 UnholyRai wrote: Maista you and the other referee were pressured into the decision by Beastyqt. Yes, you're not perfect, you're extremely unprofessional. You called the draw at a time when Avilo was actively pushing into Beastys base, Avilo even said in the transcript to the admin that he was about to finish the game up.
Till now i have never spoken a single word with beastyqt. The rest of what you said is already covered a dozen of times, sorry i won't repeat myself.
## .
Semantics, regardless of which admin was in contact with beastyqt - they were pressured into the decision by him, that much is blatantly obvious to anyone who watched the stream.
I haven't seen the rest covered at all, except by you saying it's not up for discussion.
Okay, since there is some drama over this i'll write my point of view.
First of all, if I knew games will be 1hour 20min long each I would give him free win, because someone who's tactic is to make game as long and as boring is possible is clearly a person who wants to win really bad, probably for money because he wont get "fame" for sure with that playstyle.
Difference between avilo's BM and mine is that he was BM to me in first game telling me to leave and then after the game being BM on whisper and then putting me on ignore, but ofc others couldnt see it that. Was I bm to him? yes I was, I dont think player like him should be allowed to play any tournaments. Tournaments are made to take money, practise, get "fame" and have fun (for players) and there is other side - a viewer part where they want to see a good games and maybe even learn something from them. avilo playing that game failed to achieve any of that and with his play made all this drama and made everyone's evening boring - game wise.
I noticed some people said I cried and whined, I dont really look at it like that, WHOLE this thing is pretty funny for me, sure like I said I was bm to him during second game I did it to make game little bit "better" in viewer pov and to have fun myself, but again I wasnt mad and im not mad atm - like I said whole this thing is funny to me
Some people said he was "in adventage" because he pushed 5 meters in game? lol I could keep pulling back for another 3 hours, I had 25k minerals and 6k gas while he had lower. He pushed at left side at which there was NOTHING valuable to destroy, there was 2 expos which were mined out and couple of rax/factory/starport which can be lifted and moved away. By doing that I could in theory play that game for another 2-3 hours. Do you really think after 1 hour 30min gave and me having 25k minerals and 6 gas he would kill me 10-20-30-60 minutes after..? Did you even watch the game and see that in 1 hour 30minutes he progressed from his gold to xel naga towers? Im not saying I had the win or that he did, all I know game wouldnt finish in 3 hours or less in game.
Some of you said "calling someone lame when you are doing same build", just proves how much that person doesnt anything about starcraft. I started with normal mmm/tank/medivac play, I tried to push in on several places, I droped in his base but I cant break 1000 turrets and 100 tanks without losing game by eventually not having minerals to reproduce. If you are dealing full mech for example you cant make marines (I think thats obvious) you need to make tanks and marauders, if he makes ravens with upgrades and vikings I cant make helions, I have to make same - sounds logical enough? Think about it.
Some people said I was BM when I paused game, I was talking to admins during that time and then people said I was BM for leaving and asking regame, I didnt quit and ask for regame, admins told me to leave it.
For people who said "i'll never watch Craftcup again", thats just wrong. Just because 2 players had an argument and because of 2 players turning the tournament the way it was doesnt mean that every next or previous tournament was and will be like that. Craftcup will still be great.
Opinions about admin decision making is different, some may think they did good or that they did bad thing. I dont mind admins DQ'ing me from event because I was BM after all and he did deserve it after whispering me and was BM while doing it even tho no one saw it Only thing I dont like about craftcup admins after this - 2 weeks ago one player was very BM to me, in game and in whisper, I contacted admin about it and I got "ok" answer and I didnt get any other reply nor' anything was done about it and now I get DQ'd for same thing that was done to me 2 weeks ago.
Craftcup admins are still one of best out there, Craftcup as tournament is great as well, in my last interview I did say that my favourite tournament is Craftcup because of admins, casters and how tournament was made overall, sure they maybe made mistake but they are human after all. I got dissapointed by all admins of Craftcup with their decision about DQing me for being BM (not because it wasnt right decision but because nothing was done 2 weeks before it).
After all this im pretty happy, I know Gomas he is very nice guy, he deserved to win and im not butthurt for not winning Craftcup. Some people might like me some dont, but remember its all a game and not life or death situation and you werent part of it, you are just watching - take it easy.
I really wish Craftcup all best, because they are one of the best
Semantics, regardless of which admin was in ..... I haven't seen the rest covered at all, except by you saying it's not up for discussion.
let's skip the semantics and get to the facts.. its just $20 4+ hour tournament run for lower tier players to have fun... you're taking this too seriously and over analyzing every thing. even if the admins made an error...
you can make more money collecting empty beer cans and pop bottles than spending 4+ hours in this event.
Semantics, regardless of which admin was in ..... I haven't seen the rest covered at all, except by you saying it's not up for discussion.
let's skip the semantics and get to the facts.. its just $20 4+ hour tournament run for lower tier players to have fun... you're taking this too seriously and over analyzing every thing. even if the admins made an error...
you can make more money collecting empty beer cans and pop bottles than spending 4+ hours in this event.
That isn't the point here. I thought all featured tournaments on TL.net were meant to be professionally run. I guess you're saying I'm wrong about that?
The admins being pressured would say more about the admins than the players obviously, if they bend over that easily for pressure(/whining), they would(/shoud) be replaced. Admins can't be biased or persuaded over their decisions. If they are, they should get a "black mark" or something for future evaluation.
A special match indeed, though watching Endrey's stream, I don't think any of it should have consequences for him atleast, I laughed even before he laughed, I had already "seen" what was about happen before he commented. Yeh, I can go with slightly biased, but concidering last match, IDK if he had some comments regarding anvilo's style. If you can't handle comments on your style of play, then what are you doing playing this game???
Not saying I liked the BM'ing by beast, that was not needed from him.
Watch ANY sport and you'll see biased casters... Endrey was drunk (I thought it was great entertainment in a otherwise rather boring first hour of gameplay of game2). Yes, you'll never see that happening on Eurosport or on a live GSL or something, but with 3 streams from the tournament, why would it matter? It said in his stream info, he stated it multiple times, and it was entertaining. Exactly what the SC2 scene needs (not drunk casters but entertainment).
I'm not saying it's ok for all the casters to be drunk, but as i tuned in, I'd rather watch his stream nevertheless than the two other streams up, as I myself (true, biased towards Endrey) enjoy his stream more than the LQ one and the other one that was casting replays at the time.
Semantics, regardless of which admin was in ..... I haven't seen the rest covered at all, except by you saying it's not up for discussion.
let's skip the semantics and get to the facts.. its just $20 4+ hour tournament run for lower tier players to have fun... you're taking this too seriously and over analyzing every thing. even if the admins made an error...
you can make more money collecting empty beer cans and pop bottles than spending 4+ hours in this event.
Same Jim Raynor as the one casting I will assume. Feel free to stop casting since you find the games so boring. No one needs to hear you trash talk the players in game either.
So lets skip your falsities and get back to facts. The admins unjustly DQ'ed a player and are now having to deal with the backlash.
On February 10 2011 10:29 UnholyRai wrote: That isn't the point here. I thought all featured tournaments on TL.net were meant to be professionally run. I guess you're saying I'm wrong about that?
Raynor would rather talk shit on stream than do a professional cast. So he would say you are wrong.
Avilo’s playstyle was rlly cheap, there should be rules in SC Esports about playing too passive. Don’t get me wrong I don’t mean that you lose if you dont attack for a while, but playing a game where the only thing ur focused on is defending everything and have no intention of attacking ever you should get punished. He does it all the time on NA ladder too sadly enough. Beasty should have stayed cool and just let the admins decide tho.
So I can completely understand this decision from the admins
That isn't the point here. I thought all featured tournaments on TL.net were meant to be professionally run. I guess you're saying I'm wrong about that?
relative to the other streams our events are run professionally. relative to an event like the Super Bowl we are not as good.
you are taking this issue too seriously... CCup has made 60 events in 6 months. judgement errors will occur with this large number of events...
at this point i am still gathering info to determine if it was a bad decision or not. at the time i thought it was correct.. .but i was in the middle of doing 20 things at once.
and with that said... there are 2 events per week... any player can always just join the next FREE event a few days later and try to win the Cup... very very few top players are involved.. its essentially a "for-fun" event.
i think the admins at ccup have already spent too much time on this...
on the tuesday event half the challenge is checking in on time.. slow check ins eliminated hundreds every tuesday
On February 10 2011 10:40 Jakkerr wrote: Avilo’s playstyle was rlly cheap, there should be rules in SC Esports about playing too passive. Don’t get me wrong I don’t mean that you lose if you dont attack for a while, but playing a game where the only thing ur focused on is defending everything and have no intention of attacking ever you should get punished. He does it all the time on NA ladder too sadly enough. Beasty should have stayed cool and just let the admins decide tho.
So I can completely understand this decision from the admins
Why should there be rules against playing defensively? What's wrong with playing defense? How could you word a rule that wasn't entirely subjective and arbitrary? Also, if you do implement such a rule you don't put it in place MID-GAME without warning.
The best analogy is the shot-clock in basketball. The shot-clock in basketball was not implemented in the middle of a basketball game. My understanding of basketball is pretty low but I believe that the shot-clock has an objective way to be enforced. A team in possession has 24 seconds to hit the rim. If they don't hit the rim then there is a forced turnover.
How would you make such an objective "too passive" rule in Starcraft? Every 2 minutes you need to kill a unit? That rule would be violated in many games. Also, that rule wouldn't have come into affect in the beasty-avilo game. Units were being killed.
Would you make an hour time-limit on games? How would this help? The game would be a draw and the score in the avilo-beast series would then be 1-0-1 going into the third game. Is this a viable solution?
How would you create and enforce a "too passive" rule.
On February 10 2011 10:44 JimmyJRaynor wrote: at this point i am still gathering info to determine if it was a bad decision or not. at the time i thought it was correct.. .but i was in the middle of doing 20 things at once.
You didn't have time to analyze the decision but found plenty of time to bad mouth a player multiple times. Sounds REAL professional....
That isn't the point here. I thought all featured tournaments on TL.net were meant to be professionally run. I guess you're saying I'm wrong about that?
relative to the other streams our events are run professionally. relative to an event like the Super Bowl we are not as good.
you are taking this issue too seriously... CCup has made 60 events in 6 months. judgement errors will occur with this large number of events...
at this point i am still gathering info to determine if it was a bad decision or not. at the time i thought it was correct.. .but i was in the middle of doing 20 things at once.
and with that said... there are 2 events per week... any player can always just join the next FREE event a few days later and try to win the Cup... very very few top players are involved.. its essentially a for fun event.
on the tuesday event half the challenge is checking in on time.. slow check ins eliminated hundreds every tuesday
Why would Avilo ever even consider wanting to play another Craftcup after being treated like this? Do you realise how much you casters were insulting him? At one point one caster even compared him to a handicapped person who was on a youtube video they were overlaying onto the stream.
I'm not talking about other streams, I'm talking about actual tournaments. I have never seen anything like this in any other featured tournament here and that's what I have the issue with.
On February 10 2011 10:26 Beastyqt wrote: Okay, since there is some drama over this i'll write my point of view.
First of all, if I knew games will be 1hour 20min long each I would give him free win, because someone who's tactic is to make game as long and as boring is possible is clearly a person who wants to win really bad, probably for money because he wont get "fame" for sure with that playstyle.
Difference between avilo's BM and mine is that he was BM to me in first game telling me to leave and then after the game being BM on whisper and then putting me on ignore, but ofc others couldnt see it that. Was I bm to him? yes I was, I dont think player like him should be allowed to play any tournaments. Tournaments are made to take money, practise, get "fame" and have fun (for players) and there is other side - a viewer part where they want to see a good games and maybe even learn something from them. avilo playing that game failed to achieve any of that and with his play made all this drama and made everyone's evening boring - game wise.
I noticed some people said I cried and whined, I dont really look at it like that, WHOLE this thing is pretty funny for me, sure like I said I was bm to him during second game I did it to make game little bit "better" in viewer pov and to have fun myself, but again I wasnt mad and im not mad atm - like I said whole this thing is funny to me
Some people said he was "in adventage" because he pushed 5 meters in game? lol I could keep pulling back for another 3 hours, I had 25k minerals and 6k gas while he had lower. He pushed at left side at which there was NOTHING valuable to destroy, there was 2 expos which were mined out and couple of rax/factory/starport which can be lifted and moved away. By doing that I could in theory play that game for another 2-3 hours. Do you really think after 1 hour 30min gave and me having 25k minerals and 6 gas he would kill me 10-20-30-60 minutes after..? Did you even watch the game and see that in 1 hour 30minutes he progressed from his gold to xel naga towers? Im not saying I had the win or that he did, all I know game wouldnt finish in 3 hours or less in game.
Some of you said "calling someone lame when you are doing same build", just proves how much that person doesnt anything about starcraft. I started with normal mmm/tank/medivac play, I tried to push in on several places, I droped in his base but I cant break 1000 turrets and 100 tanks without losing game by eventually not having minerals to reproduce. If you are dealing full mech for example you cant make marines (I think thats obvious) you need to make tanks and marauders, if he makes ravens with upgrades and vikings I cant make helions, I have to make same - sounds logical enough? Think about it.
Some people said I was BM when I paused game, I was talking to admins during that time and then people said I was BM for leaving and asking regame, I didnt quit and ask for regame, admins told me to leave it.
For people who said "i'll never watch Craftcup again", thats just wrong. Just because 2 players had an argument and because of 2 players turning the tournament the way it was doesnt mean that every next or previous tournament was and will be like that. Craftcup will still be great.
Opinions about admin decision making is different, some may think they did good or that they did bad thing. I dont mind admins DQ'ing me from event because I was BM after all and he did deserve it after whispering me and was BM while doing it even tho no one saw it Only thing I dont like about craftcup admins after this - 2 weeks ago one player was very BM to me, in game and in whisper, I contacted admin about it and I got "ok" answer and I didnt get any other reply nor' anything was done about it and now I get DQ'd for same thing that was done to me 2 weeks ago.
Craftcup admins are still one of best out there, Craftcup as tournament is great as well, in my last interview I did say that my favourite tournament is Craftcup because of admins, casters and how tournament was made overall, sure they maybe made mistake but they are human after all. I got dissapointed by all admins of Craftcup with their decision about DQing me for being BM (not because it wasnt right decision but because nothing was done 2 weeks before it).
After all this im pretty happy, I know Gomas he is very nice guy, he deserved to win and im not butthurt for not winning Craftcup. Some people might like me some dont, but remember its all a game and not life or death situation and you werent part of it, you are just watching - take it easy.
I really wish Craftcup all best, because they are one of the best
Are you really making excuse for being outplayed both games? You obviously were mad (lol) as you BM'd me for like 45 min of game 2, and game1 you would not leave the game for like 5 min after u lost it.
And in game 2 we were at the point where my army composition was vastly better than what you had. More ravens, 2 ghosts, more tanks, more thors, more vikings even.
Once I finally pushed up to the gold spot on your side, since you refused to attack me (ironic, since i'm the turtle), it would have been to the point where finally I could just 1a or you'd be forced to as it's where your production is and no amount of money in the bank matters when you have no buildlings left.
You did cry. You did whine. You did BM. How else would one look at that lol..? And yes, you were msging admins, as you were slowly but surely losing the game. The only reason you would pause at that point + bm me is out of frustration + to try to get a re-game so you could get out of the losing situation you were in.
If I'd not had any self-respect and re-gamed after beating you again, what if the hypothetical re-game went another hour, as it likely would have with me winning? It's obvious you did msg the admins with the intention of getting out of your sticky situation.
You were outplayed, everyone watchin the stream saw that *honor/manner up yo*
That isn't the point here. I thought all featured tournaments on TL.net were meant to be professionally run. I guess you're saying I'm wrong about that?
relative to the other streams our events are run professionally. relative to an event like the Super Bowl we are not as good.
you are taking this issue too seriously... CCup has made 60 events in 6 months. judgement errors will occur with this large number of events...
at this point i am still gathering info to determine if it was a bad decision or not. at the time i thought it was correct.. .but i was in the middle of doing 20 things at once.
and with that said... there are 2 events per week... any player can always just join the next FREE event a few days later and try to win the Cup... very very few top players are involved.. its essentially a for fun event.
on the tuesday event half the challenge is checking in on time.. slow check ins eliminated hundreds every tuesday
Why would Avilo ever even consider wanting to play another Craftcup after being treated like this? Do you realise how much you casters were insulting him? At one point one caster even compared him to a handicapped person who was on a youtube video they were overlaying onto the stream.
I'm not talking about other streams, I'm talking about actual tournaments. I have never seen anything like this in any other featured tournament here and that's what I have the issue with.
i assure you WE at IMBAtv did no such thing! - we might have made some comments about why he wouldnt accept the regame and such, but we did NOT compare him to a handicapped person or in any other way insult him - this must have been another stream
That isn't the point here. I thought all featured tournaments on TL.net were meant to be professionally run. I guess you're saying I'm wrong about that?
relative to the other streams our events are run professionally. relative to an event like the Super Bowl we are not as good.
you are taking this issue too seriously... CCup has made 60 events in 6 months. judgement errors will occur with this large number of events...
at this point i am still gathering info to determine if it was a bad decision or not. at the time i thought it was correct.. .but i was in the middle of doing 20 things at once.
and with that said... there are 2 events per week... any player can always just join the next FREE event a few days later and try to win the Cup... very very few top players are involved.. its essentially a for fun event.
on the tuesday event half the challenge is checking in on time.. slow check ins eliminated hundreds every tuesday
Why would Avilo ever even consider wanting to play another Craftcup after being treated like this? Do you realise how much you casters were insulting him? At one point one caster even compared him to a handicapped person who was on a youtube video they were overlaying onto the stream.
I'm not talking about other streams, I'm talking about actual tournaments. I have never seen anything like this in any other featured tournament here and that's what I have the issue with.
i assure you WE at IMBAtv did no such thing! - we might have made some comments about why he wouldnt accept the regame and such, but we did NOT compare him to a handicapped person or in any other way insult him - this must have been another stream
A video was shown on stream with a man staggering around bending backwards in public places. Whether this person (in the video) was in fact handicapped or just acting it I don't know since I cannot re-find the youtube video and it was muted on stream. However, the man in the video was compared to Avilo. This is fact.
A man who was portraying someone handicapped was called Avilo by one of the casters on your stream, that is fact. Just covering it up doesn't mean it didn't happen.
On February 10 2011 11:04 UnholyRai wrote: A man who was portraying someone handicapped was called Avilo by one of the casters on your stream, that is fact. Just covering it up doesn't mean it didn't happen.
i will have to review the vod's to see if its true or not
On February 10 2011 10:50 Smurphy wrote: Also, why would a player want to compete in a tournament where rules are made up mid-game and enforced without warning?
ok then, let's continue along this line of reasoning. The CraftCup is not worthy of any player joining because it is extremely poorly run.
Here are some players who've enjoyed the past few events.
On February 10 2011 11:04 UnholyRai wrote: A man who was portraying someone handicapped was called Avilo by one of the casters on your stream, that is fact. Just covering it up doesn't mean it didn't happen.
there are so many incorrect comments in here i'll take them on one by one.
the guy is not handicapped. it was a comedy video about back pain.
further, i was talking to silverfire showing in a different window showing him where avilo was on the map...
keep in mind that what i see on my stream lags against what is on screen for the viewers. i was not hosting the youtube.com video being displayed.
This was shown on the stream and the sound was muted. Caster(s?) then proceeded to say things such as "Im Avilo" and more as the man in the video staggered around.
On February 10 2011 11:04 UnholyRai wrote: A man who was portraying someone handicapped was called Avilo by one of the casters on your stream, that is fact. Just covering it up doesn't mean it didn't happen.
the guy is not handicapped.
Hence why I said a man portraying someone handicapped.
It makes little difference in the end, it is still massively degrading avilo.
SO WTF - ii just spent the one hour and 30 minutes to write down my statement - as i was one of the casters in the game - but i accidentally closed the tab on my firefox - so everything is gone - its 3 am already here so i will - once again - prepare a statement, tomorow until then -
heres the replay and the VOD
replay:
vod: http://www.sc-streams.com/vod/1275 and yes, nobody was forcing me to post the VOD i have nothign to hide , most of the feedback i got was , people telling me this cast was hilarous - but like always the FEW people with most extreme opinions are often the loudest to cry (i am not obejctive - i know that - the reason why my website is called fuckyeah.tv is NOT becasue i take everything soo serious in life :| - just think about it before people start bitching around "THIS SPECIEL ENDREY SHOULD get banned etc.- you rarely see drunken casters - diversifaction 4tw)
and yeah i was drunk like shit i told this to ervybody multiple times on the stream but more information why i did what, whats my opinion on the decisions, craftcup in general and much more will be posted later -
good night
p.s. everybody should just calm down this is not the gsl/iem/mlg/dh/whatever
On February 10 2011 10:50 Smurphy wrote: Also, why would a player want to compete in a tournament where rules are made up mid-game and enforced without warning?
ok then, let's continue along this line of reasoning. The CraftCup is not worthy of any player joining because it is extremely poorly run.
Here are some players who've enjoyed the past few events.
This was shown on the stream and the sound was muted. Caster(s?) then proceeded to say things such as "Im Avilo" and more as the man in the video staggered around.
by this point.. the admins had declared the game over. between games we play comedy vids.
there were like 5 convos going on at once.
if want to look to "feel insulted" by something you sure can find a way to "feel insulted" though.
On February 10 2011 11:04 UnholyRai wrote: A man who was portraying someone handicapped was called Avilo by one of the casters on your stream, that is fact. Just covering it up doesn't mean it didn't happen.
further, i was talking to silverfire showing in a different window showing him where avilo was on the map...
Wow, you simply cannot just start telling outright lies. Do you think we have the intellects of two year olds? I think you've insulted Avilo enough already, you don't need to start insulting the intelligence of the viewers now as well. Something along the lines of "This is Avilo shopping" was said while the portrayed handicapped man was walking through a supermarket.
Please DO NOT EVER try and pass that off as you showing silverfire avilos positioning on a map at the same time as a giant coincidence.
I'm insulted and frankly you just lost all credibility.
Jim did send a video over it was this one ... And yes prolly a bad call for me to allow it to be played. that is why i stopped it. This guy is not mentally handicapped or anything of that nature. He is just a comedy skit actor and that is just a character he plays on his internet tv show. And heres the transcript from the vod when the video was played:
JimRaynor: "This is a very painful process and to match that pain i want to introduce this video here"
mcDuffs "im just going to play music to see what happens"
JimRaynor: "posted something in the skype, that you can play" "and avilo is refusing to play? ok great at least we can move on. Nothing like a good old fashioned disqualification."
"avilo has been banned from other websites that i know of. and he turns it into a giant drama that you would not believe. he made like 50 accounts and spammed msgs"
mcDuffs "oh so thats whats going on in the chat"
JimRaynor: "oh we got avilo on camera here" (@ 1:00 in that youtube video "This is avilo going shopping" video - "my back went out a copule weeks ago blah blah" "Ohh looks like hes about to fall over here"
mcDuffs "Its a very hard call on what just happend here at the cc. jim im just going to put on music"
So you can read that it really wasnt as bad as your making it. Now keep in mind this video is about a guy who hurt his back. Theres nothing in teh video that states that this guy is mentally handicapped.
And i literally just watched the vod... It will be live soon..
Mcduff - You could not hear the video at all when it as playing on stream. All you heard was Jim and saw the video (but could not hear the video). So it doesn't look good or professional.
On February 10 2011 10:50 Smurphy wrote: Also, why would a player want to compete in a tournament where rules are made up mid-game and enforced without warning?
And, why would you judge an entire tournament based on one overblown event? It is insane how fast people are willing to judge others based on something like this.
I have been following the Craftcup (U.S. craftcup but same difference, same ppl running it) for an extremely long time now and I have to say they have one of the best bracket systems, best website interface for both participants and streamers and most consistent/smoothly run tournaments today. However does anyone make mention of those points? No. However when a tournament admin is forced to make a controversial decision like this, the entire integrity of the tournament goes down the drain for you?
On February 10 2011 10:50 Smurphy wrote: Also, why would a player want to compete in a tournament where rules are made up mid-game and enforced without warning?
Along the same reasoning, why would you judge an entire tournament based on one thing? It is insane how fast people are willing to judge others based on something like this.
I have been following the Craftcup (U.S. craftcup but same difference, same ppl running it) for an extremely long time now and I have to say they have one of the best bracket systems, best website interface for both participants and streamers and most consistent/smoothly run tournaments today. However does anyone make mention of those points? No. However when a tournament admin is forced to make a controversial decision like this, the entire integrity of the tournament goes down the drain for you?
The entire integrity of a tournament goes down the drain when a single player in a losing position manufactures a free pass to the final through whining constantly to admins. Even if Avilo had agreed to re-game they said he couldn't play terran. Integrity of tournament = gone. That is what happened. Everyone who watched the stream saw it in-front of their eyes.
On February 10 2011 11:30 UnholyRai wrote: The entire integrity of a tournament goes down the drain when a single player in a losing position manufactures a free pass to the final through whining constantly to admins. Even if Avilo had agreed to re-game they said he couldn't play terran. Integrity of tournament = gone. That is what happened. Everyone who watched the stream saw it in-front of their eyes.
the not playing Terran was a joke.
actually, BeastyQT was disqualified for BM before the finals. no free pass to the finals.
Avilo was DQ-ed for not agreeing with the declaration of stalemate.
Yes of course it was a joke. And yes it was only a comedian portraying a handicapped person so it's alright to compare Avilo to him.
You can pass off everything as a joke or a huge coincidence or whatever you want to but myself, and many others will prefer to judge things based on what actually happened.
I don't need to check out the vods, I heard it perfectly fine the first time. Quite frankly I couldn't care less about you or the other commentators, that comment about the rudeness towards Avilo was only in response to your post about Avilo re entering another craft cup.
My only real concern here is the running of the tournament and the unfair disqualification.
It's a pity the game was stopped. I enjoyed watching it. Not for the action going on but for the psychology.
How a person could turtle so hard so as to force the opponent to become so frustrated and resort to BM. I was laughing aloud after every BM. Avilo clearly won game 2 on the psychology front.
On February 10 2011 11:19 BloodNinja wrote: Mcduff - You could not hear the video at all when it as playing on stream. All you heard was Jim and saw the video (but could not hear the video). So it doesn't look good or professional.
as someone who watched the craftcup and IMBAtv i was able to hear the man say he hurt his back in the video and even tho jim said that avilo was that guy i didnt find offensive and never in my mind did i think that man was handicap I think you need to check your facts before you start spreading rumors about what ppl say especially when what they said was recorded
On February 10 2011 11:30 UnholyRai wrote: The entire integrity of a tournament goes down the drain when a single player in a losing position manufactures a free pass to the final through whining constantly to admins. Even if Avilo had agreed to re-game they said he couldn't play terran. Integrity of tournament = gone. That is what happened. Everyone who watched the stream saw it in-front of their eyes.
Have you even thought about why the decision was made, the factors behind it? Can you not see the position the admins were in?
I'm not saying i agree with it, or that I like the decision that was made, in fact I don't agree whatsoever with the call. However I am not going around assuming and spouting off that because of a decision I don't see eye to eye with, that somehow the admins are completely corrupt and that "all u gotta do is bitch to the admins to get that win". seriously just take a few seconds to think about it before you write.
I am not sure why you keep saying he was "Handicapped" thats just kinda bm on ur way of thinking of ppl.
And we will be having avilo on the air to talk about this stuff on friday's craftcup coverage... The dq was upsetting indeed. I did want to see him get to the finals. And i hope we see more of him on another cast because i would like to see him play more and more.
On February 10 2011 11:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote: actually he was portraying someone with "back pain" but no handicap. you have a lot of basic facts incorrect
All the viewers see is a person walking around in a handicapped manner, and you stating that it's Avilo shopping.
You can continue and try and cover it up in a million different ways it's getting quite amusing now actually. I know you're in a difficult situation and you have no choice but to try and defend yourself, but when someone lies to me I take it quite personally and that's why I won't drop the point.
On February 10 2011 11:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote: actually he was portraying someone with "back pain" but no handicap. you have a lot of basic facts incorrect
All the viewers see is a person walking around in a handicapped manner, and you stating that it's Avilo shopping.
You can continue and try and cover it up in a million different ways it's getting quite amusing now actually. I know you're in a difficult situation and you have no choice but to try and defend yourself, but when someone lies to me I take it quite personally and that's why I won't drop the point.
Our regular viewers has seen the video before, and find it amusing (which is why it was requested through our chat) - and we do NOT fullscreen our video's so people can clearly see the title of the youtube video's.. and this clearly states "Back Pain Wayne"
On February 10 2011 11:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote: actually he was portraying someone with "back pain" but no handicap. you have a lot of basic facts incorrect
All the viewers see is a person walking around in a handicapped manner, and you stating that it's Avilo shopping.
You can continue and try and cover it up in a million different ways it's getting quite amusing now actually. I know you're in a difficult situation and you have no choice but to try and defend yourself, but when someone lies to me I take it quite personally and that's why I won't drop the point.
On February 10 2011 11:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote: actually he was portraying someone with "back pain" but no handicap. you have a lot of basic facts incorrect
All the viewers see is a person walking around in a handicapped manner, and you stating that it's Avilo shopping.
You can continue and try and cover it up in a million different ways it's getting quite amusing now actually. I know you're in a difficult situation and you have no choice but to try and defend yourself, but when someone lies to me I take it quite personally and that's why I won't drop the point.
what i saw (a veiwer) was a guy who hurt his back and was walking around places.. you are taking this waaay to seriously you see in the vod that it says back pain wayne.. i think you and your friend need hooked on phonics
On February 10 2011 11:30 UnholyRai wrote: The entire integrity of a tournament goes down the drain when a single player in a losing position manufactures a free pass to the final through whining constantly to admins. Even if Avilo had agreed to re-game they said he couldn't play terran. Integrity of tournament = gone. That is what happened. Everyone who watched the stream saw it in-front of their eyes.
Have you even thought about why the decision was made, the factors behind it? Can you not see the position the admins were in?
I'm not saying i agree with it, or that I like the decision that was made, in fact I don't agree whatsoever with the call. However I am not going around assuming and spouting off that because of a decision I don't see eye to eye with, that somehow the admins are completely corrupt and that "all u gotta do is bitch to the admins to get that win". seriously just take a few seconds to think about it before you write.
You have to weigh up every factor and come to your own conclusion. When I see someone pausing a game to whine at admins and then the game being called a draw soon after when the other non whining player is in a clearly winning position, there's frankly only one conclusion I can come to. There's absolutely zero chance of that game being called a draw there if beastyqt had had zero contact with the admins. I know it, you know it, everyone knows it. People can try to say it isn't so all they like but we all watched it unfurl infront of our very eyes.
I see a lot of people on this thread agree with me, and i also noticed some people have specifically registered just to put their point across on this, so it's obviously something people feel strongly about.
also, keep in mind Avilo DC-ed in a game against NeverForget earlier in the event. a judgement call was required and a re-game was issued. Avilo could've been DQ-ed at this point...long before this series with BeastyQT began.
On February 10 2011 12:00 UnholyRai wrote: When I see someone pausing a game to whine at admins and then the game being called a draw soon after when the other non whining player is in a clearly winning position
That wasnt Beasty whining -that was beasty being PM'd by the craftcup admins on IRC because he was set to Busy ingame so they had to get in contact with him somehow
On February 10 2011 10:50 Smurphy wrote: Also, why would a player want to compete in a tournament where rules are made up mid-game and enforced without warning?
And, why would you judge an entire tournament based on one overblown event? It is insane how fast people are willing to judge others based on something like this.
I have been following the Craftcup (U.S. craftcup but same difference, same ppl running it) for an extremely long time now and I have to say they have one of the best bracket systems, best website interface for both participants and streamers and most consistent/smoothly run tournaments today. However does anyone make mention of those points? No. However when a tournament admin is forced to make a controversial decision like this, the entire integrity of the tournament goes down the drain for you?
I can judge an entire series tournament based on this one event because the occurrence was so outrageous. The rules of Starcraft were changed mid-game. The rules of Starcraft were changed for no logical reason. The reasoning behind the changes was ludicrous.
I understand that time is an issue and that a tournament needs to be completed in a reasonable time-frame. Evidently, rules are in place in the CraftCup for matches being delayed by players not showing up on time. This game did not have issues of players not being available and was outside the scope of such rules.
I cannot respect the logic of declaring game 2 between avilo and beasty a re-game because of time constraints. If time is the issue then declaring a winner in a timely manner is the goal. If you want to declare a winner in a timely manner then choose the winner of the first game: avilo. These two players have played a game. One player was the victor in the first game. If the second game is declared a stalemate (which it was not a stalemate, I don't know who would have won, but I understand time constraints) then declare it so, declare the series 1-0-1 and advance avilo.
Also, the re-game was going to be played in a form where neither player was allowed to be Terran. What is the point of that? If you are going to be forcing players to choose or not choose a specific race this needs to be outlined in the rules beforehand.
After review here is how **I** personally would handle the situation. I understand that I have the benefit of being able to look back on the scenario and the judges did not. However, while watching the game live at no point in time did I think "it would be a good idea to have these players start over... and as off-races". Neither the starting over nor off-racing is a good idea.
First, I would determine the necessities of time. How long do we have to complete the finals? Is it possible to delay the finals? If it is not possible to complete this tournament another day I would work to end the game and determine a result as quickly as possible.
If there was some time to spare I would give the players a warning: "You have xxx time to complete the series or the game being played will be declared a draw." I would also explain that in the case of a tie I would flip a coin to advance a player. I would admit that flipping a coin sucks but I would explain that someone needs to advance and someone needs to advance within this period of time. I would explain since determining who should advance can not be done via Starcraft that I would be using as fair and unbiased of a method as possible. The coin flip has precedence and many sports use a coin-flip when no other method is available and all other tie-breakers have been utilized.
The key to the rulings is to think of what a ruling means for future scenarios and rulings. The nerdy term is "precedence". What precedence does this ruling set?
What precedence does forcing a re-game create? What precedence does declaring a stalemate arbitrarily create? Re-games and stalemates exist when both players are unable to change the game state or unwilling to change the game state. Such a scenario exists when both players have a Supply Depot left and no troops. In that scenario, neither player can change the game state. Another example is when one player has a Supply Depot and a Marine and the other has a floating building that the marine cannot shoot. One player is unable to change the game state and the other is unwilling. The situation in beasty verse avilo game 2 was not such a scenario. Both players were able and willing to change the game state. The state of the game was simply being changed very slowly. "Because I feel like it" is not a valid reason for a re-game.
What precedence does forcing off-racing create? That creates a terrible precedence. How would players know when they are or are not going to be forced to play different races?
What precedence does declaring the match a draw due to time constraints create? This creates an acceptable precedence. Players understand that someone has to win in an elimination tournament. Ensure beforehand that players are aware of the time constraints. Including penalties for stalling is acceptable too. Stalling is possible in Starcraft. A player could refuse to surrender a game and drag it out and try to bank on the results of the first game. But this "stalling" needs to be clear. One player needs to be in a distinct and clear advantage to be declared the winner. Playing defensively is an acceptable strategy.
On February 10 2011 11:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote: actually he was portraying someone with "back pain" but no handicap. you have a lot of basic facts incorrect
All the viewers see is a person walking around in a handicapped manner, and you stating that it's Avilo shopping.
You can continue and try and cover it up in a million different ways it's getting quite amusing now actually. I know you're in a difficult situation and you have no choice but to try and defend yourself, but when someone lies to me I take it quite personally and that's why I won't drop the point.
If thats ripping into.. then you have been living a very protected life so far - saying "oh here's avilo on cam - seems like hes gonna fall over" i can see thats SOOO harsh!
On February 10 2011 10:50 Smurphy wrote: Also, why would a player want to compete in a tournament where rules are made up mid-game and enforced without warning?
And, why would you judge an entire tournament based on one overblown event? It is insane how fast people are willing to judge others based on something like this.
I have been following the Craftcup (U.S. craftcup but same difference, same ppl running it) for an extremely long time now and I have to say they have one of the best bracket systems, best website interface for both participants and streamers and most consistent/smoothly run tournaments today. However does anyone make mention of those points? No. However when a tournament admin is forced to make a controversial decision like this, the entire integrity of the tournament goes down the drain for you?
I can judge an entire series tournament based on this one event because the occurrence was so outrageous. The rules of Starcraft were changed mid-game. The rules of Starcraft were changed for no logical reason. The reasoning behind the changes was ludicrous.
I understand that time is an issue and that a tournament needs to be completed in a reasonable time-frame. Evidently, rules are in place in the CraftCup for matches being delayed by players not showing up on time. This game did not have issues of players not being available and was outside the scope of such rules.
I cannot respect the logic of declaring game 2 between avilo and beasty a re-game because of time constraints. If time is the issue then declaring a winner in a timely manner is the goal. If you want to declare a winner in a timely manner then choose the winner of the first game: avilo. These two players have played a game. One player was the victor in the first game. If the second game is declared a stalemate (which it was not a stalemate, I don't know who would have won, but I understand time constraints) then declare it so, declare the series 1-0-1 and advance avilo.
Also, the re-game was going to be played in a form where neither player was allowed to be Terran. What is the point of that? If you are going to be forcing players to choose or not choose a specific race this needs to be outlined in the rules beforehand.
After review here is how **I** personally would handle the situation. I understand that I have the benefit of being able to look back on the scenario and the judges did not. However, while watching the game live at no point in time did I think "it would be a good idea to have these players start over... and as off-races". Neither the starting over nor off-racing is a good idea.
First, I would determine the necessities of time. How long do we have to complete the finals? Is it possible to delay the finals? If it is not possible to complete this tournament another day I would work to end the game and determine a result as quickly as possible.
If there was some time to spare I would give the players a warning: "You have xxx time to complete the series or the game being played will be declared a draw." I would also explain that in the case of a tie I would flip a coin to advance a player. I would admit that flipping a coin sucks but I would explain that someone needs to advance and someone needs to advance within this period of time. I would explain since determining who should advance can not be done via Starcraft that I would be using as fair and unbiased of a method as possible. The coin flip has precedence and many sports use a coin-flip when no other method is available and all other tie-breakers have been utilized.
The key to the rulings is to think of what a ruling means for future scenarios and rulings. The nerdy term is "precedence". What precedence does this ruling set?
What precedence does forcing a re-game create? What precedence does declaring a stalemate arbitrarily create? Re-games and stalemates exist when both players are unable to change the game state or unwilling to change the game state. Such a scenario exists when both players have a Supply Depot left and no troops. In that scenario, neither player can change the game state. Another example is when one player has a Supply Depot and a Marine and the other has a floating building that the marine cannot shoot. One player is unable to change the game state and the other is unwilling. The situation in beasty verse avilo game 2 was not such a scenario. Both players were able and willing to change the game state. The state of the game was simply being changed very slowly. "Because I feel like it" is not a valid reason for a re-game.
What precedence does forcing off-racing create? That creates a terrible precedence. How would players know when they are or are not going to be forced to play different races?
What precedence does declaring the match a draw due to time constraints create? This creates an acceptable precedence. Players understand that someone has to win in an elimination tournament. Ensure beforehand that players are aware of the time constraints. Including penalties for stalling is acceptable too. Stalling is possible in Starcraft. A player could refuse to surrender a game and drag it out and try to bank on the results of the first game. But this "stalling" needs to be clear. One player needs to be in a distinct and clear advantage to be declared the winner. Playing defensively is an acceptable strategy.
On February 10 2011 12:10 Torai wrote: If thats ripping into.. then you have been living a very protected life so far - saying "oh here's avilo on cam - seems like hes gonna fall over" i can see thats SOOO harsh!
edit: Typo
It's extremely insulting in the situation it was used in and completely unprofessional.
On February 10 2011 12:10 Torai wrote:oh here's avilo on cam - seems like hes gonna fall over
i read that a loud in the chat room comments it was not my comment unfortuantely, we'll have to MOD our chat rooms more carefully...which sucks. and if you watch the VOD you'll see we decided to pull the chat room comments OUT of the stream view in the top right hand corner because of it.
you'll also notice we interiviewed the other finalist, Gomas, and he stated Avilo probably should have won the Best-of-3 series with Avilo.
therefore, we absolutely did welcome contrasting opinions.
and most viewers should put more weight on Gomas' opinion of a game then mine. i can barely make Diamond... Gomas is a far far better player.
On February 10 2011 12:10 Torai wrote:oh here's avilo on cam - seems like hes gonna fall over
i read that a loud in the chat room comments it was not my comment
Come on man. We know you don't like Avilo. You made it a point to twice talk about how supposedly BM he is. At this point just admit you made a lapse in judgment with your comments during the match and lets move on.
Also my feelings regarding the whole re-game were said much better than I could by smurphy a few posts back but I am not gonna quote that whole block as a courtesy.
On February 10 2011 10:50 Smurphy wrote: Also, why would a player want to compete in a tournament where rules are made up mid-game and enforced without warning?
And, why would you judge an entire tournament based on one overblown event? It is insane how fast people are willing to judge others based on something like this.
I have been following the Craftcup (U.S. craftcup but same difference, same ppl running it) for an extremely long time now and I have to say they have one of the best bracket systems, best website interface for both participants and streamers and most consistent/smoothly run tournaments today. However does anyone make mention of those points? No. However when a tournament admin is forced to make a controversial decision like this, the entire integrity of the tournament goes down the drain for you?
I can judge an entire series tournament based on this one event because the occurrence was so outrageous. The rules of Starcraft were changed mid-game. The rules of Starcraft were changed for no logical reason. The reasoning behind the changes was ludicrous.
How was the reasoning ludicrous? It was 1:00am, and the tournament had to potential to go through the night into the morning. The admins have jobs, its a weekday, you can not possibly believe that running SC2 tournaments is going to bring the paycheck every month. They had to find some way of finishing it. Also the other finalist was in the same position and would've had to wait whoever knows how long to play for $20. You are barely considering the main factor.
I partially agree with your points made about the decision itself and its repercussions. And ive said somewhere in this thread that I believe a reschedule of the finals would have done them much more good. However these kinds of decisions are bound to happen from time to time. Some are wrong, some are right, some are extremely controversial, but it does not, at least to me, jeopardize the entire tournament from week to week.
On a much larger scale I am reminded of the OSL finals i believe between Flash and Jaedong (forgot what year T.T fail SCBW fan) where in one of the games, a blackout occured, the game could've gone either way, and it couldve been argued that Jaedong did not have the advantage. However the game was given to Jaedong, which obviously caused immense controversy. But let me ask you now, does that jeopardize the integrity of all past and future OSLs? Definitely not for me despite the fact that I did not agree with the call.
On February 10 2011 12:02 JimmyJRaynor wrote: also, keep in mind Avilo DC-ed in a game against NeverForget earlier in the event. a judgement call was required and a re-game was issued. Avilo could've been DQ-ed at this point...long before this series with BeastyQT began.
d/c'ing from a match doesnt matter unless you have 0 workers and basically no army. other then that the game will be remade 100% of the time.
d/c'ing from a match doesnt matter unless you have 0 workers and basically no army. other then that the game will be remade 100% of the time. find another argument.
you really need to reference the CraftCup rules before making a comment like this. you're making comment with no references. http://www.bitsperbeat.com/sc2/rules/
"Disconnecting: Freewin/Walk-Over will be granted if a) the one who disced was behind, b) the player who did not disc actually wants a walk over. Otherwise rematch."
"was behind" is not the same as 0 workers OR "basically no army".
had CCup admins determined "in their judgement" avilo was merely "behind" he would have been DQ-ed at that point.
On February 10 2011 10:50 Smurphy wrote: Also, why would a player want to compete in a tournament where rules are made up mid-game and enforced without warning?
And, why would you judge an entire tournament based on one overblown event? It is insane how fast people are willing to judge others based on something like this.
I have been following the Craftcup (U.S. craftcup but same difference, same ppl running it) for an extremely long time now and I have to say they have one of the best bracket systems, best website interface for both participants and streamers and most consistent/smoothly run tournaments today. However does anyone make mention of those points? No. However when a tournament admin is forced to make a controversial decision like this, the entire integrity of the tournament goes down the drain for you?
I can judge an entire series tournament based on this one event because the occurrence was so outrageous. The rules of Starcraft were changed mid-game. The rules of Starcraft were changed for no logical reason. The reasoning behind the changes was ludicrous.
How was the reasoning ludicrous? It was 1:00am, and the tournament had to potential to go through the night into the morning. The admins have jobs, its a weekday, you can not possibly believe that running SC2 tournaments is going to bring the paycheck every month. They had to find some way of finishing it. Also the other finalist was in the same position and would've had to wait whoever knows how long to play for $20. You are barely considering the main factor.
I partially agree with your points made about the decision itself and its repercussions. And ive said somewhere in this thread that I believe a reschedule of the finals would have done them much more good. However these kinds of decisions are bound to happen from time to time. Some are wrong, some are right, some are extremely controversial, but it does not, at least to me, jeopardize the entire tournament from week to week.
On a much larger scale I am reminded of the OSL finals i believe between Flash and Jaedong (forgot what year T.T fail SCBW fan) where in one of the games, a blackout occured, the game could've gone either way, and it couldve been argued that Jaedong did not have the advantage. However the game was given to Jaedong, which obviously caused immense controversy. But let me ask you now, does that jeopardize the integrity of all past and future OSLs? Definitely not for me despite the fact that I did not agree with the call.
This has been discussed already, how does re gaming make sense when you're pushed for time? If anything that will massively increase the time of the tournament, unless of course they forced Avilo to play off-race, which they're actually claiming was a joke now even though the admin said it to Avilo in the transcript of the contact between them.
In my opinion the admins of this cup need to seriously up their game. No more fucking ridiculous decision making and fooling around (telling Avilo he has to off race) during a match. No more allowing a caster to cast drunk. You can continue to do all that by all means if you want to but first you should ask TL to unfeature you.
On February 10 2011 10:50 Smurphy wrote: Also, why would a player want to compete in a tournament where rules are made up mid-game and enforced without warning?
And, why would you judge an entire tournament based on one overblown event? It is insane how fast people are willing to judge others based on something like this.
I have been following the Craftcup (U.S. craftcup but same difference, same ppl running it) for an extremely long time now and I have to say they have one of the best bracket systems, best website interface for both participants and streamers and most consistent/smoothly run tournaments today. However does anyone make mention of those points? No. However when a tournament admin is forced to make a controversial decision like this, the entire integrity of the tournament goes down the drain for you?
I can judge an entire series tournament based on this one event because the occurrence was so outrageous. The rules of Starcraft were changed mid-game. The rules of Starcraft were changed for no logical reason. The reasoning behind the changes was ludicrous.
How was the reasoning ludicrous? It was 1:00am, and the tournament had to potential to go through the night into the morning. The admins have jobs, its a weekday, you can not possibly believe that running SC2 tournaments is going to bring the paycheck every month. They had to find some way of finishing it. Also the other finalist was in the same position and would've had to wait whoever knows how long to play for $20. You are barely considering the main factor.
This paragraph is precisely why I find the decision ludicrous. They had to find a way of finishing it. Their decision to finish it is to re-game. Their decision to come to a quick decision is to start over. That's ludicrous. As I explained, if time is the issue declare game 2 a stalemate and advance avilo.
d/c'ing from a match doesnt matter unless you have 0 workers and basically no army. other then that the game will be remade 100% of the time. find another argument.
you really need to reference the CraftCup rules before making a comment like this. you're making comment with no references. http://www.bitsperbeat.com/sc2/rules/
"Disconnecting: Freewin/Walk-Over will be granted if a) the one who disced was behind, b) the player who did not disc actually wants a walk over. Otherwise rematch."
"was behind" is not the same as 0 workers OR "basically no army".
had CCup admins determined "in their judgement" avilo was merely "behind" he would have been DQ-ed at that point.
I love how admins get to play god when there's no clear player in the lead.
but then again when players question this . all you guys ever say is. "we dont get paid for this, so you HAVE to respect what we say"
d/c'ing from a match doesnt matter unless you have 0 workers and basically no army. other then that the game will be remade 100% of the time. find another argument.
you really need to reference the CraftCup rules before making a comment like this. you're making comment with no references. http://www.bitsperbeat.com/sc2/rules/
"Disconnecting: Freewin/Walk-Over will be granted if a) the one who disced was behind, b) the player who did not disc actually wants a walk over. Otherwise rematch."
"was behind" is not the same as 0 workers OR "basically no army".
had CCup admins determined "in their judgement" avilo was merely "behind" he would have been DQ-ed at that point.
That's great dude, but what happened earlier on in a tournament has absolutely zero relevance to the event we're discussing. They're two separate events, and should be judged as such.
I’ll begin by saying that as I listened to the cast on Imbatv – 2nd game – I was appalled that supposedly “professional casters” would make fun of players.
I watched the Beasty v Avilo game closely. I also heard a caster say that prior to the match, Beasty said, “I never lose on Steppes of War.” He must have been totally irate to have lost that first game to Avilo. More than likely that’s why he was so BM toward him, which admin didn’t deem necessary to DQ Beasty at that point, or even give him a warning.
Yes, there are people making a big deal of this, yet according to Mr. Raynor, et al – a big deal over nothing. I, for one, know how devoted Avilo is to his game. (As are most hardcore SC players) I know the long, hard hours he puts in to play the best he can – and I might add under some grueling circumstances, which he never whines about. Yet he perseveres. For casters to make jokes like “I’m going to take a nap, wake me if this ever ends” is not only unprofessional, but just plain wrong.
The consensus of opinion, it seems to me, is that admin made a pretty bad call. Some argue that Gomas was waiting and the game was taking too long. Imo, the final game should have been postponed. I’m sure after the first 50 minute game both bad mannered Beasty and moving-too-slow Avilo were both drained as well.
Nevertheless, when admin bases their decision on someone “taking too long” and his opponent is whining, it puts me in absolute rage mode. The referees, admin, the casters of ImbaTV all conducted this particular game unprofessionally. And it might not be a big deal to some, but I’m sure it is to the players.
When Avilo told the admin that he was about to wrap it up, admin should have said, “Okay, you have 10/15/20 minutes to end this game.” That is how this should have been done, that is what would have been fair. A warning. Not “Either leave now or get DQd” Especially not an hour into the game.
And, Mr. Raynor, when players struggle and devote 8 to 10 hours a day practicing, it is a big deal to be DQd.
If devoted players continue to compete in CraftCup, then some new rules should be put in place, because nothing in the rules at the moment state “If player takes too long we have the right to discontinue the game.”
On February 10 2011 12:10 Torai wrote: If thats ripping into.. then you have been living a very protected life so far - saying "oh here's avilo on cam - seems like hes gonna fall over" i can see thats SOOO harsh!
edit: Typo
It's extremely insulting in the situation it was used in and completely unprofessional.
"in that situation" the previous video shows that same comedian... this is Nathan Barnatt...an icon in video gaming comedy sub-culture with this in mind i do not even know if the guy in the chat room should've been banned. sounds like someone is just looking be "feel insulted".
therefore, the guy in chat saying "avilo is going to fall over etc etc" may well have been complimenting him in the same way people call another guy "The_Pwnerer" as a reference to the Purepwnage series and it is a compliment to that player.
Gomas was this days CraftCup winner and he has won 2 CraftCup events. furthermore, we invited Gomas and he stated Avilo should've won that series with BeastyQT. He also stated he'd probably lose to Avilo.
Here is the guy being referred to as "Avilo"
would it have been insulting if we started calling Avilo "Teh_Pwnerer Jeremy" of the Pure Pwnage series?
lighten up dude.. its a small scale for-fun event.
looking back now .. i dont think we'd ban the guy in chat that said most of that stuff
On February 10 2011 12:48 UnholyRai wrote: Do you think Avilo "had fun" tonight? And yes, ok, i see, you were complimenting Avilo. Oh right, I get it now... yeah.... no. Look there's really no point you trying to defend this to me, I urge people to simply watch the vod and make their own minds up.
the cool thing about the VODs on SC-Streams.com is that no matter how large they are yuo have random access to any point in the VOD with relatively fast speed.
as i said, i was reading what was in the chat... and i did not host the youtube.com video.. i do not know what the guy in chat intended .. neither do you
if you want to go out of your way to feel insulted enjoy yourself.
yep, it'd be great for people to watch the VOD itself.
craft cup has been doing great tours for months now on both EU and US server. for anyone to say craft cup is a joke or is stupid because of one incident is totally wrong.
On February 10 2011 12:39 Arkansassy wrote: For casters to make jokes like “I’m going to take a nap, wake me if this ever ends” is not only unprofessional, but just plain wrong.
And yes it may have been unprofessional to bring that up in a match i do agree with you there. And I should have been more on top of it and not playing long with it. The thing was that it was an hour long game and after an hour of watching 2 players build it did get a little "dry". This caused me to start cracking the jokes... But I will make sure to stay more ontop of things if we get another game like this. We do want to bring you guys a fun and professional cast, today was just a crazy day as it got into the pregrids so we may have lost our selfs there. But It will happen and can happen to anyone.
On February 10 2011 10:40 Jakkerr wrote: Avilo’s playstyle was rlly cheap, there should be rules in SC Esports about playing too passive. Don’t get me wrong I don’t mean that you lose if you dont attack for a while, but playing a game where the only thing ur focused on is defending everything and have no intention of attacking ever you should get punished. He does it all the time on NA ladder too sadly enough. Beasty should have stayed cool and just let the admins decide tho.
So I can completely understand this decision from the admins
You people need to make up your mind. If Terran one bases it's cheap, if Terran gets multiple expos and goes for lategame it's cheap, man...
On February 10 2011 10:40 Jakkerr wrote: Avilo’s playstyle was rlly cheap, there should be rules in SC Esports about playing too passive. Don’t get me wrong I don’t mean that you lose if you dont attack for a while, but playing a game where the only thing ur focused on is defending everything and have no intention of attacking ever you should get punished. He does it all the time on NA ladder too sadly enough. Beasty should have stayed cool and just let the admins decide tho.
So I can completely understand this decision from the admins
You people need to make up your mind. If Terran one bases it's cheap, if Terran gets multiple expos and goes for lategame it's cheap, man...
On February 10 2011 13:01 LuckyFool wrote: craft cup has been doing great tours for months now on both EU and US server. for anyone to say craft cup is a joke or is stupid because of one incident is totally wrong.
yah...b4 more people jump on the ever so lovely hate bandwagons one way or another...even tho I was royally fucked this time, by dumb highly questionable admin decisions + casters that BM/insult me afterwards for no reason, I don't think people should hate craftcup or not play in it. It's a nice tourney that's weekly and free, which is good for everyone.
Till I just read the last page or so I didn't realize the casters were saying all that shit and insulting me by comparison to the person in the video. Pretty low but whatever. I don't think it's professional or nice...not to mention showing massively blatant favoritism towards certain players in the tournaments. That's just me.
As for beastyqt, didn't know who he was b4, and after this i easily have zero respect for him. Although, I am flattered that in our second game he decided to try and mimic my lategame style. I believe him to be my biggest fan.
your antics on certain other gaming sites are "comedic" so is Nathan Barnatt.
in late game 2 BeastyQT did start using Seeker Missiles in the exact way you used them in game 1. hard to say if he has every done that before... i've never seen him do this.. and i've covered many of his matches.
as far as casts "favouring" BeastyQT against you.. please note that we specifically got the CraftCup winner Gomas in an interview to ask him abuot this situation in order to get a balanced perspective...
he stated you should've been given the win against BeastyQT he stated you would have defeated him and won the CraftCup event.
this all occurred shortly after Gomas was declared the winner of CCLite #38 and its all on the recorded VOD... http://www.sc-streams.com/vod/1277
this was done to provide a balanced perspective on the events.
Gomas is a better player than any of us scrubs at Imbalanced.tv and therefore his opinions carry more weight.
On February 10 2011 10:50 Smurphy wrote: Also, why would a player want to compete in a tournament where rules are made up mid-game and enforced without warning?
And, why would you judge an entire tournament based on one overblown event? It is insane how fast people are willing to judge others based on something like this.
I have been following the Craftcup (U.S. craftcup but same difference, same ppl running it) for an extremely long time now and I have to say they have one of the best bracket systems, best website interface for both participants and streamers and most consistent/smoothly run tournaments today. However does anyone make mention of those points? No. However when a tournament admin is forced to make a controversial decision like this, the entire integrity of the tournament goes down the drain for you?
I can judge an entire series tournament based on this one event because the occurrence was so outrageous. The rules of Starcraft were changed mid-game. The rules of Starcraft were changed for no logical reason. The reasoning behind the changes was ludicrous.
How was the reasoning ludicrous? It was 1:00am, and the tournament had to potential to go through the night into the morning. The admins have jobs, its a weekday, you can not possibly believe that running SC2 tournaments is going to bring the paycheck every month. They had to find some way of finishing it. Also the other finalist was in the same position and would've had to wait whoever knows how long to play for $20. You are barely considering the main factor.
I partially agree with your points made about the decision itself and its repercussions. And ive said somewhere in this thread that I believe a reschedule of the finals would have done them much more good. However these kinds of decisions are bound to happen from time to time. Some are wrong, some are right, some are extremely controversial, but it does not, at least to me, jeopardize the entire tournament from week to week.
On a much larger scale I am reminded of the OSL finals i believe between Flash and Jaedong (forgot what year T.T fail SCBW fan) where in one of the games, a blackout occured, the game could've gone either way, and it couldve been argued that Jaedong did not have the advantage. However the game was given to Jaedong, which obviously caused immense controversy. But let me ask you now, does that jeopardize the integrity of all past and future OSLs? Definitely not for me despite the fact that I did not agree with the call.
This has been discussed already, how does re gaming make sense when you're pushed for time? If anything that will massively increase the time of the tournament, unless of course they forced Avilo to play off-race, which they're actually claiming was a joke now even though the admin said it to Avilo in the transcript of the contact between them.
In my opinion the admins of this cup need to seriously up their game. No more fucking ridiculous decision making and fooling around (telling Avilo he has to off race) during a match. No more allowing a caster to cast drunk. You can continue to do all that by all means if you want to but first you should ask TL to unfeature you.
Okay gonna chime in here, you all seem to be missing an important point. Yeah they could have called game two a draw and given the win to Avilo because of game one. Problem with this is that it creates a situation where any Terran could superturtle and aim for a draw whenever they are up 1-0 in a series, that would have been an absolutely horrible decision in my opinion that could seriously hurt a tournament on the larger scale.
It is a really hard situation for the admins, on one hand they can not let the game play out, they do have time limits that must be followed, this is true for almost all live tournaments so nothing to cry about there. Simply the nature of most live tournaments.
They can not call a draw and give the series to Avilo because that creates a situation where Terran players can superturtle and aim for draws whenever they are up 1-0. That would hurt both the fairness and entertainement value of the tournament.
They can not give the win to one player because it is to close to call, one had army advantage and other eco advatange.
Regame sounds like the best choice to me...? If you want to avoid a long macro game just change the map to Steps of War or something.
On February 10 2011 10:50 Smurphy wrote: Also, why would a player want to compete in a tournament where rules are made up mid-game and enforced without warning?
And, why would you judge an entire tournament based on one overblown event? It is insane how fast people are willing to judge others based on something like this.
I have been following the Craftcup (U.S. craftcup but same difference, same ppl running it) for an extremely long time now and I have to say they have one of the best bracket systems, best website interface for both participants and streamers and most consistent/smoothly run tournaments today. However does anyone make mention of those points? No. However when a tournament admin is forced to make a controversial decision like this, the entire integrity of the tournament goes down the drain for you?
I can judge an entire series tournament based on this one event because the occurrence was so outrageous. The rules of Starcraft were changed mid-game. The rules of Starcraft were changed for no logical reason. The reasoning behind the changes was ludicrous.
How was the reasoning ludicrous? It was 1:00am, and the tournament had to potential to go through the night into the morning. The admins have jobs, its a weekday, you can not possibly believe that running SC2 tournaments is going to bring the paycheck every month. They had to find some way of finishing it. Also the other finalist was in the same position and would've had to wait whoever knows how long to play for $20. You are barely considering the main factor.
I partially agree with your points made about the decision itself and its repercussions. And ive said somewhere in this thread that I believe a reschedule of the finals would have done them much more good. However these kinds of decisions are bound to happen from time to time. Some are wrong, some are right, some are extremely controversial, but it does not, at least to me, jeopardize the entire tournament from week to week.
On a much larger scale I am reminded of the OSL finals i believe between Flash and Jaedong (forgot what year T.T fail SCBW fan) where in one of the games, a blackout occured, the game could've gone either way, and it couldve been argued that Jaedong did not have the advantage. However the game was given to Jaedong, which obviously caused immense controversy. But let me ask you now, does that jeopardize the integrity of all past and future OSLs? Definitely not for me despite the fact that I did not agree with the call.
This has been discussed already, how does re gaming make sense when you're pushed for time? If anything that will massively increase the time of the tournament, unless of course they forced Avilo to play off-race, which they're actually claiming was a joke now even though the admin said it to Avilo in the transcript of the contact between them.
In my opinion the admins of this cup need to seriously up their game. No more fucking ridiculous decision making and fooling around (telling Avilo he has to off race) during a match. No more allowing a caster to cast drunk. You can continue to do all that by all means if you want to but first you should ask TL to unfeature you.
Okay gonna chime in here, you all seem to be missing an important point. Yeah they could have called game two a draw and given the win to Avilo because of game one. Problem with this is that it creates a situation where any Terran could superturtle and aim for a draw whenever they are up 1-0 in a series, that would have been an absolutely horrible decision in my opinion that could seriously hurt a tournament on the larger scale.
It is a really hard situation for the admins, on one hand they can not let the game play out, they do have time limits that must be followed, this is true for almost all live tournaments so nothing to cry about there. Simply the nature of most live tournaments.
They can not call a draw and give the series to Avilo because that creates a situation where Terran players can superturtle and aim for draws whenever they are up 1-0. That would hurt both the fairness and entertainement value of the tournament.
They can not give the win to one player because it is to close to call, one had army advantage and other eco advatange.
Regame sounds like the best choice to me...? If you want to avoid a long macro game just change the map to Steps of War or something.
A regame accomplishes nothing. A regame does not help with time constraints nor does it help prevent Terrans from turtling in the manner you suggest.
A regame doesn't help with time constraints for extremely obvious reasons that have already been explained several times. A regame doesn't help with turtling because it is a viable strategy that can lead to victories. There's no reason avilo wouldn't simply use the same strategy again. Obviously avilo is very successful with the turtling strategy.
This whole discussion really reminds of one episode of "Weapons of Choice". There, Chill said, that many many people are just talking in abslutes "Bla happened - ergo its THIS 100% no other choice left"
and this is exactly what i read.
"bad decisions by admins - CRAFTCUP IS DEAD!" and more tlike that. This is just talking in abolsutes and this is ridiculous.
On February 10 2011 18:31 Smurphy wrote: I don't know the right answer, but re-game was "absolutely" not it.
It is easy to point at something and scream wrong when you have no better solution yourself...
Personally, i cant think of a better solution than regame, possbly coinflip like Dreamhack did but thinking about the shitstorm that created i am not sure.
If you want to prevent it from going into extremely long macro-game force a smaller map in my opinion. But that is just my opinion, admins wanted to force both players to off-race. Not sure i agree with it but that is one way...
The big problem i see here is lack of clear rules regarding the issue.
The decisions of the admins was unprofessional and there would have been better ways to solve this situation. However, everyone can have a bad day, and it really was late. Still that's no excuse of what happened.
Well, shit happened and cannot be undone. But what bothers me the most is the handling of the aftermath: Instead of admitting the failures which have been made the admins as well as the casters are constantly posting new excuses and officially declare that their decision is not out there for discussion. This is not only unprofessional, it's also immature and neither accepted in esports nor in real life. In such a case it is normally expected from the people that the persons in charge apologizes for their mistakes and try to work out a way so something like this never happens again. However, the admins seem to refuse any of this, essentially meaning for the players joining this tournament that they cannot expect fair judgement should they ever get as unlucky as to be in a similar situation.
As for the people claiming that you cannot judge the whole tournament by one bad decision is like saying you cannot judge a realationship just because one partner cheated on the other. It's not about how often it happens, it's that you cannot trust the admins anymore. This is even made worse by not admitting the failures and trying to cover things up.
I was shocked by the decision that was made and I got totally upset. There were so much better ways to handle the situation but unfortunately, a bad decision was made. Avilo deserved to win this cup. Although I didn't have anything to do with this decision, as a CraftCup staff, I personally apologize and I'm terribly sorry for what happened. Hopefully by adding some rules for situations like this, and by learning from our mistakes, we can improve the tournament experience for everyone.
On February 10 2011 20:06 Fireborn wrote: In such a case it is normally expected from the people that the persons in charge apologizes for their mistakes and try to work out a way so something like this never happens again. However, the admins seem to refuse any of this, essentially meaning for the players joining this tournament that they cannot expect fair judgement should they ever get as unlucky as to be in a similar situation.
Dude, its your personal opinion that their decision was a mistake. I myself think calling a regame was the right one, it should have just been done a little earlier. Obviously the admins thought it was the right decision too. So now you want them to apologize because you think it was wrong? Come on.
On February 10 2011 21:52 Keyamoon wrote: I was shocked by the decision that was made and I got totally upset. There were so much better ways to handle the situation but unfortunately, a bad decision was made. Avilo deserved to win this cup.
Eh, how on earth did Avilo deserve to win the cup? Even if the admins decision was totally wrong (which it wasnt in my opinion), how does that mean that somebody who is in the semis in a close game suddenly deserves to win the whole cup? This is getting getting more and more ridiculous.
Eh, how on earth did Avilo deserve to win the cup? Even if the admins decision was totally wrong (which it wasnt in my opinion), how does that mean that somebody who is in the semis in a close game suddenly deserves to win the whole cup? This is getting getting more and more ridiculous.
Hey calm down sir, that's just what I thought by watching the stream. that's just me!
On February 10 2011 22:08 Redox wrote:. I myself think calling a regame was the right one, it should have just been done a little earlier..
Well if you listen to what Maista says around minute 151 in our vod from yesterday he clearly says that Beasty had to pause because he was getting PM's on irc from Brotkohl - a CC admin - about the regame, the reason he got messaged on IRC about it was because both him and avilo was set to "busy" ingame so they couldnt see the admins messages
The facts are Avilo was in a winnable position by the time you clowns decided it should be a regame. Avilo stated to the admin that he was about to end the game, and yet he was not given a chance to.
It's about time the admins just accept they failed to run this event professionally.
On February 10 2011 20:06 Fireborn wrote: In such a case it is normally expected from the people that the persons in charge apologizes for their mistakes and try to work out a way so something like this never happens again. However, the admins seem to refuse any of this, essentially meaning for the players joining this tournament that they cannot expect fair judgement should they ever get as unlucky as to be in a similar situation.
Dude, its your personal opinion that their decision was a mistake. I myself think calling a regame was the right one, it should have just been done a little earlier. Obviously the admins thought it was the right decision too. So now you want them to apologize because you think it was wrong? Come on.
It's my personal opinion that you don't interrupt a game in that state, even more if one player says he's going to finish it. A time limit for that would have been acceptable. Yet, this can be seen from either point of view and wasn't the biggest mistake. As you can see in the chatlog, they then told him that they have to regame with offraces. It wasn't apparent that this was a joke and it still isn't, however as he asked why he would have to regame the admin didn't even care to explain but put pressure on him leading to the final DQ. This is under no circumstances acceptable, instead of clearing the situation the admins wanted to get it over with and obviously didn't care if he could have won the game, that he was in a 1-0 lead or that he wanted to finish the game. And on top of that, this whole situation was completely in favor of beasty and we don't know yet if he wasn't the one who actually conatcted the admins in the first place and talked them into it. Apart from that, he even got bashed constantly from casters and admins.
So while it is out for discussion if you abort such a game or not, by whatever standard you have, this is not a way to treat a player in a tournament.
haha, and you were thinking Goody's games are the worst!
went through the last 20-30 minutes, pretty funny stuff, hilarious beastyqt's BM.
and even though I love drama, I fail to see how should it be involved in this situation - decission was made by admins, player didn't accept it and thus got DQ'd as tournament rules say.
you can only discuss the decisssion itself which I personally agree with. The game wasn't going anywhere for long time, it was practically stalemate. Had the same happened in BW proleague/starleague, the game would have been called draw lot sooner. Plus this is so bad for everyone involved - organisers, casters, audience, players.
I just don't get one thing - why the hell aren't terran players in these positions making BCs+yamato? I didn't get it when it took Goody 1,5 hour to make BCs at IEM game and I didn't get it when neither beastyqt (who got 5-6 starports with techlab) nor avilo didn't make any in this game.
On February 10 2011 23:39 ondik wrote:you can only discuss the decisssion itself which I personally agree with. The game wasn't going anywhere for long time, it was practically stalemate. Had the same happened in BW proleague/starleague, the game would have been called draw lot sooner. Plus this is so bad for everyone involved - organisers, casters, audience, players.
I just don't get one thing - why the hell aren't terran players in these positions making BCs+yamato? I didn't get it when it took Goody 1,5 hour to make BCs at IEM game and I didn't get it when neither beastyqt (who got 5-6 starports with techlab) nor avilo didn't make any in this game.
Apparently beasty tried to assault avilo's turtling with BCs and Vikings in the first game and failed.
From the way game 2 progressed, it was rather obvious to me that both players were unable to cost-effectively attack into the other player's position. Army advantage on one side, economic advantage on the other side, I think it was a fair decision to rule this a draw. You say correctly that this would've been called a stalemate a lot earlier by professional organisers in BW.
However, the way this decision was handled was beyond poor, there's no way around that.
I personally think the 20 minute warning to allow avilo to back up his "I'm about to finish this up" comment would've been a much better solution to satisfy everyone involved (and prove that the game was indeed a stalemate because there's no way either one would've won this soon with the amount of minerals both had in the bank).
On February 10 2011 11:04 UnholyRai wrote: A man who was portraying someone handicapped was called Avilo by one of the casters on your stream, that is fact. Just covering it up doesn't mean it didn't happen.
the guy is not handicapped.
Hence why I said a man portraying someone handicapped.
It makes little difference in the end, it is still massively degrading avilo.
he is NOT PORTRAYING a handicapped man. As stated IN THE TITLE OF THE VIDEO... he is portraying a man suffering from back pain and even explains how he hurt himself jet skiing caused his back problems.
so with both VIDEO and AUDIO it is made 100% clear he is not handicapped.
you can view anything in any way you like.. Tasteless comments about the dead marines family can be seen as "insulting to korean veterans" if you really want to go out of your way to "feel insulted".
you can twist perception... reality won't budge.
if you watch the entire sequence it is clear that this "back pain wayne" is Nathan Barnett a comedian from the "talking classics" series on screw attack...because we showed Nathan Barnett's most famous "4 bright buttons" video FIRST...just prior to the "back pain" video.
and as i've stated before ... Avilo comedic antics on other forum boards where he has been 6 month banned before are comparable to Nathan Barnett's comedic antics....
a person in the chat room made these comments and i read them a loud on the air.
i'm not going to post other forum board events though... you can go there yourself...
Eh, how on earth did Avilo deserve to win the cup? Even if the admins decision was totally wrong (which it wasnt in my opinion), how does that mean that somebody who is in the semis in a close game suddenly deserves to win the whole cup? This is getting getting more and more ridiculous.
Hey calm down sir, that's just what I thought by watching the stream. that's just me!
as interviewed on Imbalanced.tv, GOMAS, the CraftCup winner on this day agrees with your assessment and believes Avilo would've defeated him in the finals.
we tried to get as many opinions as possible (in a limited time on air) on this multi-facted issue
we attempted to get Avilo on the air however, we use skype and he only had skype on a laptop.
we waited as long as we could.
Avilo was calm and polite the entire time and does not seem any where near as upset as some people in this thread... i mean.. i think he realizes at the end of the day that the CraftCup tournament run 4 times per week ... so he can play again in a day or two.
On February 10 2011 12:10 Torai wrote:oh here's avilo on cam - seems like hes gonna fall over
i read that a loud in the chat room comments it was not my comment
Come on man. We know you don't like Avilo. You made it a point to twice talk about how supposedly BM he is.
i stated facts that occurred during a 6 month ban on another web site. these are facts not my opinion. do not context drop.
Avilo seems fine to me... he invited me into games and
if you watch the VOD i state clearly twice as many TANKS, RAVENS , VIKINGS etc. while Beasty had what were in my judgement "69 marines taht at this game stage have no useful purpose"...
i also noted the BeastyQT began imitating Avilo Hunter/Seeker Missile late game start.
we invited him onto skype for an interview to discuss the entire event... he could not get his skype working... if i thought he took any of my chat room comment repeated words seriously why would i invite him for an interview to provide his view points.
again.. all of this ... my judgement of Avilo in "the lead" .. . my comments taht Avilo won game 1 are also on the VOD. . its all there man.. if you want to take 20 seconds from a one hour game and some how turn it into watergate .. .have fun
after viewing all this and considering the comments GOMAS made (a much much better judge of a TvT game than i am)
after carefully examining all the facts its my opinion that i agree with GOMAS, Avilo should've won this event.
there is no way you can be sure if Gomas or Avilo would have won if they both played yesterday. so saying that avilo should´ve won I disagree. Imho both had good chances to win this.
and about the avilo - beastyqt match as being a cc ref also. I think they reacted to quickly before looking thru all options they could have done. But I dont blame them for making that decission, they had to make one, that game would have continued for hours. Avilo should've accepted that and just replayed the game. army advantage vs gas advantage, it was about as even as it could get.
On February 11 2011 01:59 Farone wrote: there is no way you can be sure if Gomas or Avilo would have won if they both played yesterday. so saying that avilo should´ve won I disagree. Imho both had good chances to win this.
and about the avilo - beastyqt match as being a cc ref also. I think they reacted to quickly before looking thru all options they could have done. But I dont blame them for making that decission, they had to make one, that game would have continued for hours. Avilo should've accepted that and just replayed the game. army advantage vs gas advantage, it was about as even as it could get.
this is just what I PERSONALLY think about this.
lol @ jim trying to cover up how much of a-holes you guys were yesterday. You know you weren't comparing me to a comedian lofl. You could at least man up and just apologize instead of trying to bs your way out of that one.
And yeah...I didn't win...I'd still have to play gomas in the final...
And no, I was clearly going to win game 2. It makes absolutely no sense to do a re-game, because the re-game can take ANOTHER hour. How is that fair to the player that has worked for 1 hr to wittle down his opponent and finally kill him? All that does is make it so one player gets to re-roll their chance to win a game that they were losing.
And as for people that don't know about lategame TvT, the only thing that matters that late game in TvT is your unit composition. Your resources can matter some, but it's who kills more gas units, and who has the better army base, and who can kill the other person's army finally. Which I was about to do lofl. Oh well!
You'd be surprised how many long games I have in my replay folder that are exactly like this, where the game "seems close" yet there's no point where the opponent ever has a chance lol.
Anyways, if this were to happen in another tournament, you can't just re-game over and over...unless it really were a draw situation in which both players agreed neither could do anything.
Re-gaming just makes another game that would probably last the same amount of time total that the current game would last if it were allowed to be finished like it obviously should have been. *common sense* + basic math
I, as several others have stated, am certain the right decision would have been (after Avilo said I'm about ready to wrap this up) to give him whatever the admins deemed a feasible time allotment.
Even Gomas doesn't know that Avilo would have won CC; however, he wasn't even given the opportunity. That's what he wanted. Admins acted hastily, Imbatv casters were insulting. At least McDuffs admitted his error in judgment. Mr. Raynor, on the other hand, just keeps making excuses.
At this point, only a couple people associated with CraftCup and Imbatv have been man enough to step up to the plate and give Avilo what he does deserve and that's an apology.
On February 11 2011 02:24 Arkansassy wrote: I, as several others have stated, am certain the right decision would have been (after Avilo said I'm about ready to wrap this up) to give him whatever the admins deemed a feasible time allotment.
Even Gomas doesn't know that Avilo would have won CC; however, he wasn't even given the opportunity. That's what he wanted. Admins acted hastily, Imbatv casters were insulting. At least McDuffs admitted his error in judgment. Mr. Raynor, on the other hand, just keeps making excuses.
At this point, only a couple people associated with CraftCup and Imbatv have been man enough to step up to the plate and give Avilo what he does deserve and that's an apology.
both players were given a time limit in which they should have attacked and they both didnt
I watched the replay and I don't understand why the people are so mad about this. This was definitely a draw, neither player could win this if the other wouldn't attack.
Admins decided for a rematch and avilo didn't want to play, so Beasty got the win. Sounds perfectly fine to me.
On February 11 2011 02:38 dizzy101 wrote: Craftcup is still one of the best run tournament in the scene. How about this episode is forgotten about as soon as possible.
Sadly I believe this is something hard to forget at the moment, given how the agreviated person is insulting (with actual direct insult words) casters and dishing the organization of a most usually very well run tournament. If Avilo would not be flamming more and more this scandal would cool down easily, but he seems to not want to let it die.
On the other hand. How about a Goody vs Avilo Bo7 showmatch with the new GSL map pool. Anyone with the gus for that? xD
First of all about the second game: over an hour into the game avilo was slightly ahead imo. But it wasn't like he had a win in his pocket. Yes of course admins could give ultimatums to both players to finish the game, let's say in 30 or 40 min and then if nothing big happens just decide it's a stalemate, but I don't believe 30 min would have helped much. To decide a winner it would have needed to take another 2-3 hours. And regarding the fact the tournament can't last forever it was a good and best decision. Props to admins. Hard decision, maybe not the best theoretically, but best given the circumstances.
And about that man with a back pain or handicapped stuff - even if there were some comparisons it was a joke. Actually me myself sit in imbalanced.tv chat and the chat is hilarious - we joke about anybody and everything. Casters have a very good sense of humor. I have no doubt there were no tries to insult avilo. He's a very good player and has a very unique playing style. Maybe some like his playstyle, some dislike, but i really doubt somebody here think he's a retard or whatever.
On February 11 2011 01:59 Farone wrote: there is no way you can be sure if Gomas or Avilo would have won if they both played yesterday. so saying that avilo should´ve won I disagree. Imho both had good chances to win this.
and about the avilo - beastyqt match as being a cc ref also. I think they reacted to quickly before looking thru all options they could have done. But I dont blame them for making that decission, they had to make one, that game would have continued for hours. Avilo should've accepted that and just replayed the game. army advantage vs gas advantage, it was about as even as it could get.
this is just what I PERSONALLY think about this.
lol @ jim trying to cover up how much of a-holes you guys were yesterday. You know you weren't comparing me to a comedian lofl. You could at least man up and just apologize instead of trying to bs your way out of that one.
And yeah...I didn't win...I'd still have to play gomas in the final...
And no, I was clearly going to win game 2. It makes absolutely no sense to do a re-game, because the re-game can take ANOTHER hour. How is that fair to the player that has worked for 1 hr to wittle down his opponent and finally kill him? All that does is make it so one player gets to re-roll their chance to win a game that they were losing.
And as for people that don't know about lategame TvT, the only thing that matters that late game in TvT is your unit composition. Your resources can matter some, but it's who kills more gas units, and who has the better army base, and who can kill the other person's army finally. Which I was about to do lofl. Oh well!
You'd be surprised how many long games I have in my replay folder that are exactly like this, where the game "seems close" yet there's no point where the opponent ever has a chance lol.
Anyways, if this were to happen in another tournament, you can't just re-game over and over...unless it really were a draw situation in which both players agreed neither could do anything.
Re-gaming just makes another game that would probably last the same amount of time total that the current game would last if it were allowed to be finished like it obviously should have been. *common sense* + basic math
You just needed to accept to regame. I believe admins just wanted to end all this that same night without postponing. The third game had to be the decider - however long it could have been (maybe admins would have picked a small map hard to tell). You didn't agree for a regame where there were no other choices left in order to advance. So you were disqualified. Not because of your playstyle - just because you didn't accept admins decision, which was good imo. You were slightly ahead but the winner was not clear. You can think that you were a real winner of the 2nd match, but to decide a winner that game needed to last all night - and that wasn't appropriate. Regame could have went more smoothly. If it was again stalemate - then it's admins call. Imho if it was a stalemate again you go through because you won the first game. Simple as that. I don't think you would have lost self-respect agreeing for a regame. If I was you I would have accepted just to kick my opponents ass and to show everybody that I am truly better. And your playstyle is unique I must say. At first it was strange to watch such games, I even threw some "wtf", but thinking more I believe it was a cool game (I watched only second). Just freaking long. And if your opponent can't beat your defense then it's his problem. if you want to win you have to beat the other guy. There's no other way. Nobody forbids the attacking player to take more bases, more resources and so build more troops to beat the opponent. Beastyqt was also disqualified for bm. Also a fair decision imo. Although he says he was provoked by you earlier. So I don't think admins were biased.
On February 11 2011 02:24 Arkansassy wrote: I, as several others have stated, am certain the right decision would have been (after Avilo said I'm about ready to wrap this up) to give him whatever the admins deemed a feasible time allotment.
Even Gomas doesn't know that Avilo would have won CC; however, he wasn't even given the opportunity. That's what he wanted. Admins acted hastily, Imbatv casters were insulting. At least McDuffs admitted his error in judgment. Mr. Raynor, on the other hand, just keeps making excuses.
At this point, only a couple people associated with CraftCup and Imbatv have been man enough to step up to the plate and give Avilo what he does deserve and that's an apology.
both players were given a time limit in which they should have attacked and they both didnt
Avilo posted his IRC chat with one of the admins awhile ago. I don't recall seeing that anywhere in it. So a time limit was not given. But maybe I missed that and you can quote it.
These kind of situations happened all the time when I was playing FFA in Warcraft 3. Humans could just turtle and make a million towers with no way for me as a night elf to kill them. Its UNBELIEVABLE frustrating to play against. Dragging the game out for as long as possible to make your opponent either rage quit or quit out of boredom. I believe the towers have since been nerfed cause they were too strong. Likewise terran defense in SC2 could be too strong and maybe need a nerf.
Anyway I have bm´d more players than I can count cause of their overly defensive and turteling playstyle. In the end its up to Blizzard whether terran defensive abilities should get changed or nerfed. But if you play the game like Avilo and takes full advantage of the defense with the only purpose of dragging the game out for as long as possible dont expect anyone to be nice and not bm you.
In other words if you play like a retard you will get treated as such and I totally understand Beastys BM. Playing like that is disrespectful to the streamers, the viewers, the organizers and the opponent, and to whoever suggested bc´s: Good luck going up against a million ravens, vikings and ghosts.
The game was almost 100% even when it ended and no Avilo, you were NOT really ahead and you would not have been able to end the game anytime soon.
A rematch was the right descision I think but not allowing anyone to be terran was hilarious to be honest. Instead they should have made the rematch on Blistering Sands as it has fewer bases and turteling wont get you very far.
Finally if I was admin I would ban Avilo from future tournaments unless he makes an official apology. I would also make rules that clearly states that playing overly defensive will get you dissqualified from future tournaments.
I dont think this is a one-time incident that we will never see repeated. In fact I am almost certain we will, when others find out how far you can get with turteling and defensive play
I see a lot of people suggesting different maps for the re-game. It should be noted that game 1 between these two occurred on Steppes of War and was at or over an hour long.
On February 11 2011 05:00 Maista wrote: can somebody make a poll for carom3D, quakelive, worms armageddon or multiplayer pacman as tiebreak options? ^^
Hell yes maista lets have a quakelive match to deiced the winner! that sounds like awesome
So horrible decisions, watched (or listened) the end of this game cast and having seen this TvT tank vs tank stalemate thing before and how avilo had the upper hand on air and was gonna progress I can't see how it could be called stalemate.
Yea the game was over an hour long, big fucking deal? You got a rule that states a game can't be over 60 minutes? Okay, so Gomas was waiting for the final, that sucks for him and it was getting late in EU, true also, was it around 3am where I live or so listening in. That's not when you do a regame of an hour long game to another hour long game, that's when you postpone the final to the next day then. Duh.
Also that "no1 is allowed to play t"
Seriously, what? Could some of the admins of that match please come and somehow try justify just what the fuck is that kind of decision? Can you possibly find a rule in your cup page showing situations where players are forced to play their offrace? :D:D no ofc you can't since the whole idea is ridiculous. Try make a poll and see how many of your players would agree to such a rule implemented, that there may be arbitrary situations where you may be forced to offrace your match, omg...
Avilo's playstyle might be boring to watch, but he isn't the only one I've seen come up with these games and clearly his way of dealing with it when that situation emerges is a lot better than I've seen in the other players ending there. That's not a reason to call regames mid match when he is at the point of pushing in.
On February 11 2011 05:00 Maista wrote: can somebody make a poll for carom3D, quakelive, worms armageddon or multiplayer pacman as tiebreak options? ^^
that is an option but i just think we (well you) need to utilize the Referee ingame option more - as a referee i believe you can pause the match - and the players can see what you write in the chat
On February 11 2011 05:32 daemir wrote: So horrible decisions, watched (or listened) the end of this game cast and having seen this TvT tank vs tank stalemate thing before and how avilo had the upper hand on air and was gonna progress I can't see how it could be called stalemate.
Yes Avilo had a slightly advantage. But "was gonna progress"? At what pace? Killing 5 tanks in 1 hour?
On February 11 2011 05:32 daemir wrote: Yea the game was over an hour long, big fucking deal? You got a rule that states a game can't be over 60 minutes? Okay, so Gomas was waiting for the final, that sucks for him and it was getting late in EU, true also, was it around 3am where I live or so listening in. That's not when you do a regame of an hour long game to another hour long game, that's when you postpone the final to the next day then. Duh.
Rule: "Players who cause huge delays by going afk or having a lot of DCs may possibly be removed from a running tournament. The active admin can take this decision when a match delays the progress of the whole tournament." Obviously the match delayed the whole tournament. And why are you so certain the third game would have been an hour long? Plus the fact the second game would have definitely lasted for another 2-3 hours. Don't know about postponing. Probably admins wanted to try the third game and see how it will go.
On February 11 2011 05:32 daemir wrote: Also that "no1 is allowed to play t"
Seriously, what? Could some of the admins of that match please come and somehow try justify just what the fuck is that kind of decision? Can you possibly find a rule in your cup page showing situations where players are forced to play their offrace? :D:D no ofc you can't since the whole idea is ridiculous. Try make a poll and see how many of your players would agree to such a rule implemented, that there may be arbitrary situations where you may be forced to offrace your match, omg...
Obviously offrace rematch wasn't the best idea. But admins had to take decision in minutes. And maybe that was just one of the ideas. I am not sure admins would have forced players to play offrace.
NEW and subject to change: If a match is in a draw situation by the headreferees opinion, he can start a 15 ingame minute countdown, while trying to notify the players. If after that time nothing has drastically changed, both players will be removed from the current tournament. If both players can not be notified then the 75 ingame minute might be the deadline.
I actually like the ambiguity of "drastically changed". That's too hard too define in a rule. I like how both players would be removed. This dual removal forces BOTH players into action. I do think having a time-limit is a good idea. I think seventy-five minutes is a good amount of time. The tournament must go on. However, I think some rules about stalling should be added. "If one player is deliberately stalling the game and not playing towards victory... blah blah".
How I would interpret those rules on the game yesterday: The game was not in a draw situation. A draw situation is when both players either are unable or unwilling to change the game state. That had not happened. The game state was changing very slowly. The game WAS going beyond a reasonable time frame. Neither player was deliberately stalling. As avilo has shown in game 1 and many other games of his... he does have a plan to win a prolonged TvT. If, somehow, avilo is determined to be stalling in game 2 then beasty must also be determined to be stalling. He was playing the same way.
I do like how CraftCup is taking measures to correct the situation. I also like how they are making rules that are as fair as possible and rules that set a good precedence for future rulings and crazy situations. Good work.
Some comments: Casters have it hard. Their job is to make words spew out of their mouth constantly. In the game of avilo against beasty that was a difficult task. I am unsure what was said or not said, and unsure of what was insulting or not insulting, but I understand that casters have it hard. Attempting to correctly report facts and precise numbers constantly is insanely difficult. Mistakes and poorly worded comments are expected at times and if not done too frequently and are honest mistakes they should be quickly forgiven. Judges/administrators who should put forth the time and effort to make rulings should be criticized differently.
DND_Enkil: "It is easy to point at something and scream wrong when you have no better solution yourself..."
I posted a better solution and the reasoning why:Link
Pitons: " To decide a winner it would have needed to take another 2-3 hours. And regarding the fact the tournament can't last forever it was a good and best decision."
Once again... the time argument isn't logical. Restarting a game is not in the interest of time. Restarting a game does not prevent a tournament from lasting forever. Your next post:
Pitons:"The third game had to be the decider - however long it could have been (maybe admins would have picked a small map hard to tell)."
However long it could have been!?! You want the tournament not to last forever but you want the third game to take "however long it could have been". These comments are contradictory. Also, the third game should not be the decider. avilo has won a game. beasty has not. At best, if you throw away the second game, the third game can only result in a win for avilo or a time for beasty. Thus, it is not necessarily the decider.
"Pitons: " To decide a winner it would have needed to take another 2-3 hours. And regarding the fact the tournament can't last forever it was a good and best decision."
Once again... the time argument isn't logical. Restarting a game is not in the interest of time. Restarting a game does not prevent a tournament from lasting forever. Your next post:"
Time argument is logical if it is clear the game will last for hours. That was the case. Rematch doesn't necessary mean the game will last for 2 hours again, does it? New game-new story. In case rematch would have again lasted an hour - then it's admins call. I just want to say - resuming the 2nd game meant several hours of play for sure. There were better chances the rematch will last shorter. If not - as i said - admins call.
"Pitons:"The third game had to be the decider - however long it could have been (maybe admins would have picked a small map hard to tell)."
However long it could have been!?! You want the tournament not to last forever but you want the third game to take "however long it could have been". These comments are contradictory. Also, the third game should not be the decider. avilo has won a game. beasty has not. At best, if you throw away the second game, the third game can only result in a win for avilo or a time for beasty. Thus, it is not necessarily the decider."
However long I mean short, average or long game (game till about an hour let's say - an hour game is long. I am not talking about 5 hours of superturtle game here ofc). Any of them. For 2nd game to finish it was needed hours imo. In rematch case - if it's stalemate after an about an hour again - admins have to decide again what to do. The right decision would be - avilo advances because he won 1st game. In any case finishing the 2nd game would last longer than one hour of the third game. And you want my comments to be contradictory, but I don't see how they are. And of course - if avilo wins the third game - he advances, if draw - avilo advances again, if beastyQT wins - admins decision. Flip the coin, whatever. In any case - somebody advances. Semifinal is bo3. So if second game is draw the third game needs to be played. 2 wins are needed to advance (or 1:2:0 in super rare cases). If the result is 1:1:1 admins decide who advances imo.
I like the new rule, and in posting of this rule you admit that you handled the situation wrongly. So I think a full apology to Avilo (and the viewers) would be appropriate so we can all move on.
if any of you played wc3 you would have known that if in an official tournament the game would last more than 30 minutes, vision of the map would be granted and at 40 min the game would draw if nobody won
On February 11 2011 05:32 daemir wrote: Yea the game was over an hour long, big fucking deal? You got a rule that states a game can't be over 60 minutes? Okay, so Gomas was waiting for the final, that sucks for him and it was getting late in EU, true also, was it around 3am where I live or so listening in. That's not when you do a regame of an hour long game to another hour long game, that's when you postpone the final to the next day then. Duh.
Rule: "Players who cause huge delays by going afk or having a lot of DCs may possibly be removed from a running tournament. The active admin can take this decision when a match delays the progress of the whole tournament." Obviously the match delayed the whole tournament. And why are you so certain the third game would have been an hour long? Plus the fact the second game would have definitely lasted for another 2-3 hours. Don't know about postponing. Probably admins wanted to try the third game and see how it will go.
Just to point out something that has already been said before. The rule you are looking at is in regards to DCs and/or AFKs. It does not refer to slow game play. You cannot simply remove the conditions for the rule to apply it to a different scenario. There were no DCs or AFKs during the match in question. Therefore that rule is not applicable.
Edit- I like the new rule. It will force both players to take action or risk both getting eliminated. From a fan/viewer perspective the only issue I see would be if the rule was invoked during a semis match. For example, is this hypothetically occurred the other day then Gomas' win would be rather anti-climatic. However, it should effectively remove a majority of the controversy.
Edit 2 - I might be reading it wrong but it sounds like if admins cannot reach the players the match *might* get called at 75 minutes. It does not stipulate what happens in this case. Are both players removed even though they weren't notified? Do they re-game with an admin present to supervise the game and invoke the countdown if needed? I think that section of the rule could be fleshed out a bit more.
On February 11 2011 05:32 daemir wrote: Yea the game was over an hour long, big fucking deal? You got a rule that states a game can't be over 60 minutes? Okay, so Gomas was waiting for the final, that sucks for him and it was getting late in EU, true also, was it around 3am where I live or so listening in. That's not when you do a regame of an hour long game to another hour long game, that's when you postpone the final to the next day then. Duh.
Rule: "Players who cause huge delays by going afk or having a lot of DCs may possibly be removed from a running tournament. The active admin can take this decision when a match delays the progress of the whole tournament." Obviously the match delayed the whole tournament. And why are you so certain the third game would have been an hour long? Plus the fact the second game would have definitely lasted for another 2-3 hours. Don't know about postponing. Probably admins wanted to try the third game and see how it will go.
Just to point out something that has already been said before. The rule you are looking at is in regards to DCs and/or AFKs. It does not refer to slow game play. You cannot simply remove the conditions for the rule to apply it to a different scenario. There were no DCs or AFKs during the match in question. Therefore that rule is not applicable.
Edit- I like the new rule. It will force both players to take action or risk both getting eliminated. From a fan/viewer perspective the only issue I see would be if the rule was invoked during a semis match. For example, is this hypothetically occurred the other day then Gomas' win would be rather anti-climatic. However, it should effectively remove a majority of the controversy.
Then my bad. I thought the second part of the rule about delaying fits it. If it's only delays are created by afk and DC's then it doesn't fit ofc. Obviously delays can be created not only by afk and DC's. Long games can occur in normal conditions. Strange admins didn't think about such a scenario.
On February 11 2011 06:42 UnholyRai wrote: I like the new rule, and in posting of this rule you admit that you handled the situation wrongly. So I think a full apology to Avilo (and the viewers) would be appropriate so we can all move on.
the admin and avilo disagree. no need for an apology. this is now a monstruous thread, has Avilo apologized for his refusal accept the administrator's decision and refusing to play on in the tournament while Gomas waited a long long time?
a pillar of this new rule includes an arbitrary decision made by a CraftCup admin about what constitutes "drastically changed".
a player in the future may still disagree what constitutes an admins arbitrary interpretation of "drastic change".
if a player in a free event that pays out money to the winner disagrees with an admin we all know what happens every time.
the CraftCup will continue to basically be the exact same tournament it has been over the past 18 months as KW.ConquerCup, ConquerCup, CraftCup and US.CraftCup...
thousands have played in the past and as long as the combined monthy prize giveaway money amounts amongst CraftCup.com and its client partners continue to increase so will participation in this family of events.
even tho i announced to post my personal statement here - i decided NOT to do that anymore - this whole situation just became bashing eachtohers heads and nothing more
On February 11 2011 06:42 UnholyRai wrote: I like the new rule, and in posting of this rule you admit that you handled the situation wrongly. So I think a full apology to Avilo (and the viewers) would be appropriate so we can all move on.
the admin and avilo disagree. no need for an apology. this is now a monstruous thread, has Avilo apologized for his refusal accept the administrator's decision and refusing to play on in the tournament while Gomas waited a long long time?
I can't believe how immature this statement is. In this whole thread, you've done nothing but make up excuses and trying to cover up the whole story, proving a level of incompetence I've rarely seen before. It's sad that you probably won't suffer any consequences from this, yet I hope that you keep this attitude forever so that it will come back at you one day.
On February 11 2011 08:59 Fireborn wrote: I can't believe how immature this statement is. In this whole thread, you've done nothing but make up excuses and trying to cover up the whole story, proving a level of incompetence I've rarely seen before. It's sad that you probably won't suffer any consequences from this, yet I hope that you keep this attitude forever so that it will come back at you one day.
WOW!!! your own attitude is even worse! Who are you with only 3 TL posts, all of them being in this thread? You're showing some deep grudge and hatred over some little mistake, making such a big deal out of it. The lesson was learned, and we're all trying to move on.
I can't believe how immature this statement is. In this whole thread, you've done nothing but make up excuses and trying to cover up the whole story, proving a level of incompetence I've rarely seen before....
incompetent?
while people were busy insulting avilo i was busy predicting his ascension over a month ago
and some people in here try to make some kind of theory that i am "biased against the guy". they don't even bother to listen to the CCLite #38 VOD where i state he is in an advantageous position while listing the unit count differences among other factors
as i like to say on the cast... "i'm not biased... i'm a broadcast journalist".
On February 11 2011 06:42 UnholyRai wrote: I like the new rule, and in posting of this rule you admit that you handled the situation wrongly. So I think a full apology to Avilo (and the viewers) would be appropriate so we can all move on.
the admin and avilo disagree. no need for an apology. this is now a monstruous thread, has Avilo apologized for his refusal accept the administrator's decision and refusing to play on in the tournament while Gomas waited a long long time?
a pillar of this new rule includes an arbitrary decision made by a CraftCup admin about what constitutes "drastically changed".
a player in the future may still disagree what constitutes an admins arbitrary interpretation of "drastic change".
if a player in a free event that pays out money to the winner disagrees with an admin we all know what happens every time.
the CraftCup will continue to basically be the exact same tournament it has been over the past 18 months as KW.ConquerCup, ConquerCup, CraftCup and US.CraftCup...
thousands have played in the past and as long as the combined monthy prize giveaway money amounts amongst CraftCup.com and its client partners continue to increase so will participation in this family of events.
? I never apologized for such a thing. I stand by my decision from b4. And if you think comparing a player to a retarded person on a live cast doesn't warrant an apology, then that's just you man.
The only reason people are even still talking about this is because you keep spewing out bs to cover your own ass.
the admin and avilo disagree. no need for an apology. this is now a monstruous thread, has Avilo apologized for his refusal accept the administrator's decision and refusing to play on in the tournament while Gomas waited a long long time?
? I never apologized for such a thing. I stand by my decision from b4. And if you think comparing a player to a retarded person on a live cast doesn't warrant an apology, then that's just you man. The only reason people are even still talking about this is because you keep spewing out bs to cover your own ass.
examining the last several posts none of it revolves around the 2 video clips, but rather the rule change CraftCup just instituted and whether or not the DQ was valid...
this thread has now folded over upon itself as now the contents of this very thread are becoming a source of debate and disagreement... so that is my last comment on this.....
notice my sentence "long long time.."ends in a question mark. i had no idea whether or not you apologized. .. its good that you've clarified it though.. this thread is now 10+ pages...its hard to keep track.
i suspect by the slang term "retarded" you mean mentally handicapped. if you are using this slang term in some other fashion feel free to provide the correct interpretation. it is 100% clear the way Nathan Barnatt is walking and talking that he is not mentally handicapped. a mentally handicapped person can not form sentences as complex as Nathan does during the video. in fact, he is extremely lucid. he clearly and carefully explains he is staggering around due to excessive back pain during every segment of the video. it is also clear that Nathan Barnatt in the video in question is the exact same guy as the "4 Bright BUttons and 2 Joysticks" guy which was on in the previous video 90 seconds earlier... again clearly not "retarded"/"mentally handicapped".
also, the whole thing would be way too big a contridiction... on the one hand as i was doing in my "radio report" you have taken BeastyQT, (top 1000 player out of millions buying the game) into a 45+ match where i say you hold an advantage and some how you are comparable to someone who is mentally handicapped.... makes no sense dude.
half of what i said during the video was me reading aloud what was written in the chat room and half was my own words.
you can always add this incident to the portfolio of victim hood credentials you are building in beefs with various web sites though.
as stated earlier this is my last comment on this.
I don't like the new craft-cup rule (removing both players from the tournament if time runs out in a game). I think one fact everyone is leaving aside is that the game was the 2nd game in a BO3.
I would prefer a rule similar to other games do it, for example MTG:
* The whole series has a certain time limit, let's say 2h for a BO3, 1h for a BO1. A game, that is still not decided after the time limit for the whole series is expired, is automatically considered as a draw (no matter how big the advantage was for one side).
* Referes proving that you are intentionally stalling to reach the time limit in a losing position however (e.g. floating buildings), would result in a D/Q and probably also a several month ban.
* Playing passive in an open game would be fine.
This suggestion would handle all the 1:0 + 2nd game running out of time situations fine.
For situations with games 1:1 + 3rd game running out of time or BO1 games, I would suggest a tiebraker that needs no referees judgement, e.g. use army value (in resources) + unspent resources as tiebreaker. Whoever has more resources gets the win for the 3rd game. If you feel that the resource rule is not fair enough, I would even consider a coinflip.
Of course you should add some warnings at the 1h45 mark the the time limit is close.
I know that these suggestion are pretty harsh, not 100% thought through yet and might have an influence on the playstyle of the players in game 2 and 3 e.g. more cheese by the player down 0:1 or more focus on resources. But with some refinement, these suggestion could handle time limitations in tournaments in the most fair way.
You need also to consider potential racial imbalance, e.g. in a TvZ, maybe time management in a winning positon is easier for T instead for a Z player. But I think this suggested rule will effect TvT games 95% of the time.
It takes dramas and incidents like these for events such as CraftCup to move forward im afraid, decisions have to be made for mistakes to be made, so lessons can be learned. Hopefully we can all take this life lesson away with us and give us all a better chance of understanding and accepting that life is just not fair sometimes. Lets be honest, adding some Drama to an otherwise still and lifeless scene full of sycophants and infants is going to be entertaining, bring on the rage :D
The only reason such a fuss has been made is because of the complete negligence of the admins and casters to admit to their mistakes. Specifically Raynor, that guy appears to be living in la la land. Is it really so difficult to realise you've upset someone with your casting and accept responsibility?
On February 12 2011 03:19 shaunnn wrote: wow nerchio just raped beastyqt
Having to play nerchio in the first round must be some kind of divine punishment for his bm last time. :lol
Nerchio is an absolute beast. One of the top 3 random players in the world for sure.
Not as many good players participating today, though. But I'm willing to attribute this to Assembly (although Darkforce is playing - he got knocked out earlier today) and not this week's drama. I expect Druzdil, nerchio, Goody and Darkforce to dominate.
edit: oh god, goody vs avilo in round 5 - looks like we'll see the new rule enacted earlier than thought :p :p
I want to thank all of the "squeaky wheels" for getting this NEW rule up and running. It's not perfect, but because of the so-called "drama" there is now a rule governing future "long games." Possibly the only positive in an otherwise disappointing event.
I have both relatives and friends who live in Canada and even the girls there are "man enough" to admit when they've made a mistake in judgment.
A sorry few extended an apology, where one was definitely warranted But my total and utter respect for those who did.
On February 12 2011 04:33 Bobster wrote: 40 minute game already, map split down the middle, a bajillion tanks on the field.
Who would've thought. >_>
BUT theres actually alot of action
Yep, Goody is too... good to let things just stagnate like that.
Avilo might have a similarly slow playstyle, but Goody is just a class above in micro and multitasking.
Lol. It was a gg, but FYI, I didn't copy him, and he didn't copy me. We just both happen to play the same way if I had realized he was going to waltz tanks to the left side of the map, it'd be a much diff game considering my army was being almost 2x more cost effective.
Watching replay, he had started to get fewer resources than me, with his side of the map being mined out and mine not so mined out...next time the tanks don't walk up the left side , same if I'd known about the island as I did the mass drop at the start of game. Oh well.
i was rooting for beastyq, but avilo deserved to win, anyhow tough decision for the admins as they cannot give any ingame chat... anyhow.. i guess this was a bad decision, and even if draw was called, avilo should got the win with 1,5 pts vs 0,5pt for Beastyq... I also lost my interest in CraftCup..
On February 12 2011 21:40 jarod wrote: i was rooting for beastyq, but avilo deserved to win, anyhow tough decision for the admins as they cannot give any ingame chat... anyhow.. i guess this was a bad decision, and even if draw was called, avilo should got the win with 1,5 pts vs 0,5pt for Beastyq... I also lost my interest in CraftCup..
Dude, in bo3 3 games are played or 2 games if one player has the first 2 wins (third game doesn't matter then). 1,5 pts is not 2 wins. Regame was a fine choice because if the third game went to beastyQT it would have been a draw - 1,5:1,5 or 1:1:1. Then it's admins call. It would be clearly unfair for a player in beastyQT's position to deny him a chance (which is by rules) for a win, wouldn't it?
Avilo was disqualified because he didn't agree with admins decision for a third game. Avilo needed not to be so stubborn and just rematch. BeastyQT was disqualified for bm. Gomas wins. End of story.
@Pitons: ok I agree that 3th match should have been played in the situation of a tie in the 2nd match. But the 2nd match was stopped i guess for no reason from the admins, yeah i know it was a long and boring game, but still there never was a 3 minute "off" time without mining or fights (as far as i know this is the tie implementation in sc2), so they should have just wait the end of the game.
Ex: MKP vs Nada - i guess match 2 in GSL4 (GLS1 in 2011). It was really close to a tie, but MKP won. Nobody came in and told the players that it is tie.
On February 14 2011 18:52 jarod wrote: @Pitons: ok I agree that 3th match should have been played in the situation of a tie in the 2nd match. But the 2nd match was stopped i guess for no reason from the admins, yeah i know it was a long and boring game, but still there never was a 3 minute "off" time without mining or fights (as far as i know this is the tie implementation in sc2), so they should have just wait the end of the game.
2nd match would have lasted for hours imho. Fast progress wasn't possible. it would have been a suicide for whoever tried it. regame was a fine choice. Again - imo. It seems my and admins opinions were the same. Your opinion is different and that is good otherwise everybody would act and think the same. In that case our lives would be boring and with no progress. In any case admins were in charge and they made a call. End of story I guess. But this call however it is judged is the reason everybody discussed the matter and offered maybe better solutions for the future. Progress was made.
On February 16 2011 00:58 jarod wrote: I have a question.. plz answer, how the admins announced the players, which had set busy status? This is very weird for an on-line competition
Beastyqt was on IRC and got PM'd by the admins because they were both busy ingame - ive even explained this before in this post i believe
yeah somehow there was a craftcup on the site saying for about 30minutes that it was on air but it was propably just an error that why i was wondering that there were no streams. is it allready known who is casting from imba.tv ? will be fun again this night with imba.tv :D at gtm+1 19:00 \o0/
edit: oh they are allready streaming and with the two people who are the most fun on to watch mcduff and jimraynor ( if i'm right ^^")
On February 19 2011 08:21 FreeUrMind wrote: AiSeiplo is the typical 1 base all in noob...
Well, he has a good+ micro, a very nice reaction time from minimap, and seems skilled. I only saw 2 games and he blink stalker allined in both, but that doesn't means he can't do anything else. The 2 maps he used blink on are good candidates, and he won the first one so that doesn't makes him a noob imo :o
Morrow did not play at his best at all, his macro was slipping which is not typical for him, he had 2k gas stockpiled and at a point he could have had like 10-15 broodlords had he teched to Hive and greater spire, another opiion was drops - as toss army was very immobile or he could even use nydus network
On February 19 2011 08:55 FreeUrMind wrote: Morrow did not play at his best at all, his macro was slipping which is not typical for him, he had 2k gas stockpiled and at a point he could have had like 10-15 broodlords had he teched to Hive and greater spire, another opiion was drops - as toss army was very immobile or he could even use nydus network
How is an army consisting of blink stalker and colossus almost entirely immobile?
Also how does seiplo not know how to defend a cannon rush. O_O
Satiini goes up to 5 bases heavy bio inside 15minutes, drops 5 starports for mass bc's, more orbitals for mules, and slowly pummels goody into submission while bringing nukes to the party too =)
http://www.justin.tv/glhf/b/280381752 ^^ CraftCup Vods. Sorry it's a little disorganized and has some BDL games, we're working with JTV to get the vod system to work with us better.
My god was Merz TvT paly vs Kas in game one sexy! Its the first time i Merzs build, i wonder if its going to be a new trend in TvT? One can allways hope eh
Another craftcup and another drama was there today. Game 3 vs Serashin he had download up whole game and had no intention of turning it off making the game unplayable. I told him couple of times to turn it off and he said "i cant do anything about it". I paused and asked him to wait for lag to be over because I cant play like that, I tabbed and when I came back in game I saw he unpaused the game without giving a warning for it, when I told him dont do that and paused again he just.....did it again.
Arguing continued, I told him to fix his lag problems several times in which he replied "do you tell ppl in africa to fix their problems too?" and just kept playing. Not sure what he meant by that sentence he said, but it didnt sound very nice.
Since I couldnt pause anymore because he kept unpausing (I was out of pauses) I had to keep playing, once game was over I told admins what happend in which Maista head admin of craftcup replied: " maista: okay yher eis my opinion on the unpausing: i think unpausing should be not allowed by the rules without a real reason
Also for those who dont know, reason why I got disqualified in one of craftcups was because I said "when did you get out of bronze" so apperantly that is worse than comparing internet lag problems to problems that people in Africa have, like Serashin did and he broke the rules of craftcup by unpausing game when I paused in first place (breaking rules results in instant disqualification).
Admins decided that all that Serashin did was okay anyway and "they will investigate" giving him pass to semi finals without giving me a regame without lag or disqualifing him for what he did. You can download replay from craftcup site and see it for yourself and post your opinion about it, it was game on xel naga caverns uploaded by me.
This is second time craftcup admins did nothing when I asked them for help and gave them proof for it and even they admin its against rules they just did nothing. After all this (I know many will probably troll and say some dumb stuff but its oke everyone will grow up one day) I've decided this will be my last craftcup played, I had good time with craftcup tournament, casters and viewers, but this is just ridiculous.
On March 26 2011 08:20 Beastyqt wrote: Another craftcup and another drama was there today. Game 3 vs Serashin he had download up whole game and had no intention of turning it off making the game unplayable. I told him couple of times to turn it off and he said "i cant do anything about it". I paused and asked him to wait for lag to be over because I cant play like that, I tabbed and when I came back in game I saw he unpaused the game without giving a warning for it, when I told him dont do that and paused again he just.....did it again.
Arguing continued, I told him to fix his lag problems several times in which he replied "do you tell ppl in africa to fix their problems too?" and just kept playing. Not sure what he meant by that sentence he said, but it didnt sound very nice.
Since I couldnt pause anymore because he kept unpausing (I was out of pauses) I had to keep playing, once game was over I told admins what happend in which Maista head admin of craftcup replied: " maista: okay yher eis my opinion on the unpausing: i think unpausing should be not allowed by the rules without a real reason
Also for those who dont know, reason why I got disqualified in one of craftcups was because I said "when did you get out of bronze" so apperantly that is worse than comparing internet lag problems to problems that people in Africa have, like Serashin did and he broke the rules of craftcup by unpausing game when I paused in first place (breaking rules results in instant disqualification).
Admins decided that all that Serashin did was okay anyway and "they will investigate" giving him pass to semi finals without giving me a regame without lag or disqualifing him for what he did. You can download replay from craftcup site and see it for yourself and post your opinion about it, it was game on xel naga caverns uploaded by me.
This is second time craftcup admins did nothing when I asked them for help and gave them proof for it and even they admin its against rules they just did nothing. After all this (I know many will probably troll and say some dumb stuff but its oke everyone will grow up one day) I've decided this will be my last craftcup played, I had good time with craftcup tournament, casters and viewers, but this is just ridiculous.
Have fun
Wow that is bad manner, I support Beastyqt and believe that Serashin was totally in the wrong. Shame CraftCup admins didnt do their job...
I appreciate that the admins have a very rough time, and need to consider keeping the tournament moving on schedule, but these sort of snap decisions can't go towards a player who didnt just break the rules, but by my understanding of it did it in terribly bm fashion. I would really like to see what the craft admins, who I think usually do an excellent job have to say on the matter. It sucks for beasty, he has given alot of great finals for us to watch.
Man this is lame missed this craftcup because the time reported to tl.net was wrong.
Surprisingly low competition count, less than some z33k.com dailies :S. vvv.glon, darkchigo, zerker, and a couple others- being the entire skilled player base.
Thanks for the amazing games tonight guys! One of the very best tournament streams on Teamliquid. More people definitely need to check out CraftCup and IMBAtv!
Today, we proudly present CardCoaches.com as the sponsor for upcoming CraftCups. They run a new high profile German poker school, where you can learn how to grind pokerrooms and easily make real money.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.bitsperbeat.com/sc2/files/2010/07/craftcup-logo.png){kind=logo}
big thanks to you guys for arranging these cups!
![[image loading]](http://s2.noelshack.com/uploads/images/10327914765234_capture_dacran_20110108__004432.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oR4Wj.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-187903.jpg)
Although, I am flattered that in our second game he decided to try and mimic my lategame style. I believe him to be my biggest fan. 
but i just think we (well you) need to utilize the Referee ingame option more - as a referee i believe you can pause the match - and the players can see what you write in the chat![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9HjeM.png)
