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Pretty interesting game by TY against Soulkey, TY had an excellent game plan that revolved around occupying a key location on the map, which enabled him a lot of freedom in his decision making after having secured the spot.
link to video can be found here
some discussion questions!
1) should Soulkey have tried to use more than 1 nydus network, say 2-3 to hit both the main base + the 5th,6th base of TY?
2) An alternative to nydus could be viper abduct on the liberators. Could this be effective to rush out vipers and have a corruptor ball to deal with the liberators?
3) How could have Soulkey defended more effectively against drops? We saw him constantly getting dropped in the main base with seemingly no effective answer to dealing with the constant drop aggression on opposite ends of the map by TY
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1. Possibly, seems good on paper, I'm sure would require an absurd amount of multi task to make it work.
2. Vipers are not good against Liberators if the Terran can even remotely anticipate the abduct and split against the cloud which we all know pro level Koreans are awe inspiring at doing. Even Corruptors don't fair too well, I think you need to not let the Terran sit there and build up 10 + Liberators and trade.
3. Think that was just poor play on Soulkeys end tbh, drops are nothing new and you need a Mutalisk task force out to contest them or you're not leaving your base as Zerg.
Soulkey definitely didn't play well and TY looked clean but from what I'm seeing, pro level ZvT isn't exactly looking to wonderful to Zerg win rates in the match. I'm of the belief that if Zerg get's PB nerfed then Liberators are just going to dominate the match up. Better to wait for better maps and let the metagame develop a bit more.
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On December 25 2015 04:03 Beelzebub1 wrote: 1. Possibly, seems good on paper, I'm sure would require an absurd amount of multi task to make it work.
2. Vipers are not good against Liberators if the Terran can even remotely anticipate the abduct and split against the cloud which we all know pro level Koreans are awe inspiring at doing. Even Corruptors don't fair too well, I think you need to not let the Terran sit there and build up 10 + Liberators and trade.
3. Think that was just poor play on Soulkeys end tbh, drops are nothing new and you need a Mutalisk task force out to contest them or you're not leaving your base as Zerg.
Soulkey definitely didn't play well and TY looked clean but from what I'm seeing, pro level ZvT isn't exactly looking to wonderful to Zerg win rates in the match. I'm of the belief that if Zerg get's PB nerfed then Liberators are just going to dominate the match up. Better to wait for better maps and let the metagame develop a bit more.
TY sent many drops into soulkeys main, the majority of them 2-3 medvacs full of units. As a zerg player, going past like 16 mutalisks cust a lot into supply and money for better tech units, so how do you effectively rely on a mutalisk task force to contest them if they are dropping like 12 marines and a couple medvacs without having to overcommit larger parts of your army?
2) You say that you need to not let the terran sit up and build 10+ liberators and trade, that was my line of reasoning for utilizing vipers as well. Anticipating an abduct is not a very easy thing to do and short of anticipating it, you'd still have to move the liberator's back, thereby giving up the positioning their liberation defnse was holding. The idea behind the vipers is that if you have like 3-4 vipers starting to abduct or threaten abducts at the terran liberator count early on (before they get to like a 10+ critical mass), you can effectively keep their army from reaching a stronger point and can utilize timing advantages based on an extended low liberator count
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Soulkey made no vipers at all that game, it was a complete throw. His multitasking was pretty poor, he had multiple moments where he could have taken control of the middle of the map at little cost and neglected to push it. Parabomb would have wrecked the 17 liberator shotgun of TY, especially combined with fungal growth. Though that was quite hilarious to watch Soulkey's air army evaporate. The game was pretty much over at that point, but still goes on for a pretty long time as TY slowly spoons him out.
As for nydus, as long as he didn't go Bly Nydus, it probably would have been a good idea to throw out a few more. He could easily have set up ultra runbys towards Ty's further expansions and stretched his army into paper and denied further expansions. A spore wall would have been appropriate to cover the tech in the main once Soulkey was maxing out on his desired unit comp.
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On December 25 2015 04:03 Beelzebub1 wrote: 1. Possibly, seems good on paper, I'm sure would require an absurd amount of multi task to make it work.
2. Vipers are not good against Liberators if the Terran can even remotely anticipate the abduct and split against the cloud which we all know pro level Koreans are awe inspiring at doing. Even Corruptors don't fair too well, I think you need to not let the Terran sit there and build up 10 + Liberators and trade.
3. Think that was just poor play on Soulkeys end tbh, drops are nothing new and you need a Mutalisk task force out to contest them or you're not leaving your base as Zerg.
Soulkey definitely didn't play well and TY looked clean but from what I'm seeing, pro level ZvT isn't exactly looking to wonderful to Zerg win rates in the match. I'm of the belief that if Zerg get's PB nerfed then Liberators are just going to dominate the match up. Better to wait for better maps and let the metagame develop a bit more.
Agreed with the PB nerf.
Frankly, this shouldn't surprise anyone except balance whiners. LOTV is still new and the meta is settling and right now pro level Terrans have figured out how to poop on Zerg.
The good news is this is happening before a bunch of zerg nerfs go live.
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On December 25 2015 04:03 Beelzebub1 wrote: 2. Vipers are not good against Liberators if the Terran can even remotely anticipate the abduct and split against the cloud which we all know pro level Koreans are awe inspiring at doing. Even Corruptors don't fair too well, I think you need to not let the Terran sit there and build up 10 + Liberators and trade.
How do you anticipate an abduct? Or the better question: So what if you anticipate it? It is still going to abduct you (or you run away and enemy takes the area).
Of course we don't know how it would have gone with vipers, but Liberators can do really little against vipers. They simply lack the range: Either they all die to PB, or they can be picked of by abducting them one at a time (of course then you do need to have something like spores to prevent him from just flying into your army and still winning).
However another point: You claim that PB isn't very useful because they just split. First of all: It really is not that easy. At the very least it will take everything of their APM, they won't be doing anything else at the same time, and it is an instant cast, so guaranteed damage. There is also this Innovation game where he lost due to PB anhilating his air army. If even innovation isn't perfect against it, I really wouldn't imply it to be of little use.
Then the second part of that point: If they are all good at splitting against AOE damage, why did Soulkey clump up all his units?
Regarding PB: That ability is simply too good and needs a nerf. That however isn't saying that Liberators might not require a nerf too.
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On December 25 2015 08:02 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2015 04:03 Beelzebub1 wrote: 2. Vipers are not good against Liberators if the Terran can even remotely anticipate the abduct and split against the cloud which we all know pro level Koreans are awe inspiring at doing. Even Corruptors don't fair too well, I think you need to not let the Terran sit there and build up 10 + Liberators and trade.
How do you anticipate an abduct? Or the better question: So what if you anticipate it? It is still going to abduct you (or you run away and enemy takes the area). Of course we don't know how it would have gone with vipers, but Liberators can do really little against vipers. They simply lack the range: Either they all die to PB, or they can be picked of by abducting them one at a time (of course then you do need to have something like spores to prevent him from just flying into your army and still winning). However another point: You claim that PB isn't very useful because they just split. First of all: It really is not that easy. At the very least it will take everything of their APM, they won't be doing anything else at the same time, and it is an instant cast, so guaranteed damage. There is also this Innovation game where he lost due to PB anhilating his air army. If even innovation isn't perfect against it, I really wouldn't imply it to be of little use. Then the second part of that point: If they are all good at splitting against AOE damage, why did Soulkey clump up all his units? Regarding PB: That ability is simply too good and needs a nerf. That however isn't saying that Liberators might not require a nerf too.
How do you not? If a Zerg is building Vipers as a response to an air fleet they are either going to PB or going to Abduct, they have to fly towards the unit that they are casting this on of course. Obviously it's not easy, but these are pro level Korean Terrans we are talking about, not us plebs that fail and fumble our micro on the constant, they are more then capable of rapidly splitting to mitigate damage.
"Then the second part of that point: If they are all good at splitting against AOE damage, why did Soulkey clump up all his units?
I clearly admitted that Soulkey played bad and TY played clean, but Corruptors auto stack when you focus fire as well, so I guess magic boxing is the way that could have been prevented.
"Regarding PB: That ability is simply too good and needs a nerf. That however isn't saying that Liberators might not require a nerf too.
I would gladly take a PB nerf for a Liberator nerf. Vipers cost tons of gas, are fragile, and come out way later then Liberators, I just don't understand why their ground mode completely locks the area down (far better then siege tanks) and yet it can be reactored/contest even Corruptors in a straight up fight, aren't all units supposed to have at least one disadvantage? What exactly is the disadvantage to adding more Liberators? As soon as they mop up everything in the sky they pretty much one shot everything except an Ultralisk. A fungal buff might even be suitable to make Infestors a bit stronger vs air play (plus landing a good fungal takes alot of skill) so it's fun to watch.
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On December 25 2015 04:03 Beelzebub1 wrote: 1. Possibly, seems good on paper, I'm sure would require an absurd amount of multi task to make it work.
2. Vipers are not good against Liberators if the Terran can even remotely anticipate the abduct and split against the cloud which we all know pro level Koreans are awe inspiring at doing. Even Corruptors don't fair too well, I think you need to not let the Terran sit there and build up 10 + Liberators and trade.
3. Think that was just poor play on Soulkeys end tbh, drops are nothing new and you need a Mutalisk task force out to contest them or you're not leaving your base as Zerg.
Soulkey definitely didn't play well and TY looked clean but from what I'm seeing, pro level ZvT isn't exactly looking to wonderful to Zerg win rates in the match. I'm of the belief that if Zerg get's PB nerfed then Liberators are just going to dominate the match up. Better to wait for better maps and let the metagame develop a bit more.
Hm I disagree with you on point 2. You have to split corruptors manually and viper cloud is going to help a lot. If you let corruptors clump like Soulkey, then you are correct that corruptors suck.
Otherwise I agree with your assessment although I don't think I agree with Liberators being unstoppable. I could be wrong though
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Needed a mix of viper hydra corruptor rather than pure corruptor with his broodlord army, would have dealt with liberators fine.
As Zerg moves into the lategame probably add a ring of spores in the main to help ward away drops there. Actually the map is pretty big as you're taking the 6th / 7th, maybe use a defensive nydus, put an ultra in a nydus and use it to defend both sides of the map, even use a worm near the front line .. quickly transfer 1-2 ultras to defend a drop. Seems like a good thing. Also just build tech at the natural / 3rd instead of in the main.
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dunno if i go offtopic now. Ravagers would have been incredible effective this game since it was such a late range upgrade for the liberators!
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On December 25 2015 09:47 crazedrat wrote: Needed a mix of viper hydra corruptor rather than pure corruptor with his broodlord army, would have dealt with liberators fine.
As Zerg moves into the lategame probably add a ring of spores in the main to help ward away drops there. Actually the map is pretty big as you're taking the 6th / 7th, maybe use a defensive nydus, put an ultra in a nydus and use it to defend both sides of the map, even use a worm near the front line .. quickly transfer 1-2 ultras to defend a drop. Seems like a good thing. Also just build tech at the natural / 3rd instead of in the main.
a larger ghost count might have been a problem if TY didnt scout a fast broodlord transition
On December 25 2015 10:15 Foxxan wrote: dunno if i go offtopic now. Ravagers would have been incredible effective this game since it was such a late range upgrade for the liberators! its not off topic. perhaps ravager could have helped, maybe like 3-6 to snipe liberators!
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On December 25 2015 09:14 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2015 04:03 Beelzebub1 wrote: 1. Possibly, seems good on paper, I'm sure would require an absurd amount of multi task to make it work.
2. Vipers are not good against Liberators if the Terran can even remotely anticipate the abduct and split against the cloud which we all know pro level Koreans are awe inspiring at doing. Even Corruptors don't fair too well, I think you need to not let the Terran sit there and build up 10 + Liberators and trade.
3. Think that was just poor play on Soulkeys end tbh, drops are nothing new and you need a Mutalisk task force out to contest them or you're not leaving your base as Zerg.
Soulkey definitely didn't play well and TY looked clean but from what I'm seeing, pro level ZvT isn't exactly looking to wonderful to Zerg win rates in the match. I'm of the belief that if Zerg get's PB nerfed then Liberators are just going to dominate the match up. Better to wait for better maps and let the metagame develop a bit more. Hm I disagree with you on point 2. You have to split corruptors manually and viper cloud is going to help a lot. If you let corruptors clump like Soulkey, then you are correct that corruptors suck. Otherwise I agree with your assessment although I don't think I agree with Liberators being unstoppable. I could be wrong though
Admittedly PB is great at it's job I'm not denying that, I just think saying "Omg PB makes air units useless nerf now" isn't really the best move because Terrans can split/micro against it to mitigate damage substantially. I also think that Liberators while incredibly powerful do have counter play as well, therefore there should be no nerfs against anyone until something is definitively overpowered. I know you didn't say anything about anything being OP lol that just seems to be the consensus while ZvT win rates at least at a GSL level.
I think a huge issue with the game right now is the absurdly shitty maps way more then any unit balance issue. I'm praying that Blizzard really really tries to spur the map makers to come up with some balanced and well designed maps.
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