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Hello all, I did an analysis video about MMA's recent performance at Homestory cup, the TvZ matchup in particular. His exceptional qualities as a player in my opinion are his unit positioning & game plans that put him above other players in my eyes
Vod can be found here
Here is the order of the games and the styles each of the zergs played + Show Spoiler + 0:00 - 28:00 MMA vs Snute @ Orbital Shipyard vs Roach Ravager Infestor Style
28:30 - 40:53 MMA vs Nerchio @ Orbital Shipyard vs Ling Ravager fast hive Ultra style
41:27 - 53:00 MMA vs Nerchio @ Central Protocol vs Roach Ravager Timing
53:15 - 105:05 MMA vs Firecake @ Ruins of Seras vs 3base Roach Ling into muta roach ravager
Discussion Questions!
1) What do you think is the best way to deal with terran bio drops as a zerg player?
2) We saw a lot of infestor usage along with the Roach Ravager combinations. Is that the best support unit you can make for a roach ravager army?
3) Is there any role hydralisks/lurkers could play in the roach ravager army?
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1. Best way to play zerg is to start with zerglings and banelings and/or roaches ravagers and move into ultras, dropping is extremely hard if not impossible if zerg plays passive and is prepared for drops with lings and banes + spores and queens + overlord spread.
2. Infestor very good
3. Hydras can shoot medivacs so yes, and lurkers generally do alot of damage and tanks are immobile so yes.
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On December 22 2015 20:40 cop354g wrote: 1. Best way to play zerg is to start with zerglings and banelings and/or roaches ravagers and move into ultras, dropping is extremely hard if not impossible if zerg plays passive and is prepared for drops with lings and banes + spores and queens + overlord spread.
2. Infestor very good
3. Hydras can shoot medivacs so yes, and lurkers generally do alot of damage and tanks are immobile so yes. trade off between infestors and hydras/lurker tech? I feel like it would be difficult to obtain both in a timely manner unless you are ahead in the game
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France12466 Posts
About 1), would making some lurkers to defend drops at key spots be worth? Because I watched quite a lot of TvZ (not only MMA at homestory, haven't had the time to watch all of it) but in a few cases, the zerg was able to hold the drops fine but the terran kept doing it at different places and after some time the defense is finally not at the right spot, some damage is done and boom it snowballs more drops as effective and the zerg hasn't got enough to successfully tech to ultras (like not enough support, barely a fourth, the Terran is ahead in his composition or has enough to kill the zerg off).
I think that if some lurkers were hidden, the terrans would have so Few spots available that the mobile army would be sufficient and you would not get overwhelmed ; but I don't know if your main army would be strong enough or if you could transition easily out of it, probably not otherwise zergs would do it? Plus lurkers are a bit like static defense so it's better to defend with mobile army if possible.
The game illustrating this is I think TOP vs a zerg from his pool on the blue/night shaded map with a free expand.
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Unlike BW, Lurkers aren't really that great against marines with medivac support
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At least not until you have multiple ones where the AOE damage really starts adding up. What I noticed during HSC (finals, but also some others): Zerg can play roach ravager vs terran, but you need to be going for something which will kill the Terran, since in the end you will make errors handling drops.
And secondly, when you move out, you need to have a plan to deal with drops. Firecake for example often didn't deal well with it when he moved out, even when he had in theory enough units spawning/left behind to clear up a drop, he didn't have the multitasking to deal with it. If Firecake does not have it, the average Zerg here should probably wonder if he does have it. (Of course his opponents will also have less multitasking of course though). Imo you are either going to need static defense (which will not do more than delay the terran), or a squad of 5 corruptors or so. Then you can also keep your ovis out without a single viking killing them all.
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Roach/Hydra only seems to work if you either have awesome mechanics/hit a super crisp timing whilst flawlessly scouting and making great adjustments in your gas/unit production timings, or you have to play into Lurkers and be uber defensive and go for the late game.
Dealing with drops is very difficult without Mutalisks, that's why they have been a staple ZvT unit since...the game came out.
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I think an important thing to state here is that currently zergs for infestors to help stabilize until ultras come out. Can the same investment be used into lurkers, lurker drops, burrow roach drops, and being aggressive against terran instead of trying to create a deathball army and relying on infestor fungal to stabilize in the mid game?
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I watched the 1st half of the vod. From what I've seen so far the players made alot of mistakes. Nerchio vs MMA on central was probably the best one. He could have won if he didn't screw up a few small things. Still a good game.
If you go lurker you should probably not also go infestor. roach / ravager / ling > lurker is good for pressuring a 3rd if they tried to 2 base push you prior to that. ling / hydra / lurker is good on some maps with alot of distance and drops / vulnerable bases. Infestors are more all around useful in the lategame.
On December 23 2015 15:32 Merkmerk wrote: Unlike BW, Lurkers aren't really that great against marines with medivac support With plus 2 ranged 2 lurkers 1 shot marines with medivacs.
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Or you could just nydus, and win... haha
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Do +2 lurkers kill 3/3 marines in 2 shots? If so that changes things!
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On December 24 2015 07:28 crazedrat wrote:I watched the 1st half of the vod. From what I've seen so far the players made alot of mistakes. Nerchio vs MMA on central was probably the best one. He could have won if he didn't screw up a few small things. Still a good game. If you go lurker you should probably not also go infestor. roach / ravager / ling > lurker is good for pressuring a 3rd if they tried to 2 base push you prior to that. ling / hydra / lurker is good on some maps with alot of distance and drops / vulnerable bases. Infestors are more all around useful in the lategame. Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 15:32 Merkmerk wrote: Unlike BW, Lurkers aren't really that great against marines with medivac support With plus 2 ranged 2 lurkers 1 shot marines with medivacs. hindsight is always 20/20. I think MMA did a good job of exploiting these mistakes with his solid gameplay, he wasn't specifically trying to exploit anything, rather he was just following his game plan and that happened to account for weaknesses in the zerg's play
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On December 24 2015 11:24 Merkmerk wrote: Do +2 lurkers kill 3/3 marines in 2 shots? If so that changes things! Well actually I miscalculated, my bad, they do less against light than armored so no 3 shots
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Yo EJK,
You're probably already doing it, but could you do an episode on TY vs Soulkey on Dusk Towers? I learned so much from watching that match and the way TY played it made so much sense that it must be the new way to play lategame TvZ. It would be cool to have a discussion about it in a thread like this one. I would love to hear your analysis anyway .
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On December 24 2015 23:32 Bojas wrote:Yo EJK, You're probably already doing it, but could you do an episode on TY vs Soulkey on Dusk Towers? I learned so much from watching that match and the way TY played it made so much sense that it must be the new way to play lategame TvZ. It would be cool to have a discussion about it in a thread like this one. I would love to hear your analysis anyway .
I think the problem with this game is Soulkey forgot/didn't make Vipers.
Maybe I am wrong, but hey I won't mind more work from EJK :p
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On December 25 2015 01:00 wjat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 23:32 Bojas wrote:Yo EJK, You're probably already doing it, but could you do an episode on TY vs Soulkey on Dusk Towers? I learned so much from watching that match and the way TY played it made so much sense that it must be the new way to play lategame TvZ. It would be cool to have a discussion about it in a thread like this one. I would love to hear your analysis anyway . I think the problem with this game is Soulkey forgot/didn't make Vipers. Maybe I am wrong, but hey I won't mind more work from EJK :p Well sure Soulkey did a billion things wrong in all aspects of the game. I'd rather look at what TY did well that other Terrans weren't doing before.
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On December 24 2015 23:32 Bojas wrote:Yo EJK, You're probably already doing it, but could you do an episode on TY vs Soulkey on Dusk Towers? I learned so much from watching that match and the way TY played it made so much sense that it must be the new way to play lategame TvZ. It would be cool to have a discussion about it in a thread like this one. I would love to hear your analysis anyway . LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
I did that yesterday. Then i uploaded it. And the video only took up a 4th of the screen
Redoing it today...
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