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I don't recall whose build this was or where he showed it (Parting, maybe, at Blizzcon?). I saw ToD stream it within the last month, as well. My notes call it a proxy 10/12 gate, 1 zealot/2 stalker rush. I don't think it is new but I just found it on the ladder for the first time.
BO:
+ Show Spoiler +
10 - proxy pylon
10 - proxy gateway
12 - assimilator
12 - proxy cyber core
12 - zealot
14 - 2x stalker (chrono)
Poke with zealot and probe. Proxy high-ground pylon at 18 for ramp vision.
http://drop.sc/368907/d
Here is me failing miserably at the hands of some smurf. This dude was laddering with the build exclusively and was unwilling to talk to me about it. I accidentally pull my probe right before it builds my 24 pylon so I supply block and die. Regardless, my best case here would be 1 zealot, 1 stalker, and a MSC with no energy against his 1 zealot and 2 stalkers. Assuming no casualties, I'd be to 2 zealots, 2 stalkers, and a MSC with time warp against his 1 zealot and 4 stalkers.
Now, how on earth do you stop it? I rarely beat the proxy 10/10 zealot rush let alone this gas variation. I'd love to see a replay where this build is defended successfully.
I used to open with a 12-gate then double gas at 15, 2x probes in each. I believe that yields 150 gas @ 100% cyber core. I've since switched to 12-gate then single gas at 15, which yields 100 gas @ cyber core. Is that the problem? I switched because my 1st base saturation speed in ggtracker was always bronze with the double gas.
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Somebody's asked how to fend off this cheese a couple of days ago in the protoss help me thread recently. You should definitely check it out. I've pretty much posted all my thoughts there, so I won't repeat myself. However, if you have any further questions, feel free to ask.
Regarding builds, 12 gate is suboptimal because you can't spend your second chrono right away and need to cut probes briefly. So I advise going 13 gate instead. Double gas at 15 with 4 probes on gas is pretty standard (going up to 6 on gas once your cybernetics core is done). You can also go 14 gas and start your second assimilator right after your cybernetics core (6 probes on gas asap), which provides you with just as much gas without delaying your cybernetics core for a few seconds (as long as you actually don't gateway scout). To be honest, either way is fine. If you do the latter and gateway scout, it delays your second assimilator for a little bit, and therefore you get slightly less gas than former approach. But as long as you do one of these 2 things, you should be fine. Nobody stays on 1 gas until their cybernetics is finished, this only happens if you're doing a gateway all in.
If you want practice games to learn how to hold off this build, feel free to add me (vhapter #721).
EDIT: watched your replay. Not getting another geyser was definitely a mistake, because you couldn't make stalkers continuously. Zealots will simply not work against this build in the situation you were. I've only lost to zealots once, and that's because my opponent scouted my build early enough to skip basically everything else (including geysers and cybercore) and got 2-3 gateways up to spam zealots nonstop with just 16 probes. Oh, and don't suicide your msc.
EDIT 2: now that I think about it, I think having a single gas may be ok against this build, since that means getting a second gate up earlier. However, besides skipping wg, you'd also have to skip your msc, otherwise you won't be able to make stalkers. I'm not sure whether skipping your second gas is the better call here, but that's probably one of the least important questions. Holding off this build doesn't come down to that at all imo.
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I think something we forget when watching pros ladder is to scout. Scout on 9 pylon my friend, it's still the optimal way to play the game imo.
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If you scout it, you should be fine since you can just mirror him with better economy. The thing with that proxy is you really have to identify it has Stalkers instead of being pure Zealot. If you do that you cannot really lose considering you should have roughly equal units and you can use your Probes to defend if needed. Don't bother getting MSC against this one, just make Zealot + Stalkers just like your opponent and it should be held.
~ Watched your replay
- You scouted his empty base + 1 gas. That is a huge indicator of this build. The only other option is he is hiding his Gate/Cyber in/near his base to confuse you. Anyway, it tells you at the very least it is NOT Zealot only.
- I think you Chrono'd Probes on your Nexus after you scouted this. Better save the Chrono for units.
- Do not make an early MSC. The build you face has early Stalkers which just shoot it down, like you experienced ^_^
- You had +- 18 Probes vs 12. Better economy, weaker army = defend. Just Chrono out your own Stalkers, stay around your mineral line and defend the initial push where he has more stuff with your Probes if need be. You have more anyway so you can lose a few if really necessary.
- Also, don't block your own gas with a Pylon, it limited your gas intake quite heavily I think. Though surely you didn't do this on purpose 
Basically; if you just make Stalkers instead of MSC and do not attack him (you walked towards your ramp, just stay close to Nexus), I think you should be fine considering you have way more income. Also you might want to scout a bit more thoroughly for proxies. You just peeked at the right of your base but it doesn't hurt that much to check natural + likely spot near base.
Good luck with future games!
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On December 25 2013 18:10 JeanLuc wrote:
I think something we forget when watching pros ladder is to scout. Scout on 9 pylon my friend, it's still the optimal way to play the game imo.
He gateway scouted, which is more than enough to hold off this build, so stop spreading bad advice. Pylon scouting sucks in PvP unless your goal is to steal your opponent's gas. Even gateway scouting takes a toll on your economy. Pylon scouting makes you lose a full minute of mining time when you could simply look for proxies instead.
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What really makes the defense difficult is the thin margin for error. While I don't know if 9 or 12 scout is better, I think recognizing the fast gas with no structures is the key. I saw the fast gas in time (I think), but chose the wrong solution. I always scout for proxys but there is just no way scout all the spots and I certainly missed his. You can see I check in my base and around the perimeter (twice actually), and in my natural, but I can as easily scout the wrong 3rd and miss the actual structures.
All I found in the Protoss help thread were hints that he will eventually be unable to afford stalkers. I didn't see an actual response to the build, sorry. To summarize the help thread, "defend because you have a better economy and fewer units and eventually you can take a fight".
As to the proper solution, it sounds like getting faster gas is preferred, but may not be absolutely necessary. Getting a fast 2nd gateway is still right? Either gas should afford 2 stalkers when the core pops, theoretically. With a zealot only rush, the MSC is key but when scouting this build I should skip the MSC?
I'd love a replay with a hold.
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On December 25 2013 22:39 JonIrenicus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2013 21:43 vhapter wrote:On December 25 2013 18:10 JeanLuc wrote:
I think something we forget when watching pros ladder is to scout. Scout on 9 pylon my friend, it's still the optimal way to play the game imo.
He gateway scouted, which is more than enough to hold off this build, so stop spreading bad advice. Pylon scouting sucks in PvP unless your goal is to steal your opponent's gas. Even gateway scouting takes a toll on your economy. Pylon scouting makes you lose a full minute of mining time when you could simply look for proxies instead. watch out, we got a badass top 10 KR Grandmaster telling that it's bad advice Holy fuck, would you kindly read well and read that it was HIS OPINION? Good.
It's not about opinions, it's about logic. There are only two ways to understand if your opponent is proxying gateways before zealot(s) show up:
A) scouting his own base;
B) scouting proxy locations around your base.
It's clear that B) is the optimal choice since you have to travel far less with your probe, which equals less wasted mining time.
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On December 25 2013 22:39 JonIrenicus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2013 21:43 vhapter wrote:On December 25 2013 18:10 JeanLuc wrote:
I think something we forget when watching pros ladder is to scout. Scout on 9 pylon my friend, it's still the optimal way to play the game imo.
He gateway scouted, which is more than enough to hold off this build, so stop spreading bad advice. Pylon scouting sucks in PvP unless your goal is to steal your opponent's gas. Even gateway scouting takes a toll on your economy. Pylon scouting makes you lose a full minute of mining time when you could simply look for proxies instead. watch out, we got a badass top 10 KR Grandmaster telling that it's bad advice Holy fuck, would you kindly read well and read that it was HIS OPINION? Good.
Sorry, I agree that was a bit harsh. I suppose I could use some kindness when I offer advice. However, his opinion didn't address the main issues the op has. In fact, his post could even make the OP second guess his own scouting pattern and opt for something worse. I don't mean to offend anyone, it's just that I think it's important to clear up misinformation when I see it as such.
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This is my replay with a hold http://drop.sc/368943
I think this is a good build order, double gas is necessary (2 probes each, not more) so that you can afford to build only stalkers while he will build stalkers and zealots. Cut probes at 16.
This is the build order:
18 core
18 zealot
18 2nd gateway
(as soon as the core completes) 20 stalker, 22 mothership core
double stalker when the 2nd gate completes.
Basically you have 1 zealot + 1 stalker + 1 msc + probes when he has 1 zealot + 2 stalkers, it's not bad if you save your mothership core. Photon overcharge will buy you more time to increase your stalker count while he is forced to build zealots.
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gateway scout has a very tough time against fast proxy 2 gate zealots, which I do every pvp game, really it's all about being safe vs your ability to outplay him later on, so if you're confident in your macro then nothing really wrong with early scouting since so many people cheese in pvp ladder games.
proxy 2 gate always loses against a perfect response, i think this 2 stalker variation is even weaker because it obviously requires a cybercore which widens the income gap further. even 2-3 zealots can hold him off until you get your own stalkers up, since stalkers kill zealots really, really slowly. however, dumping 100 gas into an msc is obviously useless.
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On December 25 2013 23:56 shadymmj wrote:
gateway scout has a very tough time against fast proxy 2 gate zealots, which I do every pvp game, really it's all about being safe vs your ability to outplay him later on, so if you're confident in your macro then nothing really wrong with early scouting since so many people cheese in pvp ladder games.
proxy 2 gate always loses against a perfect response, i think this 2 stalker variation is even weaker because it obviously requires a cybercore which widens the income gap further. even 2-3 zealots can hold him off until you get your own stalkers up, since stalkers kill zealots really, really slowly. however, dumping 100 gas into an msc is obviously useless.
It's not useless when you have spare money to build it. If you have 2 assimilators with 2 probes each you have 150 gas once the core completes, so 100 with the stalker, then either you spend those 100 in a msc or in warpgate, which is useless to hold the all in. And you'll still have 100 gas once the 2nd gate completes to build 2 stalkers.
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On December 25 2013 23:18 justnny wrote:
What really makes the defense difficult is the thin margin for error. While I don't know if 9 or 12 scout is better, I think recognizing the fast gas with no structures is the key. I saw the fast gas in time (I think), but chose the wrong solution. I always scout for proxys but there is just no way scout all the spots and I certainly missed his. You can see I check in my base and around the perimeter (twice actually), and in my natural, but I can as easily scout the wrong 3rd and miss the actual structures.
All I found in the Protoss help thread were hints that he will eventually be unable to afford stalkers. I didn't see an actual response to the build, sorry. To summarize the help thread, "defend because you have a better economy and fewer units and eventually you can take a fight".
As to the proper solution, it sounds like getting faster gas is preferred, but may not be absolutely necessary. Getting a fast 2nd gateway is still right? Either gas should afford 2 stalkers when the core pops, theoretically. With a zealot only rush, the MSC is key but when scouting this build I should skip the MSC?
I'd love a replay with a hold.
Your scouting is just fine. Upon seeing nothing but a single geyser, you should know exactly what's up. If your opponent proxies his gateways anywhere else, it will take longer for his units to reach your base, so you should be ok.
Basically, you should be able to outmicro your opponent with ranged units + probes.
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On December 25 2013 18:10 JeanLuc wrote:
I think something we forget when watching pros ladder is to scout. Scout on 9 pylon my friend, it's still the optimal way to play the game imo.
"9 pylon scout" and "optimal" do not go in the same sentence.
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I found out another build which might be the best one against 10/12 proxy gates.
It's a reactive opening which assumes you gateway scouted the proxies before you start your 2nd assimilator.
Build order:
16 - 2nd gate (cut probes)
16 - core ~ 2:45
16 - 2nd gas (2 probes in each gas once it completes)
Zealot (chrono) ~ 3:00
18/18 - 2nd Pylon ~ 3:10
The pylon should finish together with the core, so that at ~3:35 you have enough supply and resources to build 2 stalkers and chrono both of them.
Basically you have the zealot+ 2 stalkers at the same time as he does (due to rush distance). However the strength is that you have 2 gases so you will be able to build 2 more stalkers immediately once the first 2 are completed (26/26 supply); your opponent instead needs to wait for his 2nd pylon to finish and he still won't be able to build 2 stalkers because he is only on one gas.
At ~4:50 you have 4 stalkers (if you didn't lose them) ready to start 2 more, and you can even add warpgate at around 4:30 while maintaining constant stalker production.
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On December 25 2013 23:22 KingAlphard wrote:
It's not about opinions, it's about logic. There are only two ways to understand if your opponent is proxying gateways before zealot(s) show up:
A) scouting his own base;
B) scouting proxy locations around your base.
It's clear that B) is the optimal choice since you have to travel far less with your probe, which equals less wasted mining time.
Pylon scout is a garanteed way to secure urself a hold against ANY kind of early cheese: proxy 2gate zealot/proxy stalkers/ canon rush. While scouting for proxies is based on luck to a certain extent:you could miss a proxy or misread it. For example seeing a proxy gate in construction wont give u 100% proof of waht is coming: is it a zealot or a stalker/zealot rush. On top of this, scouting for proxies denies mining time as well. And if u scout all possible locations, i dont rly see that much of a differense.
Anywayz. I strongly recommend to do a pylon scout when u r not confident enough in your responses to any early cheese play. Because in that case every second counts. The early you scout the faster your reaction is.
Why dont GMs scout?
1). they think they can defend any agression with their eyes closed (and lots of times it turns out they die to it anyway) 2). Such builds are uncommon on higher levels 3) cutting edges 4) laziness 5) pros play it ballzy style 6) GMs dont care about ladder loses.
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On December 27 2013 16:16 insitelol wrote:
Why dont GMs scout?
1). they think they can defend any agression with their eyes closed (and lots of times it turns out they die to it anyway) 2). Such builds are uncommon on higher levels 3) cutting edges 4) laziness 5) pros play it ballzy style 6) GMs dont care about ladder loses.
The extra minerals is nice. I know I used to skip scouting with certain builds to hit really tight timings. If you don't scout and your opponent does, and you don't get a disadvantage of not early game scouting then you're now slightly ahead.
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On December 27 2013 16:16 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2013 23:22 KingAlphard wrote:
It's not about opinions, it's about logic. There are only two ways to understand if your opponent is proxying gateways before zealot(s) show up:
A) scouting his own base;
B) scouting proxy locations around your base.
It's clear that B) is the optimal choice since you have to travel far less with your probe, which equals less wasted mining time.
Pylon scout is a garanteed way to secure urself a hold against ANY kind of early cheese: proxy 2gate zealot/proxy stalkers/ canon rush. While scouting for proxies is based on luck to a certain extent:you could miss a proxy or misread it. For example seeing a proxy gate in construction wont give u 100% proof of waht is coming: is it a zealot or a stalker/zealot rush. On top of this, scouting for proxies denies mining time as well. And if u scout all possible locations, i dont rly see that much of a differense. Anywayz. I strongly recommend to do a pylon scout when u r not confident enough in your responses to any early cheese play. Because in that case every second counts. The early you scout the faster your reaction is. Why dont GMs scout? 1). they think they can defend any agression with their eyes closed (and lots of times it turns out they die to it anyway) 2). Such builds are uncommon on higher levels 3) cutting edges 4) laziness 5) pros play it ballzy style 6) GMs dont care about ladder loses.
I can agree that sometimes (but it is rare) you can miss the proxies. However it's easy to tell whether it is zealot/stalker or zealot only, you just need to check the timings of the gates, if the 2nd is delayed by about 30 seconds you know he had to spend money in an assimilator.
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On December 27 2013 16:16 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2013 23:22 KingAlphard wrote:
It's not about opinions, it's about logic. There are only two ways to understand if your opponent is proxying gateways before zealot(s) show up:
A) scouting his own base;
B) scouting proxy locations around your base.
It's clear that B) is the optimal choice since you have to travel far less with your probe, which equals less wasted mining time.
Pylon scout is a garanteed way to secure urself a hold against ANY kind of early cheese: proxy 2gate zealot/proxy stalkers/ canon rush. While scouting for proxies is based on luck to a certain extent:you could miss a proxy or misread it. For example seeing a proxy gate in construction wont give u 100% proof of waht is coming: is it a zealot or a stalker/zealot rush. On top of this, scouting for proxies denies mining time as well. And if u scout all possible locations, i dont rly see that much of a differense. Anywayz. I strongly recommend to do a pylon scout when u r not confident enough in your responses to any early cheese play. Because in that case every second counts. The early you scout the faster your reaction is. Why dont GMs scout? 1). they think they can defend any agression with their eyes closed (and lots of times it turns out they die to it anyway) 2). Such builds are uncommon on higher levels 3) cutting edges 4) laziness 5) pros play it ballzy style 6) GMs dont care about ladder loses.
You can easily know whether it's a regular proxy 2 gate zealots or a 1 zealot 2 stalker rush based on the timing of the second gateway. Simply put, the only reason you might misread these strategies is not knowing what they look like. Sending a 13 scout to look for proxies means you don't have to delay probes, chrono, or your gateway at all.
If you're not confident in your response to cheese, pylon scouting won't make you improve your defense. It's not a matter of knowing that you have to do something, but rather knowing what to do.
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On December 27 2013 23:05 vhapter wrote:
You can easily know whether it's a regular proxy 2 gate zealots or a 1 zealot 2 stalker rush based on the timing of the second gateway. Simply put, the only reason you might misread these strategies is not knowing what they look like. Sending a 13 scout to look for proxies means you don't have to delay probes, chrono, or your gateway at all.
If you're not confident in your response to cheese, pylon scouting won't make you improve your defense. It's not a matter of knowing that you have to do something, but rather knowing what to do.
This was exactly my problem here. I knew something was coming, but didn't know how to recognize it and how to react appropriately.
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EPT
