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United States4883 Posts
Been trying to reformat my PvZ from phoenix -> 3rd -> colossus because I don't care much for phoenix/colossus. I have a friend who is absolutely fanatic about sOs's version of skytoss, so I decided to go ahead and give it a go. For the most part, this build revolves around getting a bunch of void rays early on to defend a very fast 3rd nexus and then transitions primarily into zealot/templar. Here's the build order:
FFE version:
+ Show Spoiler +16 nexus
17 forge
18 pylon
18 gateway
**Chronoboost x2 on nexus**
19 cannon
21 double gas
22 core
**Chronoboost x3 on natural nexus**
31 zealot
31 pylon
35 stargate
35 warpgate
37 double gas
37 pylon
@5:30 stargate (before sentry)
@5:30 natural gases
From gateway: zealot/sentry/sentry
From stargate: phoenix x1 -> void ray x8
@7:00-8:00 take 3rd
@7:30 -> MsC (~44 probes)
@8:30 add 2 stargates
@8:30 start +1 attack/+1 air attack
@9:00 gases at 3rd
@10:00 twilight + extra gates
@100% twilight -> templar archives
Gateway Expand Version (with forge):
+ Show Spoiler +9 pylon
**Chronoboost x4 on nexus**
13 gate
15 double gas
**2 in each gas**
17 pylon
18 core
21 zealot (cancel)
23 MsC
23 nexus
23 pylon
25 stargate (@4:30)
28 sentry
28 pylon
29 warpgate
30 forge
33 gate
From stargate: phoenix x2 -> void ray x9
From gateway(s): sentry -> sentry x2 later
@6:30 take natural gases
@8:00 take 3rd + start warpgate
@9:00 add 2 stargates, +1 attack
@10:00 gases at 3rd
@11:00 twilight + extra gates
Gateway Expand Version (Naniwa no-forge version):
+ Show Spoiler +9 pylon
**Chronoboost x3**
13 gate
15 double gas
**2 in each gas**
17 pylon (at natural)
18 core
21 zealot (cancel)
21 warpgate
21 nexus
23 MsC
23 pylon
*probe scout
25 zealot
28 stargate (@5:00)
30 gate x2
32 sentry
38 phoenix
38 pylon
44 phoenix
From stargate: phoenix x2 -> void ray x8
@6:30 natural gases
@8:00 take 3rd
@8:30 add 2 stargates
@8:45 +1 air attack
@10:00 gases at 3rd
@12:00 extra gates
Small note: Naniwa does a warpin round or two before taking his 3rd to ensure safety
This is a pretty strong build that allows you to take a wickedly fast 3rd. You want to go up to a critical number of void rays (8-10) and stop void ray production so you can afford to get storm/charge up in time to deal with mass hydra/ling timings. Some hydra/ling timings hit earlier; to hold those, just use good forcefields and choke points. You also generally have a constant excess of minerals once your 3rd is down, so cannons are also viable for defending.
The initial phoenix(es) are used to clear out overlords around your base and near your 3rd and can almost always force a zerg to make blind spore crawlers. Afterwards, you should be using the phoenix to constantly scout your opponent. Big things you're looking for are: gas saturation, presence of 4th and 5th bases, hive timings, army composition, and single vs. double evo.
sOs sometimes does a void ray poke with MsC to try and snipe fast hives/outlying expansions. If you're opponent is playing very passively and doesn't make many hydras, this move is almost always a success. Just clear out spotting overlords with phoenixes, move the void rays across, and recall once you've sniped the hatchery/hive.
Against muta/corruptor, just start phoenix production and add on a fleet beacon. Again, you'll have an excess of minerals so you can put down cannons in your mineral lines and you can afford to do zealot harassment (since you also have a large number of gateways as well). Overall, this is one of the better builds against muta/corruptor.
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United States4883 Posts
I'm pretty sure my "Naniwa no-forge" version came from that game (or at least that series) lol.
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What do you think its the best version of that style? I am using the FFE version but i am wondering if the other 2 ones are better. 
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How about do a carrier transition?
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United States4883 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:20 TheHoHo wrote:What do you think its the best version of that style? I am using the FFE version but i am wondering if the other 2 ones are better.
It depends. Obviously the FFE version is going to get you the best economy possible and really skyrocket you into the mid game, but you don't get any kind of aggressive options. The other two builds, and especially Naniwa's variant, are a lot more flexible too and allow for more options. Also, FFE is pretty predictable while 1-gate FEs are a little more difficult for the zerg player to scout and react to.
On October 01 2013 06:28 a176 wrote:
How about do a carrier transition?
You don't want to do carriers anytime early in the game (unless you're rushing for them, but that's a whole other story) or you'll straight up die to mass hydra timings. It's possible to transition into carriers later in the game once you get a 4th base, but ideally you only want 2-3 for DPS in your endgame army. It's too easy for them to get pulled and sniped and tempests are just better for their cost.
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If he goes for a big muta play, do you have time to get storm out? Ive always understood reactionary phoenix to be bad against dedicated muta play.
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^ You just need to scout the spire with hallucinated phoenix and go into ranged phoenix. With 2-3 stargates, you should be able to get a decent amount of phoenixes out as long as you scout early enough. 10:00+ is a fairly reliable time to spot what composition the zerg is going for. You won't need to worry about storm that early, because storm doesn't cut it for defense against mutas anymore. Getting suprised by mutas is often times deadly. If the zerg player sends a small pack of mutas, voids can deal with them just fine... but if he gets a decent muta count and doesn't throw them away, then it sucks for you.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 02 2013 18:46 vhapter wrote:
^ You just need to scout the spire with hallucinated phoenix and go into ranged phoenix. With 2-3 stargates, you should be able to get a decent amount of phoenixes out as long as you scout early enough. 10:00+ is a fairly reliable time to spot what composition the zerg is going for. You won't need to worry about storm that early, because storm doesn't cut it for defense against mutas anymore. Getting suprised by mutas is often times deadly. If the zerg player sends a small pack of mutas, voids can deal with them just fine... but if he gets a decent muta count and doesn't throw them away, then it sucks for you.
I might also add that you generally float a ton of minerals ~10:00 anyway, so if you spot mutas you can always throw down 2-3 cannons in each of your mineral lines to buy time for phoenixes.
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Italy12248 Posts
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from my understanding reactionary phoneix is mainly bad because, in the time you need to throw down the extra stargate production - you will take too much damage and die - followed the addition of corruptors, which then kill the few phoenix you have . Since you already have voids this should work a lot better .
3 base protoss with 3 stargates and closing in on storm tech is terrifying for muta players.
I also have a question with this build - Its obviously a very defensive build, relying on getting a costly army to kill your opponent.
has anyone thought of making a 4th nexus (with the excess of minerals) near your front, (especially on maps like derelict watcher where theres only one big area to defend for your natural and third) which you can of course overcharge, extra chronoboost, and it takes a lot of damage.
I'd be interested on hearing some thoughts on this.
Edit, consider that a nexus only costs as much as two cannons, since you also save a pylon
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This is the only thing that I can even get to work vs Zerg so props for doing a thread on it... sometimes I feel like I have to get high templar before I get the 2nd and 3rd stargate though, is that alright?
i like to get a 4th and a few carriers and usually they cant stop it at that point
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^ I think staying on a single stargate is not so good, but I always stay on 2 stargates for quite a while. Imo the third stargate is not worth it and delays storm/charge for too long if you get +1 ground/air attack (or air attack and shields).
What I've been doing lately to optimize this style is take a third off of a single zealot (zealot scouts third along with probe, then expand right away). With the greediest version of this build (which skips a probe scout to be able to go 16 nexus 17 pylon 17 forge to make probes like nuts, and gets third nexus before a second gas), I was able to get 66 probes super early (9:30 iirc) and 189 supply by 13:10 - with +1 air/ground attack, probably shields, storm, zealots, voids, etc. Instead of adding your last gateways by 11:00, you build your last gateways (up to 10 before maxing out without floating on minerals) at about 10 minutes. This way, you max out like a whole minute earlier than if you take your third after your initial stargate. I also start storm before the 11 min mark with a faster third, which is great.
The exact time you end up taking your third depends on how many corners you cut early on. The greediest version I do allows for a 5:30 third, but you're more likely to take it at 5:50-6:00 or something if you don't cut as many corners.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 10 2013 01:56 vhapter wrote:
^ I think staying on a single stargate is not so good, but I always stay on 2 stargates for quite a while. Imo the third stargate is not worth it and delays storm/charge for too long if you get +1 ground/air attack (or air attack and shields).
What I've been doing lately to optimize this style is take a third off of a single zealot (zealot scouts third along with probe, then expand right away). With the greediest version of this build (which skips a probe scout to be able to go 16 nexus 17 pylon 17 forge to make probes like nuts, and gets third nexus before a second gas), I was able to get 66 probes super early (9:30 iirc) and 189 supply by 13:10 - with +1 air/ground attack, probably shields, storm, zealots, voids, etc. Instead of adding your last gateways by 11:00, you build your last gateways (up to 10 before maxing out without floating on minerals) at about 10 minutes. This way, you max out like a whole minute earlier than if you take your third after your initial stargate. I also start storm before the 11 min mark with a faster third, which is great.
The exact time you end up taking your third depends on how many corners you cut early on. The greediest version I do allows for a 5:30 third, but you're more likely to take it at 5:50-6:00 or something if you don't cut as many corners.
To be honest, most players just go up to 8-9 void rays and halt production, so I agree that a 3rd stargate is a little unnecessary. All it really does is save you a single production cycle while delaying your other tech (storm/charge) quite a bit. As far as going single stargate into a 3rd into storm goes, I think you open yourself up to certain attacks and 2-base all-ins simply because you won't have enough voids to deal with it.
I'm not fully convinced the 3rd before stargate is a good option against an aggressive zerg. But, for ladder purposes, you can probably get away with it a majority of the time on 4-player maps and maybe even some 2-player maps (like Bel'Shir Vestige).
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Most zergs go 3 hatch before gas against FFE, which means you can safely get a cannon up at your third and simcity it before zergling speed comes into play. By the time a standard 3 hatch build has speed, you can have your third up, 3 gateways, and photon overcharge ready for defense. That's plenty of stuff to defend your third.
If the zerg player goes hatch gas pool or something along these lines, then taking a third base becomes riskier for obvious reasons. Now, even if the zerg player went hatch gas pool, I'm not sure how viable/effective it is to go for a reactive burst in speedling production upon scouting a fast third. It sucks when you have to readapt your build because your nexus got canceled, but the zerg has to delay his economy to be able to take down your nexus anyway while you're not cutting probe production at all.
You know there's no need to delay your second gas or not scout at all to take a fast third. All you need to do is scout early on if you're afraid of early ling speed. If you're really scared, you might want to get 2 cannons at your third instead of a single one. I used to get 2 cannons at my third all the time when I went stargate into third nexus.
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EPT
