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Hi everyone,
I'm struggling really badly against non aggressive terrans in the TvT matchup, and often get frustrated cus I don't know if I'm improving, am I ahead, can I expand without dying to his scouting information and his timing push. Most of my games looks like I'm going to contain him into 2 base then he breaks out and he will contain me on 3 or 4 bases and he just puts turrets near the tank line and goes right on me after he sees I'm low on tanks. I prefer bio play but lot of times I get into mech play cus I'm forced to defend vs tank positions. Lot of times I get into a situation where nobody can do anything about his opponents tank positions, air control, or sniping bases, even drops not viable because a lot of turrets everywhere in his bases. I've tried to go banshee bio play but thor tank hellbat just shuts down, even viking hellbat tank.
http://ggtracker.com/matches/3867497
http://ggtracker.com/matches/3867492
http://ggtracker.com/matches/3850261
I don't think my macro was slipped, my micro managment was decent all the time, but my opponent has too much, maybe my production facilities were too few. There were games where I played mech vs bio but I don't struggle with it, most of the time I win with just the same 2 base contain with ForGG's tvt.
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Simple, go bc. Whenever i open agressive and force my enemy terran to go turtle mode to recover, i go for fast bcs. a turtle terran will go heavy tank and static defense, BC own both of those and if you can macro properly you can get 3/3 ship upgrades pretty easy meaning even mass bio will melt against a large number of bcs, once he sees it start viking production to defeat his vikings and maintain air superiority
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Game 1 - Hellions are great in TvT for small skirmishes and for running around to spot bases and kill workers, etc., but they're not as good as hellbats in straight-up engagements. He was able to unsiege and a-move into your little tank line and obliterate all your stuff because your hellions don't tank nearly as well as his hellbats do. If your style is to get up and sort of make that tank wall at your opponent's base, I'd recommend hellbats instead of hellions. You're not gaining anything from the superior mobility when they're just chilling there with your tanks, but your tanks do need buffering. Other things I'd say... I love to mix in a few ravens with that style, ESPECIALLY once you have such dominant air control like you did. You made a ton of vikings, but he didn't even try to contest your air control, so you weren't able to do much with it. Ravens can HSM tanks wonderfully, and they fit in perfectly with the late game air transition into BC/Viking/Raven. I also noticed that you were starting to just place a few tanks here and a few tanks there way on the opponent's side of the map. 2 tanks sieged up alone can be scooped up rather easily. I recommend either sending out legit task forces (2-3 tanks and a handful of hellbats... or just hellbats/hellions) if you want to hard pressure bases, but leaving a few tanks lying around will just be free lunch for a meching terran. If you're always going mass hellion and straight up engaging his army, that's likely the reason why you're struggling. Also, all that supply invested in useless vikings... Hope that helps, don't have time to check out the other 2 games right now.
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Thanks a lot, I'll keep in mind the fast bc if i see a lot of tanks early on and the turtle style. Nowdays I tried to play no tank style but didn't worked out well as I expected. By watching MMA vs Happy series I noticed the timings where should I transition and when should I take the 4th base before the turtle player does. Also I tried to go for multiple drops/runbys with hellions but seems they are putting so much turrets so I can't do anything about them, only way is force them into a trap and win with 1 big fight which is annoying me a little bit.
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On August 16 2013 15:22 AlaxWayLaxed wrote:
Simple, go bc. Whenever i open agressive and force my enemy terran to go turtle mode to recover, i go for fast bcs. a turtle terran will go heavy tank and static defense, BC own both of those and if you can macro properly you can get 3/3 ship upgrades pretty easy meaning even mass bio will melt against a large number of bcs, once he sees it start viking production to defeat his vikings and maintain air superiority
Wow i never had thought of that. I'm gonna have to try this as well.
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I'd appreciate it if you labelled your replays next time so we know what to watch for in each match; I wasn't even sure which of the two players was you in the first game since I was expecting a mech vs bio play and they were both mech.
In games 1 and 3 you both went mech and I thought you macroed ok but the other guy just meched better than you. You're violating a couple of fundamental rules of mech, which is why it's not really working well for you:
1) Not enough tanks and/or split up tanks. This isn't broodwar; 3 tanks doesn't make a contain (or an adequate defence). In the first game especially you kept on losing pockets of tanks here and there while he marched around with a single deathball.
2) Not enough meat shield. Other times you had only tanks, which is a very very expensive ball to lose. Hellbats are a much better meatshield than hellions, especially with medivacs overhead (which you need anyway for mobility and hellbat harass). When you're breaking a contain, you need something beefy but cheap to walk out and die while your tanks siege in range of his tanks. If you try to break out with just tanks, you basically lose the front line before they can even siege up.
3) No spotter. You always have to move some hellions or vikings (or barracks) ahead of your army when you're moving across the map or you won't siege in time.
4) No engineering squad. Always bring like 8 scv's with you when you move out so you can repair, build turrets, etc.
As for the bio game, pure bio is very, very unforgiving against mech, or even biomech. At the very least you have to drop two locations at the same time, otherwise it's very easy for the mech player to defend. Single drops at a time get shut down by vikings and medivac/hellbats. If you notice that he's turtling so hard that you literally can't boost in through turrets, then you should just get the air army he's going for before he does.
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On August 16 2013 15:22 AlaxWayLaxed wrote:
Simple, go bc. Whenever i open agressive and force my enemy terran to go turtle mode to recover, i go for fast bcs. a turtle terran will go heavy tank and static defense, BC own both of those and if you can macro properly you can get 3/3 ship upgrades pretty easy meaning even mass bio will melt against a large number of bcs, once he sees it start viking production to defeat his vikings and maintain air superiority
I feel like the problem with going for fast BCs is that if they are scouted when you only have a few you're going to lose. I just finished playing a TvT where I went straight for cloak banshee but it was scouted and he got a raven/ vikings out to defend. Then I made a stupid attack with a couple tanks and marines and was really far behind, but I had three orbitals soon after that attack. Managed to land a scan and scouted the BCs, so I just threw down a bunch of barracks and started getting air upgrades and producing vikings which allowed me to crush his army. It seems like if you scout BCs you can just mass expand and mass produce marine + viking and use your mobility to contain him. Sensor towers help a lot with allowing you to know where his army is at all times.
I was in a bit of a different situation because I was aggressive and forced to turtle for a while, but after the early game it seems like I was in a similar situation. The main thing about turtling is that the player turtling has to be really efficient as long as you have a lot more expansions. You can afford to throw away a bunch of units for a few tanks, whereas he can't. Getting rid of scvs so you can have a larger army supply helps too.
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EPT
