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[D][G] ZvP - 3 base into fast Ultra/Hydra/Viper

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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SK
Profile Joined January 2012
France11 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-19 04:03:00
March 23 2013 12:35 GMT
#1
Hi people, I am a high (fighting 40/60 against master and diam) diamond HOTS Zerg and was the same in WoL. Using only this build in ZvP, I am, this season, at a 72% winrate against protoss.

I do know people tend to trash builds posted by "scrubs" like me, but I am not offering this build as "it's the way to do it" but as a schematic that need tuning. And I understand that many of my wins are against people who are still using WoL standards to HoTS. So; I honestly have no idea if it works in higher level matches and I do not pretend it does, but at my level i think it is ridiculously strong and that it need to be shared. Anyway, It is written as a guide mainly because it's the way of describing it that I am the most comfortable with. Thank you for your understanding

I am open to suggestions, ideas, counters and so on.
(that's why I am writing it in the first place after all)

ZvP build with no Infestors and no broodlords. The following BO is against a 'standard' FFE. Check below the build for details against other FE builds.

------------------
Nom Nom Nom Build
------------------


+ Show Spoiler +

Useable against most passive Protoss FE openings. The idea is to bait him in building a WoL compo with lots of colossi, immortals or archons and getting him as far away from the air tech tree as possible while getting a 16 minute ultra, hydra, viper, ling max army that can eat any ground based toss army in a matter of seconds.

It begins with the standard 3 bases zerg opener. I won't come back to the details of it as anyone should know them by now. I'm not going to detail what to do against non FE openings either as it's not the point here. Anyway:

    14 - pool
    15 - hatch (or 15p15h if map is large enough or 4hatches before pool if you're called CatZ)
    15 - 2 pairs of lings to scout and deny pylons.
    17 - ovi
    18 - 1st queen
    21 - 3rd hatch

Now the twist

    @5:10 - 2 extractors
    @100 gas : speed (around 7 min)
    @100 gas : lair + 2 more extractors + 1 evo chamber
    @150 gas : +1 armor
    @100% lair (8:00-ish) : hydra den -> range then speed

Due to the earlier gas investment you can spend your first 25 energy from your second and third queens as a creep tumors without floating money. Just don't forget to keep your hatch rallies up to date (or better, manually assign drones to specific bases).
In theory without being harassed, at around 9:00 to 9:30, you should have an optimal saturation (16+2x3) on all 3 bases (minus 2 gas) and be producing a ling/hydra army. You do not need a macro hatch for this build. In fact skipping it (and the roach warren) is what allows you to get basically the same drone supply as with the WoL opening. You'll have to hit good injects if you're encountering a 2bases all in, though.
A good marker is to achieve 62 or more supply at 8:00 granted you haven't been harassed at all.

If the Protoss is going for a 2 bases all-in just produce units, dump gas into hydras and complete with lings. You should handle pretty much any standard build even if he get a colossus or 2 as long as you get a good angle and don't suicide your stuff. Don't forget that you can kite with your hydras (you know like you do with roaches against zealots). Otherwise if he is simply poking/pushing while expo-ing take the infestation pit, another evo chamber and 2 more gas ASAP. And take a forth as soon as he takes his own third. I can't stress this enough, the sooner you take your infestation pit, the sooner you'll get to T3 which is essential with this build. Even when under fire you should be able to find resources to do so.

Anyway get Hive and 2 armor / 1 melee attack (and continue upgrading) as soon as you can. When Hive is done, which should be at around 13min if the enemy stayed relatively passive, get the Ultralisk Cavern, build 4-5 Vipers and start stockpiling enough supply and resources for the Ultralisks. Get the carapace upgrade when the ultra cavern is done and start production.

At 15-16 (still granted he stayed more or less passive otherwise it will be a bit later) you should have 5+ ultras, 4+ vipers, 20-25 hydra and a bunch of lings. Attack, take another base (for gas, again) behind it. and keep your drone count at around 75.

Resupply mostly with ultra, try to keep your hydra count at around 20 and replace dead vipers. Lings, while being critical in absorbing damage in your first 200 vs 200 army, will become more and more useless in your main army as the time goes on. However, keeping a dozen in a separate control group to deny ninja expo and/or drops can be very handy.

      Notes about the mid-game

It's not always necessary depending on who you're pitted against but you can get away being extremely aggressive with this build as you'll be much faster than the toss (which is soo much funnier than the WoL turtle style imo). It can be fairly easy to deny or kill his third and delay his push by a few minutes by picking off units especially after a failed immo/sentry all in (or any non colossus based kind of all in). Don't forget that any mid game ground army without AoE that is not mass speedlots can melt to hydra ling with non abyssimal control. Even mixed air/ground armies don't bode much better.

      Downside

There's a timing window, before Ultra and vipers are out -especially if he didn't pushed while taking his third- where you will be sitting with an army that can get ripped to shreds by storms, Archons or enough colossi. As soon as your vipers are out and that you're not wasting them you should hold pretty easily until your ultras are ready. Loosing your 4th is kinda expected. Loosing your third may not be that much of a big deal as long as you keep the drones alive, just take the expo(s) back as soon as your army is ready. Granted you'll be gas starved and have probably several useless K of minerals, it could be a good idea to invest in a lot of spines to delay the enemy. You can also use this excess mineral for ling run by which can arguably be way more effective.


------------------
Pros & Cons
------------------

+ Show Spoiler +
      Pros
  • Strong against FFE and Nexus first
  • Large maps and maps that offer multiple attack angles are a plus
  • Very strong against air based openers and ground/air mixed armies
  • Can be switched as a (hard to scout) hydra/ling all in if the protoss takes an early third without access to decent AoE damage
  • Hard counters to this BO are relatively easy to scout


      Cons
  • Weaker on smaller maps
  • It can't be followed blindly, you need to scout well so you know if the protoss is hard countering your build or not
  • In the late game, when your T3 army is out, a good toss can still negate your blinding clouds with feedback.
  • doesn't work in the late game against air toss (still good opener to kill it before its ready, though)
  • build order loss against several easy to scout all ins (2 base colo)


------------------
Transitions and Counters
------------------


+ Show Spoiler +

The basics of this build is against a standard FFE where the protoss doesn't chrono his warpgate research. Against a gate/expo, a gate/robo expand or a delayed 4 gate, you will need to take an early gas and drop a roach warren to avoid being overrun by zealots.

Speedlot based openers are a pain, they are thankfully rare but if my build stays, it may become a problem. The issue with speedlots isn't really the unit itself, because with ling/hydra, granted you micro your hydras in a corner and wreak the pathing with your lings, you should still be on top. However while you micro hard and the toss basically A move, he has time to spend the bazillion gas he is saving while you may not. Dropping even a late roach warren (it's not that long of a build time anyway) will help. I don't think you need to change your upgrade focus (melee/armor) but such opener yell "scout the protoss tech" immediately as he is obviously saving gas for something.

If you detect early enough that the toss is going for air mainly (2 starports, way too many cannons, or speedlot opener) you may want to take your 2nd evo chamber earlier and go for range + armor upgrades. In this case, the best course of action, granted you're too far away in this build to switch to a more appropriate response, is to attack him continuously before he is able to deal with your hydra too easily. In this case i'd go range/armor + infestor energy and prevent him from keeping 3 bases active at the same time. You are kinda all in in this case, but given how much gas cost your hydra/infestor/ling army you should float enough mineral to expo and drone up too.

In the late game (achieving the T3 ultra/hydra/viper 200 army), do not get cocky, a good toss will drop you and DT focus your new expos. Keep your creep going, and do not forget to build several spores and spines in each base. I lost a few games because of that myself. Given how much mineral you're supposed to float with this build you have no excuse when you don't have at least 4 spines and 2 spores per base at the 20 minute mark. More to the point, in the late game against a player who harass you, keep like 1 ultra 4 hydras 1 overseer and a few lings in a separate control group to defend your bases.



------------------
Handling an ultra/ling/viper/hydra Army
------------------


+ Show Spoiler +
It's obvious, but always take a few seconds before any engagement to put your ultras in front even if it means loosing a base. Avoid engaging on ramps. Vipers should have a separate control group or a shared control group (like whole army on 1 and vipers only on 2), but a good player will focus them down anyway, just don't forget to replace them and consume buildings with the new ones before joining the army.

In theory your main spell is the blinding cloud. First you need to know that enemy units will auto walk out of the cloud and you can use this to your advantage. The direction units go is not random, they will go toward the nearest non clouded spot if there's not enemy in attack range, and otherwise they'll go in melee range toward this unit. So, by dropping the center of the cloud a tiny bit behind enemy units you'll force them to go toward your ultralisks and the Protoss player will have to order them to retreat through the whole cloud again, making kitting kinda pointless.
Also, clouds stay active for a little while on the terrain making it sooooo much better than fungal for zoning the toss ball out of range. As such It's a very good retreat tool (smoke bomb?) when used on ramps.

However, if your opponent is skilled enough with HT(it's easy to notice, if your 5 initial vipers die to feedback before dropping any cloud, then he is), you'll have to favor abducts instead. In this case you will need to have your vipers in their own control group so you know where they put the targeted units. Priorities are as follow: colossus, then immortal, then anything air based that can target ground. Don't abduct too much stuff at the same time, especially don't abduct 10 archons in the middle of your hydra ball . Alternatively, you may want to show the viper last: engage with the army first to bait storms, then cloud them all. You'll loose much more resources but still less than your opponent.

If there's next to no HT in his army and if for some reason (like your viper getting killed before doing their magic) you miss your clouds when facing a sizable enemy force, you will have to disengage and gather more energy. Ultra are (very) good but not invincible either. Well, if you are floating enough money for a full remax, you may as well continue to push on.

When used decently this compo wreaks anything ground based the protoss has. Colossi and Immortals are probably the worst answer to it. They are too slow to get out of the clouds in time. And a robo based army, even fully upgraded won't trade well at all (i usually get like a 2:1 resource loss difference).

Damage wise, loss are a bit more even with archons + storms based armies than with any other robo/gateway army. You then may want to stop most of the ling resupply and build queens instead so you can heal your ultras and keep being cost efficient. However as long as you keep getting new bases and deny his owns there's no reason you should lose (except if you're on 2 completely different skill levels) with or without queens.


------------------
Random Thoughts
------------------

+ Show Spoiler +

  • Due to the early gas you will float a bit of larva and be able to get 2 active creep tumors relatively early which is a nice thing to have compared to the standard 3 base opening.

  • Early Lair = early overseer, sometimes soon enough to deny observer

  • As with all zerg builds, you will need to scout and adapt: Against more aggressive openings (2gate or robo/gate expos) you may need to take one gas earlier (and delay the others) and drop a roach warren. Against a 2 base 2 robo colo "build" you may want to switch to something else entirely. Same goes against AirToss, it's a relatively safe opening against it but you will need air of your own and discard vipers for infestors or all in him.

  • It's a less strict build than quick max roach or quick BL infestor in terms of drone count, as you'll most probably be swimming in money anyway after the first large battle if everything is done correctly. However, you'll have to drop your tech buildings/upgrades as soon as possible. Delaying hive tech means a bigger window of opportunity for the toss to kill you before ultra or/and viper are out.

  • Do not be too afraid of armies with a single colossi (or even 2) as long as it's the only AoE, with correct positioning you can still come up on top especially when you have finished the hydra speed upgrade.

  • Do not try to "kill the toss" once you get your endgame army. Don't suicide your army up a ramp against a bazillion cannons and archons. Just prevent him from taking any new expo and starve him out because that's exactly what your army is good at.

  • Another this about the late game. If you're 200/200 and kicking, still build 2 spires and start upgrading. Same for range upgrade, once you're done with 3/3 melee/armor go range, just in case you've missed a base or a tech switch.

  • I realize there's a bunch of things missing from this post, like putting creeping OV over possible toss expo, taking secondary upgrades like burrow and and OV speed, how to spread vision to minimize your risks and so on. But, this is not a "how to play zerg" post either, I heard that Apollo made several very good tutorial youtube videos on this subject, go check them out


------------------
Replays
------------------


+ Show Spoiler +
Those replays are from when I was stuck in plat in the beginning of HoTS. I am, atm, compiling a much better set against (low) master players and I will update this section as soon as I have collected enough of them.

My apologies for the quality of those replays. It's far away from what you'd expect from a proper guide. Both me and and my opponents make many mistakes, float money forget supply cap and so on more often than not. However we BOTH do mistakes It's not like I am smashing someone down 2 leagues with a much superior macro here, armies tend to have the same value when clashing.

- Fast 3rd into colo/stalker (probably where i have the most proper viper control)
- 2 base gateway voidray
- 7 Gate
- Sentry 3rd -> colo -> archons (longer macro game)
- Robo into 3rd

      Download Archive Here (zip file)

None of my opponent did a zealot / stalker / core harass when trying this build. I don't think it would change much apart from slowing both of us down by a few seconds but i may be wrong.

I don't have a decent Immortal all in to show sadly (the only one I got doing this build was badly executed and very late), people tend to immediately switch to colo or another tech when they scout the hydra den. I may have to hide it and build a roach warren just to test the build against it even if I am fairly confident it works pretty well.
(will update if i get one)



Thank you for your time.

Cheers !


edit2: improved general quality, added several chapters, removed outdated questions.
Muirk !
Infinity_SC
Profile Joined March 2013
Germany1 Post
March 23 2013 13:54 GMT
#2
Sounds interesting, will give it a try
SK
Profile Joined January 2012
France11 Posts
March 24 2013 08:46 GMT
#3
Thank you !
Don't hesitate to comment and/or post a replay, i will check it out.

Muirk !
Adrenal6land
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States46 Posts
March 24 2013 09:53 GMT
#4
Top 8 diamond zerg here (i also have a horrible win rate zvz now lol so good luck getting back up to diamond)
i think your build works but you've already identified the weakness before the hive tech.
that was the problem in WOL when you were trying to hit greater spire.
i do a very similar build early/mid game with ling hydra (hydras are great for the stargate play now too)
and i do exactly what you mentioned, i get the infestation pit AND hydra den and pop out a few swarm hosts as needed.
you should find a timing you like to throw down your infestorpit/swarm hosts they are great vs gateway/immortal play
the only thing i have to say is WHY ultras? i dont use ultras, i survive with ling/hydra/swarm host and i just get the spire/hive at same time. then greater spire.
if you see a massive colosus or colosus void ray comp just get curupters early. in WOL overmaking currupters would lose you games sometimes but now i find that with the swarm hosts making you "free units" its much easier to survive with a bunch of left over currupters hanging around. and you can use them in the late game of course.
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12476 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-24 10:23:03
March 24 2013 10:19 GMT
#5
I am also in Plat but in NA, facing some diamonds and masters and I have similar success with this composition as well. (had horrible experience against terran using pure ling hydra lol should back to diamond soon once I stop fooling around)
The difference is that I get a +1 range right after the +1 armor. Then I drop another evo chamber for +2armor or +1melee when I start moving hive.

My reasoning is that ultras are great for providing meat shield and also already deals relatively well dps. The ultra also can prevent colossus getting close to kill the hydras and hydras with the range upgrade deals a lot of dps.
This combined with viper abduct makes hydras really powerful and also you can deal with air transition well.

I try to delay any storm push by doing run bys and so far it has been working fairly well.
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
Tsavo
Profile Joined June 2012
Denmark12 Posts
March 24 2013 10:44 GMT
#6
Hydras melt to storms, ultras don't... even with proper positioning and micro it can be hard to avoid on some maps.
Jaedong <3
Henk
Profile Joined March 2012
Netherlands578 Posts
March 24 2013 10:46 GMT
#7
I think this build is inferior to swarmhost-hydra into viper/ultra. With a few colossi, toss will be safe vs anything you can do, and isn't kept at bay due to constant locust streams. Any good toss will push before your vipers and ultras are out like you said, and you just won't be able to stop it.
logic13
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Sweden128 Posts
March 24 2013 11:54 GMT
#8
Regardless of how this holds up compared to using swarmhost, I'd just like to say that I thought it was a great post. Great insight and good coverage of different scenarios.

Good job!

(/high master zerg)
SK
Profile Joined January 2012
France11 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-24 13:35:31
March 24 2013 13:27 GMT
#9
Yay, many responses thanks everyone !

@Adrenal6land : Yeah i never built a muta in my life (well i did in silver league but ditched them kinda quickly), as results my stats are ridiculous. 60-70% win-rate ZvT and ZvP to 30-40% ZvZ which is, by far, the most common matchup I get .

you should find a timing you like to throw down your infestorpit/swarm hosts they are great vs gateway/immortal play
the only thing i have to say is WHY ultras? i dont use ultras, i survive with ling/hydra/swarm host and i just get the spire/hive at same time. then greater spire.


Speedhydras (is that a thing now?) are as good while being mobile imho. The replays i posted don't really show it because I was more focused on getting the correct army at the correct time for the purpose of this post than anything else but I tend to be an aggressive player. It was common from me to be very aggressive in ZvT with b/ling-infestor and stay on T2 for a very long time. This style allows me to do basically the same in ZvP: a very fast and high dps army (but fragile) that can deny drops and expo easily.
About ultras, that's just because they are plain good. At the worst, with missing all your clouds, they will still trade very well with anything else on the ground. Also they build faster that BL. HoTS ultras are ridiculously strong imho in all 3 matchups. SH rely on you microing them to max efficiency and if you make the smallest mistake you'll loose all of them, they are also basically begging the protoss to drop you or/and go air while an ultra/ling/speedhydra army is fast enough to counter those kind of moves.

Also from an upgrade related perspective both the SH / air and the current pro hydra/roach/viper builds are strong midgames but the T3 followup will be very very weak. No melee upgrade means that our T3 units (BL/ultra) do way less damage than they could.

This said, different players, different playstyle, which is what make this game great.

@ETisME: I have yet to try hydra vs terran. TBH against Terran Bio, I play WoL style into ultra, just a bit more defensive if the T is crazy dropping everywhere (and i thought i was overdoing my static defense in WoL, lol). About upgrades, my post is mainly against a ground based toss. I take armor first only because it's the shared upgrade between hydra and ultras. In the late game having 6 armor total on your ultra make them sooooo much durable. If he goes with more air than ground i'll take range instead ofc.
About the ultra, tbh i watched CatZ stream a lot (I like his playstyle) during the beta test and my build is a refinement of what he tried to do several times during a short period. Ultras are (and always have been) crazy good at eating any AoE damage (storm / mines / colo...), they also make sentries useless, and since HoTS they are the best damage dealers we get as they do max damage to ALL units instead of light ones only. They can still be kitted to death (without crowd control units like vipers/infestors). I do know that on those replays the skill gap between my opponents and me is kinda showing, but still, i don't micro much and the ultra still reap through everything ground based. (also 2:1 resource loss, no amount of micro could do that)
About abduct, I don't really know. It sure is a fun spell to use on retreating stuff. But the usage of blinding cloud i described does a similar effect (bringing the enemy into your melee units) on a whole ball of units. I spoke about it with a high master toss friend, he kinda agrees on the subject. This said cloud is better with my compo. I understand that abduct can be much better with others.

@Tsavo:
Hydras melt to storms, ultras don't... even with proper positioning and micro it can be hard to avoid on some maps.


Yeah it's kinda my point, a SH / hydra (or corruptors) late T2 won't last long if the toss manage to get to his own endgame while an ultra build still does.

IMHO, a SH build -while being better than the old roach/hydra/corruptor- has exactly the same downside. If the toss turtle well enough while dropping you left and right, you'll be in a terrible position for the endgame.

@Henk:

I think this build is inferior to swarmhost-hydra into viper/ultra. With a few colossi, toss will be safe vs anything you can do, and isn't kept at bay due to constant locust streams. Any good toss will push before your vipers and ultras are out like you said, and you just won't be able to stop it.


And this is where i'm unhappy to be put in a lower league because i can only theory craft ...
I do get this point and i agree to it to a given extend. First it's a bait build, "It looks like a max roach or some other related crap, i'm immortal or stargate all in you, OH wait, hydra, well, colo then", basically the BO is designed to delay the toss while being secure in the first 12 minutes or so. It's kinda of an abuse of the meta game in scrub leagues (and even so, in higher ones, getting scouted for it means an early robo bay). Also even if the toss ignore all the baits, the window of opportunity to strike me is small, like a minute or two. Given how mobile this kind of army is, delaying it is more than possible. 2 colossi + whatever gateway units won't do it against speed hydralisks, you'll need more. Imho, the worst case scenario is a toss going 2 base all in before vipers are out, which can be scouted. I'm pretty sure that if the toss take a relatively early third, you can hold until clouds if you're aggressive enough.

My answer about SH stays the same, yes you skip the timing my build is weak against, but on the other hand you are begging to be dropped all over the place while having no good follow-up upgrade wise. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of SH and use them to contain ZvT mech play, but I don't like the fact that you're a sitting duck while using them. I never liked the BH/infestor style despite loving infestors before they becoming popular and SH are *to me* too similar.

@Cry4Me:

Thank you very much! I always try my best in the boards I am using to make a good first topic, I am glad it was the case here.

Muirk !
Henk
Profile Joined March 2012
Netherlands578 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-24 15:37:20
March 24 2013 15:36 GMT
#10
On March 24 2013 22:27 SK wrote:

@Henk:

Show nested quote +
I think this build is inferior to swarmhost-hydra into viper/ultra. With a few colossi, toss will be safe vs anything you can do, and isn't kept at bay due to constant locust streams. Any good toss will push before your vipers and ultras are out like you said, and you just won't be able to stop it.


And this is where i'm unhappy to be put in a lower league because i can only theory craft ...
I do get this point and i agree to it to a given extend. First it's a bait build, "It looks like a max roach or some other related crap, i'm immortal or stargate all in you, OH wait, hydra, well, colo then", basically the BO is designed to delay the toss while being secure in the first 12 minutes or so. It's kinda of an abuse of the meta game in scrub leagues (and even so, in higher ones, getting scouted for it means an early robo bay). Also even if the toss ignore all the baits, the window of opportunity to strike me is small, like a minute or two. Given how mobile this kind of army is, delaying it is more than possible. 2 colossi + whatever gateway units won't do it against speed hydralisks, you'll need more. Imho, the worst case scenario is a toss going 2 base all in before vipers are out, which can be scouted. I'm pretty sure that if the toss take a relatively early third, you can hold until clouds if you're aggressive enough.

My answer about SH stays the same, yes you skip the timing my build is weak against, but on the other hand you are begging to be dropped all over the place while having no good follow-up upgrade wise. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of SH and use them to contain ZvT mech play, but I don't like the fact that you're a sitting duck while using them. I never liked the BH/infestor style despite loving infestors before they becoming popular and SH are *to me* too similar.



To be honest, I don't agree. two colossi, along with forcefields ARE enough to kill your hydra-ling ball. With SH, toss keeps burning forcefields, unless he wants to take damage from the locusts while defending/pushing out. I'm mid-high master, so I don't have GM like skills but I did practice with these new units. To adress your drop-defense point: hydras are still not quick enough to stop your hive from being focused down. Like in WoL, you need static defense to counter this shenanigans, because pulling back with your army will almost always kill you. With SH, I get about 10, then push with ling support. Add hydras before/after pushing depending on if he's going SG or not. I then don't make any SH again for the whole game, but just take the map and go for vipers/ultras.

I wouldn't describe a 2 minute period in which you're vulnerable as 'small', really. But anyway, if it works, keep doing it! Toss will find counters, and we'll be able to refine our builds:D
PcH
Profile Joined December 2010
United States83 Posts
March 25 2013 04:09 GMT
#11
Thank you. ZvP is joke right now and I hope this helps me.
twitch.tv/itspch
Gobbex
Profile Joined March 2013
Norway4 Posts
March 25 2013 09:28 GMT
#12
Build is fine, but will be crushed by a timed push.
Elbered
Profile Joined January 2013
Germany9 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-25 17:27:08
March 25 2013 17:25 GMT
#13
It isnt right to skip roaches...

I tried this build and got demolished by a 7 gate only zealot all in.

The Hydras are way too late for that attack and the replay you provided (against 7 gate ) is very weird....

So i would advise everyone to build the roach warren....
Ambr
Profile Joined March 2013
1 Post
March 25 2013 18:06 GMT
#14
On March 26 2013 02:25 Elbered wrote:
It isnt right to skip roaches...

I tried this build and got demolished by a 7 gate only zealot all in.

The Hydras are way too late for that attack and the replay you provided (against 7 gate ) is very weird....

So i would advise everyone to build the roach warren....


If you scout a 7g zealot all in, it's pretty obvious to put the roach warren. Following a build order don't give to you the posibility to skip the scouting.
SK
Profile Joined January 2012
France11 Posts
March 26 2013 09:15 GMT
#15
@Henk: Yeah you make a good point. I wouldn't engage against colo with enough FF. I admit i kinda forgot about FF. Still, even if directly engaging his army isn't always possible, threaten his third to keep him in place and bait the FF (if he moves out nonetheless) to gain time.

As for the 2 minutes delay, it can be much shorter if the infestation pit is dropped earlier, it's kinda what I'm trying to determine (but it's very game / enemy compo dependent). With the Vipers out, waiting for ultra isn't really a problem. Another way could be to do the same as with BL/infestor and build spines (minerals aren't really an issue with this build anyway).

And yes it works well so far, The rare games I lost using this build were because of major blunders on my side. However I'm kinda a league lower than I should be due to ZvZ, my P/T opponents are too rarely on the same level as me, so it's basically impossible for me to make a solid conclusion on this build.

Thank you. ZvP is joke right now and I hope this helps me.

You're welcome


Build is fine, but will be crushed by a timed push.


That is my fear. A mid game attack at 12-13minutes may be very very hard to delay. I am not convinced it's impossible to do so with the correct amount of spines and conceding a base or two, though. I am not convinced it's impossible to delay the toss enough so he miss the timing.

-
It isnt right to skip roaches...

I tried this build and got demolished by a 7 gate only zealot all in.

As for the mass zealots (speedless zealots are still very weak to stutter stepped hydras as long as you are on creep). A counter intuitive way to deal with this would be to get lair before speed to have your hydra in time. I'd love looking at the replay, though.

I didn't go into details about scouting, pylon deny, and such because they are the same as for the standard 3 base build, but as Ambr said, a BO (especially with zerg) isn't to be followed blindly, I'd plant a roach warren too after my sacrificial overlord(s) in this case. Also the ling being cannon fodder, i wouldn't mind loosing all of them to get the probe and pylon.

About the 7gate replay, yes It was late and I dunno why he didn't engage when he had the upper hand tbh, especially on this crappy map where my 3rd was so far away from reinforcements and where i didn't bothered creep spreading. That's the downside of plat replays, I'd love to be squashed by a better executed 7gate to adapt the build (and force me to play better as well), but it didn't happened and so far the "immediate switch to colo tech into third" has been the most common answer I got (which is basically what i want).
Muirk !
SK
Profile Joined January 2012
France11 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-19 04:01:54
May 19 2013 03:18 GMT
#16
Hey people,

I have climbed back the ladder. I'm high diamond (60/40 diam/master opponents) and I am still using this build against protoss with a 72% winrate, so I decided to update my OP. Anyway, I added several chapters (pro/cons, how to adapt), and added a bunch of details to the others. I will probably update this topic again in a week or two when I have enough varied replays against master level players.

As usual replays from other players trying this build and constructive criticism are more than welcome

Cheers,
SK.
Muirk !
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