• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:27
CEST 01:27
KST 08:27
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China1Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL63Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?13FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event22Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster16
StarCraft 2
General
Program: SC2 / XSplit / OBS Scene Switcher The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Statistics for vetoed/disliked maps Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? PiG Sty Festival #5: Playoffs Preview + Groups Recap
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays Korean Starcraft League Week 77
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
SC uni coach streams logging into betting site Player “Jedi” cheat on CSL Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion Practice Partners (Official)
Tourneys
[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational The Casual Games of the Week Thread [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 568 users

[G] Thaniri Standard TvP

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Thaniri
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1264 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-31 20:09:43
August 31 2012 01:25 GMT
#1
Link to my previous guides,
4 Barracks MMM TvP
Reactor Expand in TvT,
because I am an asshole who likes to self promote!


Ok, I rewrote it. I made it formal, I took out all the you's, and I's, and the we's. I tried to make more sense, and elaborated a lot more on the sections. I also re arranged it a little bit due to suggestions. I am not a progamer, I am not going to pretend to be as good or as smart as you guys. But, I am doing well in TvP recently and I want to share what is making me good. This is more than 5000 words, so I really did put in a lot of effort with this. Tomorrow after I wake up I will re-do the pictures, make them relevant for the new format, and I'll try to fix the fucked up paragraphs in 'watchtowers' and under 'forge expands.'
I tried my best, here you go.

[image loading]


An Overview of What Standard TvP Is:

      Standard play is standard because it is the most consistent in getting wins, and usually relies on the least amount of gimmicks. In a standard TvP, the better player will always win, and as such I consider it the best method to becoming good.

       A Terran’s units in mid to large sized numbers are strictly better than the Protoss'. In low numbers, Terran units are actually weaker than Protoss units due to the amount of damage that Zealots can take before dying. As such, the roles are very simple in terms of attacking or defending. In the early game the Terran wants to have defenders advantage to make up for the fact that he have the strictly weaker army, then in the midgame when he has the stronger army he will want to be doing as much damage as possible. In the lategame, Protoss tends to have the more robust army, with lower dps, if the Terran controls Ghosts correctly, but higher health. The Terran on the other hand has a veritable glass cannon in his hands. Terran units have high DPS output, but very low HP. As such, lategame becomes a positioning battle between the Terran and Protoss armies.

       Protoss reigns supreme in the first 8 minutes of the game when the game is standard. Terran will often have no map control whatsoever, and as such this opens a lot of opportunities for Protoss to cheese him. or to play economically greedy. The midgame is where Protoss chooses either to do a two base all-in, or to fight to secure the third base. In the lategame, Protoss is gobbling up bases slowly, similarly to mech in TvZ, they are playing the slower game to choke the Terran out.

Weaknesses of Going Standard:

       Standard is standard for a reason. This style has the fewest possible weaknesses compared to other strategies. The only weakness I can think of at this time is unscouted cheese, and 4 Gate Blink Obs, scouted or not.

      I like to think that Starcraft 2 is a balanced game, and it is. Except for 4 Gate Blink Obs. If someone can write a guide on how to hold it with 1 rax expand with a winrate of 55%+ I will be delighted to see it.

The Opener:

+ Show Spoiler +


  • 10 Depot

  • 12 Barracks, scout after it is done.

  • 16/17 Orbital

  • 17 CC, cut SCVs

  • 18 Depot, resume SCV production.

  • Two more Barracks as you can afford them, only making marines until you have a factory.

    INTERJECTION. If your SCV sees a Zealot, delay the Barracks to get a Bunker, otherwise you are fine.

  • 4:15 Refinery if no Zealot, 4:30 Refinery if Zealot.

  • Get a Techlab on one of the Barracks for Stim, when the Techlab finishes get a second gas.

  • When you mine an additional 100 gas, get an Engineering Bay, a Factory, and a third gas

  • 8:30 Choose to make a third Command Centre, or two more Barracks. Also, take this time to start getting the rest of your addons and a fourth gas. In order, after the original techlab, you want a reactor, a techlab, another reactor, and a third techlab. Leaving you off with three techlabs and two reactors.

  • Move out with the first two Medivacs, but don't really do any attacks until you have four. Determine his tech with this moveout.

  • If you chose to go for Barracks 4/5 or a third CC, get the other option from 10:00-11:00. Also don't forget your Armoury!




The Early Game:

+ Show Spoiler +




       The early game, as stated before is completely defensive for the Terran player. When Terran is scouting, he is looking for four pieces of information, Zealot, gas, buildings and expansion.

       If Terran scouts a Zealot, he must send the first Marine to the watch tower and make a Bunker at the natural. He wants to use the Marine at the watch tower to run circles around the Zealot until the Bunker finishes. After Zealot and Stalker pressure has been deflected by use of the Bunker, it is a good idea for Terran to try and get an SCV out to scout for a natural expansion, if the original scout has been killed.
       If Terran scouts double gas, he must begin to scout the map for proxies at around 5:30, also scouting his natural by 6:00. It is a good idea to patrol a single Marine near the main cliff edge to scout for proxy pylons. If Protoss has two very fast gas geysers, and a half done natural at 6:30, this is a DT build, and Terran should have an Engineering Bay finished. A fast double gas with two probes in each geiser can be indicative of a 4 Gate Blink Obs, this is not a guarantee, but the alternative is a fairly quick expansion so it is easy to determine which strategy it will be. If Terran continues to be blind, 7:00-7:30 is typically a good time to scan. This scan timing is pretty old, however it can still be useful it Terran really needs to know what Protoss is doing.
       Expansions are different, if Protoss has a Nexus first with no Pylon in front of the Nexus, Terran can choose to bunker rush it. However, it is not recommended to bunker rush against any Gate Expands because the Marines would be in close quarters with VERY strong Zealots. It is best to simply take the expansion in stride and play normally. With the presence of Chronoboost, Terran can be punished very hard for trying to be too aggressive.
       Before your SCV leaves the base, Protoss should have 3 Pylons in his main base, or else he is supply blocked. If the third pylon is not present, and there is a fast double gas, the Terran player must be aware of the possibility of a proxy. The Nexus energy can also give away if a cheese is coming. If there is 75 energy piled up on the Nexus, and one gas, it is probably a 4 Gate, if there is two gas, be wary of high tech cheese.

Various Cheeses:
  • 4 Gate. Go up to two bunkers, pre-pull 5 SCVs and make a Marauder quickly. If all scouting has been denied, a scan at 6:00 will reveal whether or not Warpgate Technology has finished, however by this time Terran is usually dead if ill prepared.

  • 3/4 Gate Void Ray. make two bunkers near your command center at the natural, then one near the production facilities in the main. All Terran has to do is survive until there is a large bioball. SCVs can die, but the units can, not, die. The only way to defeat the Protoss army is with a huge Marine stim, so it is paramount that the Marines cower behind bunkers until there is a large force of them. Oftentimes additional Barracks are added to make sure there is an overwhelming force of Marines.
    Another small timing is that if the second gas has mined 50 gas at the time that the Cybernetics Core finishes, it lines up perfectly for a Void Ray build. This is not a guarantee, just something to keep in mind.

  • DT Rush. Calmly make Turrets, and take a third base. A simple strategy once seen on Jinro’s stream is to forgo the third base in order to mass up Barracks then do a mass Marine and SCV attack, using the SCVs to make Bunkers and Turrets. Another small timing is that the second gas is created when the Cybernetics Core is roughly 25% done.
           After two base, DTs are given the role to keep the Terran in his base. This can be done with a Warp Prism, the best way to deal with it is to make a single Viking and simply patrol it near a path the Warp Prism would take.

  • 3/4 Gate Immortals. There are two different things that people do in this situation. The first strategy against Immortals would be to make piles of Bunkers at the natural expansion. The second strategy is to use stim and SCVs away from the natural expansion to try and trade units. Both options are valid, but the mass Bunker strategy is more popular.

  • Mass gateways off of two base. 3 bunkers and 8 pre-pulled SCVs will stave off all pressure. The Bunkers should be used to focus down the Protoss Sentries, while the Marines behind the bunkers will automatically target the Zealots.

  • 4 Gate Blink Obs. Here I will write informally because I do not know the answer: I get 2 bunkers at my front, 1 at my production facilities, 1 at my main mineral line. I put 2 marines in each bunker and surround them by 3 SCVs. With my double techlab I am getting stim and concussive shells at the cost of delaying my starport. I normally just die, so good fucking luck with this shit. >.>


      Forge Expands. These are a bit strange, in the context of a standard game Terran can not really punish it because cannons maul marines, and it is also now within context to be rushing for a fast Stim drop. Against this, it is important to scan at 7 minutes or so to see what the Forge is doing, and how many Gates there are, because a common strategy is to do a mass Gate timing with a single Forge upgrading. This strategy also lends itself to High Templar play later on, so it is good to be mentally prepared for it, however do not assume that it is High Templar from the get go, rather if you can not figure out what tech Protoss has by 11:30 choose to blind counter Templar as opposed to Colossus.
      As a response to a Forge expand, Terran can choose to continue with safe play, taking into account that a gateway timing can occur, or choose to take a small risk and grab a quick third before gas. When Terran takes a fast third expansion, it is obviously going to be vulnerable for a while against a timing attack, however it allows you to get more production facilities quicker, and pays for itself after only two MULE cycles.
      The double Medivac Marine drop with Stim is possible, however it tends only to be good if the Protoss is caught unawares, and standard play is not about trying to trick anyone. However, if you do wish to do it, just remember Bomber’s very old strategy of 3 Barracks into fast double Refinery to get very quick Medivacs.

      As for scan timings, the main one is at 7:30. It is at this point that Protoss really begins to dedicate to a certain strategy, and as a result a common scan timing. I personally don’t see the point, however inKorean TvP games, this is the main scan timing.



The Mid-Game:

+ Show Spoiler +


      The midgame is where Terran takes control of the game. in TvP, Terran has an interesting role where they are both the aggressor, and the reactionary race. Protoss defines how the game will be played by their tech choices, as opposed to Terran. During the early stages of the midgame, Terran should have 5 Barracks, 1-2 Starports, and two Engineering Bays as his infrastructure. After 2-2 starts near the end of the midgame, Terran can go up to 7-8 Barracks.

       Just as Terran moves out with the double Medivac, it is prudent to scan above the main army to take out an Observer. From this point on, in order to continue to kill Observers, there should always be at least one scan available. The initial two Medivacs are used to determine what tech the Protoss has gone for. There are three main possibilities. Colossus, Templar, Double Forged Gateways, from which they are divided up into several sub categories.

       First, Colossus. Upon scouting that Colossus tech is on the field, it is important to get a second Starport out in order to be able to make 3 Vikings at a time. While the Starport begins construction, a single Marine should be stimmed to scout for a third base. Two scenarios will come of this, either there is a third, or there isn’t.
In the case that Terran sees a third, and the Protoss units are even slightly out of position to defend it, the Terran can often snipe it by stimming everything and retreating very quickly. This strategy becomes much more effective if Observers and other forms of scouting are being consistently denied. If the Protoss units are in fact in position to defend the third base, the Terran can try to shake him out of position by continuously scanning for Observers, and denying towers, pylons, and any form of vision Protoss may have. Then, as Protoss is blinded, Terran can poke anywhere he wants to do minor damage in order to try and find a window to do major damage. On a map such as Cloud Kingdom or Daybreak, the Vikings can shoot the Colossus as they move between the third and the natural expansions, and if no Colossus are present during a fight, the Terran can win engagements head on with ease. If Protoss appears to be completely resilient to all offensive moves, Terran ought to keep moving about on the Protoss side to deny Pylons, Warp Prisms, and always threaten a counter attack should Protoss decide to move out. Using this huge map control, Terran can gain an advantage by grabbing a quick third base. If Protoss is playing completely passive, with few Stalkers eating into his gas income, it is important for Terran to have access to Ghost technology to counter potential High Templars as early as 15 minutes in. Another tell-tale clue for a tech switch to Templar is that the Colossus count never increases above 3.
      If there is no third expansion present for Protoss, it is crucial to know his composition, and/or his building infrastructure. The things that Terran should look for are Stalker counts, and Gateway counts. If there are a large number of Stalker being fielded by the Protoss player, or a large number of Gateways, it is usually indicative of a two base Colossus all-in incoming. The best sign is that there are two Colossus already completed when you arrive at his base. The correct response to this is to load up a drop full of Marines near his main base for later, and making Bunkers with Marauders inside of them at home. Due to this sharp increase in mineral spending, often the Terran needs to cut Marine production to be able to afford the Bunkers. The reason that Marauders should go into the bunkers is that they will have a range advantage over the Stalkers, thus enabling the Vikings to shoot at the Colossus and ultimately win the battle. During all this, Terran can force the reinforcements of Protoss to be warped in at home with the dropship, and eventually he will have the bigger army at his own base and roll over the Protoss. Against a Stalker Colossus composition, a Marauder heavy composition from Terran will do very well.

      High Templar. There are usually two cases in which Terran discovers Templar. The first, is on two base the Protoss will try to take his third with Storm. This can be treated almost exactly the same way as the mirror case with Colossus trying to take a third, with the obvious difference being the Ghosts. In this case, Terran can again try to deny the third with bio forces, buying time for Ghost reinforcements to arrive.
       The second is that Protoss rushed a third base and can already defend it with Storm. This is a very difficult thing to deal with, however Protoss will naturally have a smaller army. As with the first case, it is important to try to get Ghost technology as quick as possible, however because Protoss has such a large area to defend, and with so few units due to the fast third, Terran can begin to employ drops to try and batter down Protoss’ forces for the Ghosts. The goal behind the drop play, is to make sure there is no/will not be a Zealot wall protecting the Templar from being attacked. When the forces of Protoss are so spread thin, it is easier to sidestep the Zealots in order to pick off a Templar, or failing that, the Zealot forces will be reduced which will enable the Ghosts later. If the Terran Ghost micro is good enough to not only Snipe the Templar, but also to EMP the Sentries, there is almost no reason why he should not be able to deny the third base. Against a Templar, the composition that Terran wants is essentially Marine, Medivac, Ghost, with only a few marauders. This is due to the fact that Templar are so gas heavy and minera light, that all the excess funds will go into Zealots, which do extremely well versus Marauders, so it is better to make Marines almost exclusively. The same as the mirror situation with Colossus where you absolutely can not deny the third base, continue to just deny the fourth, while taking a quick one of your own due to your advantage through map control. This is the same advantage Protoss takes advantage of in the first 8 minutes of the game before stim.
      There are also random 8 gate Storm all-ins that do occur, however these can be dealt easily with, by making large amounts of bunkers.

      Against double Forge mass gateway play, Terran will win the VAST majority of his games using 4-6 Medivacs and a large bio force crashing directly against the Protoss army. If the Protoss is forcefielding his ramp to buy time, Terran can load up a single medivac and fly it over them to try and force a Zealot attack and to try and snipe Sentries. If the Protoss engages, it is simple to lift the dropship and to use the forcefields against the Protoss player. The reason this tactic works, is because the presence of Medivacs threaten a drop in the main base of Protoss, therefore the Stalkers, the anti air, have to be there or else Protoss just dies. Ghosts are great versus plain Gateway units, and the most common followup from mass Gateways is High Templar, so they are almost always a good choice.
      There will be times where the Protoss army is just too strong to be broken. However, with the use of dropships, Terran can pull the Protoss every which way to eventually find a whole. If Protoss has impeccable defence, Terran can still be greedy behind this aggression because Protoss can not attack for fear of a much faster counter attack.

      In TvP, it is simple to determine who is ahead or behind in the midgame. This is mostly defined by upgrades, third bases, and tech advantages. Upgrades and third bases are roughly equal in terms of strategic importance, however tech advantages are much more important and dangerous. If Terran is unprepared for strategy X, he is often put into a defensive position while he is scrambling to come up with an answer for it, then once Terran is prepared for X, Protoss reveals XY, and Z. This is called the snowball effect, where once a player falls behind in the army composition, that player will fall quicker and quicker behind. Thus, he must find other advantages while dealing with his tech. However that is difficult because the tech itself gives other advantages to the Protoss players.



Entering The Lategame:

+ Show Spoiler +


      Terran will win a lot with the 4 Medivac timing. However, there are still three ways Terran enters the lategame. Ahead, even, Behind. At the end of the Midgame section I outlined a simple way to determine whether you are ahead, even or behind, as it is important to how you will enter the lategame.

       Entering the lategame is about Protoss' fourth base more than Terran's. Protoss is defined by gas, four bases of gas income means that they can create any army composition they want, and five bases of gas income means that they have an infinite amount of whatever they want.

       As such, determining whether a player is ahead or behind in the midgame, determines how the lategame should be set up in the best possible way for him.

       If Protoss comes out of the midgame ahead, he will often take a faster fourth. Having a fourth base means that the area to defend is much larger, and as such the response from Terran is to do drops and various attacks to pull apart the Protoss in the hopes of finding something important undefended. A very complicated strategy here is to do a double drop to snipe tech or workers, while keeping his main army chasing about half of Terran’s bio force, and the other half of the bio force tries to snipe the fourth when it can. The main rule is to try not to actually engage the Protoss army, and to try and get the perfect composition with which to secure a fifth.

       If the game is even, Terran is goading Protoss to attack head on, and all of the conflict revolves around securing a fourth base for both players. Drops are more sporadic than if Protoss was ahead, because Terran wants as large of a single force as possible. The game is defined by one player attempting to deny the other’s fourth while securing his own. If Protoss’ fourth is insanely defended, accept it as an invitation to do damage elsewhere.

       If Terran comes out ahead, It is a good idea to start adding many macro orbitals, and fighting HARD to deny the Protoss a fourth. It does not matter if Terran begins to trade inefficiently, with the macro advantage as leverage, the Protoss player will eventually starve after rebuilding his forces for the umpteenth time.

      When setting up the lategame, 12 Orbitals should be the point at which Terran begins to suicide SCVs. At 9 Orbitals, MULEs provide the equivalent mineral income of 3 bases, so going up to 12 provides a lot of energy for scanning.



The Lategame:

+ Show Spoiler +

      The lategame is defined by expansions and map territory. It is important to understand what parts of the map a player effectively ‘owns’ and how to launch attacks or create defences from that information. It is also important to know what the ultimate composition is, and how to partition it to gain yourself strategic advantages. By far, the best map to learn these principles is Tal’darim Altar.

      The ultimate Terran composition is roughly 10 Marauders, 6-10 Medivacs, 6-8 Ghosts, 16 Vikings and the rest of the supply being in Marines, with roughly 20 scvs on the map. This composition is designed to be a sledgehammer that can clear through any Protoss army with ease, however, unless it is impossible for Protoss to avoid an engagement, the composition has to change to be more mobile. This is done by adding more Marauders, up to 20, and more Medivacs, up to 16. Having a weaker army on paper, a frontal engagement is much less appealing, however, with the increased mobility of infinitely being allowed to stim, flying around in the dropships, and the simple increased amount of HP and anti-building DPS, it opens up other strategic choices.

      In the lategame, there must be eyes on every expansion that is available on the map. This can be a Marine behind a mineral line to spot the Nexus, or a Supply Depot, or whatever the player chooses. Because of the Warpgate mechanic, it is important to destroy Nexii before they can become fortified, or else a large warpin round will thwart every attempt to attack an expansion, bar the main army. However, it is a poor decision to use the main army to destroy expansions because it is much easier to be caught out of position and because of the glass cannon quality of the Terran army, a very risky move. The main army should rather be positioned in front of the main source of income, and there must be a wide range of vision provided with either marines at watch towers, or Sensor Towers to quickly respond to any offensives. Then after being able to establish his own income, the Terran player needs to begin to deny the Protoss income by use of dropships and nukes. Protoss can defend these expansions with his main army, so it is important to be able to keep that out of the way as you kill a Nexus. There are several strategies to try and get economic damage in. The first, is to do many drops simultaneously, this is to directly challenge the Protoss player to multi task better than the Terran or else Terran will do significant damage to Protoss. The second, is for Terran to use his main army to grab the Protoss’ attention, however it becomes complicated with the way Terran must move his army. Imagine as an army is moving away from a base, that there is a rope behind held from the base to the army. This rope is infinitely long and represents the line of territory that a player ‘owns.’ The player moving his army away from his income using this rope must not let the rope be severed by anything, as this will cut off retreat paths and reinforcements, and opening up the income bases to attack, and committing the main army so heavily that harassment becomes too risky. When doing this move, it is also important to understand that the harassment you attempt to do, is on the opposite side of the moveout, or else it defeats the purpose of trying to pull the Protoss army in any direction. The third option is with nukes. Nukes are the best mineral dump Terran could ever hope for. Terran really only needs 3 bases of gas income to have his super army, and the fourth base of gas income can be used to constantly be dropping nukes upon the Protoss, destroying his economy, or manipulating his army movement with ‘don’t come’ or ‘move here’ nukes. Nukes are also incredible at forcing engagements by cutting off retreat paths. For example, If Terran is attacking Protoss’ fourth on Cloud Kingdom and he retreats to his third, Terran will nuke the ramp between the two.

       Protoss can also harass the Terran. As bases become so spread out, it becomes difficult to defend everything at once, and Protoss can abuse this by use of Warp Prisms, DT's, and Storm warpins. In the lategame, each base 5+ should be a Planetary Fortress. This alone should keep it safe from even large Zealot warpins. There must also be a Turret in the mineral line of every Planetary Fortress to prevent DT harass. Periodically, something should be used to scan for proxy Pylons near your expansions, because a common strategy is to warp in a High Templar and wait for the energy to storm your SCVs. There is no real way to stop this strategy, other than to prevent it from starting.

       The most dangerous thing to watch out for is a huge warpin at the production facilities. This calls for a huge amount of the main Terran force to come back to defend it. This move opens up a lot of room for Protoss to begin to make advances upon fringe expansions, and for that reason it is very difficult to deal with. If Terran is surprised by a mass warpin near his Barracks, he must go to defend it, but then accept that he will take damage somewhere. The best move in this situation, is to begin to load up dropships to do damage back to the Protoss at the same time, in the hopes to keep him from moving out and destroying a Planetary Fortress, and if he does move out regardless Terran can begin to work on Protosses expansions.


Micro By Type of Battle:

+ Show Spoiler +


      Midgame versus Collosus. As the Terran engages the Protoss army, the Vikings must pick off the Collosus individually. Once the Vikings are on target fire, the bio can stim forward, just as the bio reaches Collosus range, double click the Marines and pull them back, this way the Marauders are taking as much damage as possible, allowing the superior DPS of the Marines to last as long as possible. In engagements where upgrades are even, Terran should win most engagements, except due to poor position. The positions that Terran wants to take are where large arcs can be established, or where a Marauder Viking flank can snipe some Colossus.

      Midgame versus Templar. These fights tend to be drawn out for very long periods of time, because of how mana regenerates. There are three very simple stages of a battle, Sentries + Templar, Templar, No Casters. By order, Terrans want to eliminate the Sentries first, then the Templar, until they can roll the Protoss army. At first, try to use small bio forces to bait forcefields and to also try to snipe sentries, the logic behind this is to remove the big walls that protect the Templar. Once Sentries are largely eliminated as threats, then Terran should begin to stim large portions of the bio force to bait engagements. If the bait is taken, simply retreat the bio and hit the Ghost hotkey and start sniping away at Templar, if the bait is not taken, keep trying to get him out of position. Throughout all of this, is is incredibly important to scan to find hiding Templar, and to find Observers. If you get surprised by a storm, it will typically cost you the game.

      Lategame versus Collosus Templar. When a storm is brewing between the two players, begin to scan in search of Observers to snipe with your Vikings. If Terran destroys all detection that Protoss has, he can cloak every Ghost and carpet bomb with EMPs. However, if this huge advantage can’t be obtained, start to focus down the Colossus with the Vikings and stimming forward the bio. When Protoss decides to attack, retreat with the bio in order for the Ghosts to get into EMP range. Protoss area of effect damage is so powerful, that you want to mitigate as much of it as possible before being forced to engage. If ever a bio force is in danger of being stormed, that section should be pulled away and a Ghost should move forward to dispatch the Templar.

Drop Rotation:

      Drop rotation is a very simple method in which the Terran is moving the Protoss army in circles with drops. As soon as Protoss is prepared to defend one spot, another is attacked, then when defence is gathered at that spot, another one is attacked, and the cycle continues until Terran gains a huge advantage from the amount of damage he has dealt, or Protoss finally ousts the dropships. While macroing effectively, a large force can be gathered to snipe a base while Protoss is busy hiding behind his walls.



Watchtowers:

+ Show Spoiler +


This part will be informal, because I’m tired now.

       The Watchtower. I almost always take 5 or so Marines to try and seize the watch tower from the Stalker. Most times this will not succeed, but if you are unsure of what Protoss is doing, it is an important move to buy time for an SCV to slip out of your base and scout. If you are deadset on killing the Stalker, I only recommend in on a map where it is kind of hard for the Stalker to escape, or it is impossible for the Stalker to attack back. For example on Cloud Kingdom, the Stalker is against the wall and requires a reaction time of 3 seconds or less to escape, which I think you can justify chasing it if they have such a small window to run away. Daybreak is an excellent map also, because the tower is surrounded by smoke, you can take over the tower and the Stalker can not attack back without getting in very close.

       There is this small cute move you can make, if the Protoss player goes for a gate expand and you choose to make a bunker. You can take 2-3 of your Marines and 2 SCV around the vision of the watch tower (where is Stalker and/or Zealot are) and just attack his natural. You can get a sentry or two, and a bunch of probes. I don't really do this because I think the Protoss can discover this cutesy move too easily



Replays:

+ Show Spoiler +


  • http://drop.sc/242422
    Good standard game vs uncJER.

  • http://drop.sc/244978
    Show casing 'rotating' someone with drops.
    I will get on it immediately after posting.

  • http://drop.sc/244387

  • http://drop.sc/244368
    A very good hold of my marine poke early on. Then he goes two base high templars and I trade armies to make sure the zealot screen doesn't shield his templars later on.

  • http://drop.sc/187500
    Bomber himself versus a two base Colossus allin.

  • http://drop.sc/244957





Other Stuff:

+ Show Spoiler +


A different post more about Bomber's build itself.

Day9's daily on Bomber's Build.

hyunGGe
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States108 Posts
August 31 2012 01:56 GMT
#2
Quick question; Isn't your opener just Bomber's TvP style that Day9 discussed a lot about in Daily 470?

Pretty comprehensive guide. Good job.
Jugem-Jugem Shit-Tossing The Life Of Shin-chan's Two-Day-Old Underwear Balmung Fezalion Isaac Schneider 1/3True Love 2/3 Hangnail Anxiety Betrayal Knows My Name Or Does It Really Ignore Calls Squid Dogfish Halibut Trout-Cod Dogfish This Is a Different Dog
Thaniri
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1264 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-31 01:58:16
August 31 2012 01:57 GMT
#3
On August 31 2012 10:56 hyunGGe wrote:
Quick question; Isn't your opener just Bomber's TvP style that Day9 discussed a lot about in Daily 470?

Pretty comprehensive guide. Good job.


Yes, but all Day9 talked about (felt like to me) was the build order.

Edit: And Bomber has a knack for setting THE standard in TvP.
U_G_L_Y
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States516 Posts
August 31 2012 02:17 GMT
#4
If you were able to scout a twilight researching something, I immediately get a total of three techlabs and go straight marauder. (hotkey workers at both expansions.) If I can hold the first two blink-ins without taking too much damage, its gg.

If you don't scout it, might as well gg out :p

Good guide
etherealfall
Profile Joined December 2011
Australia476 Posts
August 31 2012 02:42 GMT
#5
Good guide. Recently switched to terran and from a protoss perspective, you are addressing everything. Though I might add, what's your aversion to pushing with 2 medivacs? With the macro standard of PvT being double forge, that's the timing I fear the most.

This will help me with my terran progression enormously
Thaniri
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1264 Posts
August 31 2012 03:01 GMT
#6
On August 31 2012 11:42 etherealfall wrote:
Good guide. Recently switched to terran and from a protoss perspective, you are addressing everything. Though I might add, what's your aversion to pushing with 2 medivacs? With the macro standard of PvT being double forge, that's the timing I fear the most.

This will help me with my terran progression enormously


The reason you don't attack with only 2 medivacs with Bombers modern TvP is because you don't have combat shield, which is a huge portion of your army HP.

Also, it takes 4 medivacs to outheal mass zealot DPS.
rsvp
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States2266 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-31 03:05:19
August 31 2012 03:02 GMT
#7
On the surface this guide looks great - it's nicely formatted, it's pretty with a lot of pictures, and I spot a replay section. However, after I took the time to read it unfortunately I have to say it's lacking in a lot of areas. I think part of the issue is that you're tackling a tough topic - "standard play TvP." In effect you're trying to write a guide about TvP in it's entirety, and in order to do that justice you really need to add a lot more substance and detail. Right now it just seems like you're storytelling a typical TvP you might have.

For example, your advice against double forge styles is simply 'attack when you have 4-6 medivacs and win.' Your advice against standard colossus macro play that isn't a 2 base all in is 'snipe their 3rd and play the base denial game.' Well what if you attack and you don't win? What if their army is sitting at their 3rd and you can't just go and snipe it? I would like to see a lot more detail in your responses against standard protoss styles, as well as perhaps a discussion of other options you can employ - a "standard" style can still have different stylistic variants against different builds - i.e., say you scan and spot double forge early on (btw that is one thing I disagree with on your guide, the fact that you don't really scout until you have 2 medivacs - I would advocate scanning their main or ramp to get an idea of what they're going for earlier), instead of just attacking with 4 medivacs, you could instead choose to take your own 3rd earlier than normal since you know they can't put any pressure early on having invested so much on tech and upgrades early on.

Also there needs to be more replays. I really don't understand why people say "I'll add [more] replays later," you've obviously spent a lot of time writing the guide and you've obviously spent hundreds of games playing your guide (so you should have those games available), why can't you just delay the posting of your guide an extra 30 minutes for some additional replays?

On the bright side, I do like the random micro/cutesy tips scattered throughout the guide, such as taking watchtowers, always scanning your army to kill off observers, nukes, pulling marines back when microing against colossus, etc. Maybe it would be better if they were all in a separate section though, or maybe you can have a section purely on how to micro/army control during engagements.
Thaniri
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1264 Posts
August 31 2012 03:29 GMT
#8
@rsvp I stuck my name in the title as it is my interpretation. This is all based on my experience, and I am sorry that you did not like the way I wrote. I'm not a particularly good writer anyway, my writing tends to be choppy (such as this paragraph) and it makes it easier for me to write chronologically (early, mid, late) and it sort of lends itself towards a strange story telling guide. And now I'll reply to the points made in your post.

Double forge ACTUALLY dies to 4-6 medivacs.

I agree that I should talk about not being able to snipe the third.

When I start losing games because I didn't scout until 10 minutes, I'll listen to that advice. As it stands, not even korean pros really scout during this time. Bomber, the guy who made the build just doesn't scout at all...

Noting all that that, I don't really know how much more I could add, unless I opened this up to be a collaborative effort, but since I'm a low level player, no-one really would want to partner with me anyway.

I am going to add replays now.

Thank you for the reply!

Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
August 31 2012 03:34 GMT
#9
^ his criticism had nothing to do with how you write. In one ear...

And I find it impossible to believe korean terran's don't scout before 10 minutes. Just because you can't tell they scouted when watching a vod casted by people who never play the game, doesn't mean they didn't scout. Pros pick up nuances that are extremely complex that you'd never figure, but they do. They have a million questions and answers going on throughout the entire game, seeking the answers to these questions all the time, and finding answers, but the viewer is unable to tell. Even with a stream/fpv/replay it may not be clear.

How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Thaniri
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1264 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-31 04:20:53
August 31 2012 04:11 GMT
#10
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 31 2012 12:34 Belial88 wrote:
^ his criticism had nothing to do with how you write. In one ear...

And I find it impossible to believe korean terran's don't scout before 10 minutes. Just because you can't tell they scouted when watching a vod casted by people who never play the game, doesn't mean they didn't scout. Pros pick up nuances that are extremely complex that you'd never figure, but they do. They have a million questions and answers going on throughout the entire game, seeking the answers to these questions all the time, and finding answers, but the viewer is unable to tell. Even with a stream/fpv/replay it may not be clear.



He didn't like me writing it as a story of a typical TvP with Thaniri...

And korean terrans actually don't scout the Protoss base bar early game cheeses. They scout if it will change something they are doing, if you scout something and no matter what you see your build doesn't change.

In about 1 minute after this post, there will be additional replays (2 days old) I spent so long because I don't autosave properly and I have to filter through the good ones.

Edit: Added a small section about forge expand. Working on the 'not being able to snipe his third' and will also add a section analysing maps.
rsvp
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States2266 Posts
August 31 2012 04:26 GMT
#11
On August 31 2012 13:11 Thaniri wrote:
if you scout something and no matter what you see your build doesn't change.


On August 31 2012 12:29 Thaniri wrote:
Double forge ACTUALLY dies to 4-6 medivacs


On August 31 2012 12:29 Thaniri wrote:
Noting all that that, I don't really know how much more I could add


When you make comments like those above, it really underlies your superficial understanding of the game. You seem like an intelligent guy in general, but I suggest you work on your own game first before writing more guides.

And btw, out of curiosity I decided to fact check your claim that "Bomber doesn't scout at all." I looked up the 2 most recent Bomber reps I could find, 2 games during group stages of IEM Cologne against Grubby. You can find the reps here: http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season7/cologne/news/201550

Game 1 on Cloud Kingdom: Bomber scouts after rax, then after seeing Grubby's 2 gas build he hides his SCV on his map to try to scout him again a minute later. Meanwhile he is checking all over the place near his base for proxy probes/pylons.

Game 2 on Ohana: Bomber scouts after rax, sees 1 gas and expects standard macro play from Grubby this game. Still, he scans his main at around 7:30 into the game.

Yea, you're absolutely right. Bomber never scouts.
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
August 31 2012 04:56 GMT
#12
I agree with all of rsvp's sentiments.

Saying double forge just dies to 4-6 medivacs is silly when it's been over and over again to be solid in pro games. Creator, for example, uses it in almost every game.

You should also probably talk about which add-ons to get on your barracks after the first one, as that makes a huge difference.

Also don't like people naming guides after themselves, especially if you got the build from Bomber. =/

From a writing standpoint, I personally think a more formal tone is more appropiate for stuff like this, but then again, you did name the guide "[G] Thaniri Standard TvP."
Moderator
Thaniri
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1264 Posts
August 31 2012 05:12 GMT
#13
@rsvp

I talk about scouting if you scout double gas.

7:30 scan is smart I guess, I only studied his replays from red bull and he didn't really scout except if it was double gas.

@nrgmonk

I will talk about addons.

@both

I'm not pretending to be as good as you guys, this is TvP from my perspective, and I am doing well in the matchup so I wanted to share what makes me good.
smN
Profile Joined June 2011
22 Posts
August 31 2012 12:35 GMT
#14
Big thaks to Thaniri for this great writeup.

Its really sad to see that after writing 5000 words wanting to help, all he gets from people is criticism about how he should step up his game before trying to write guides.

This guide covers many standard situations that crop up in almost every TvP and I feel especially low to mid lvl players can learn a ton from this. Of course there can always debate about the specifics and "which build dies to what" but that does not lessen the effort that Thaniri put into this guide.

Keep it up!
One mind, one heartbeat.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-31 13:22:05
August 31 2012 12:40 GMT
#15
Mid-GM Terran on Europe here. I read your text and I disagree with a lot of things, so I quote and comment below.

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
In the lategame, Protoss tends to have the more robust army, with lower dps, if the Terran controls Ghosts correctly, but higher health. The Terran on the other hand has a veritable glass cannon in his hands. Terran units have high DPS output, but very low HP. As such, lategame becomes a positioning battle between the Terran and Protoss armies.

Protoss lategame army, “lower dps”? No, I don't think so. Watching bio armies literally melt in seconds is a common sight. Zealots, Archons, Colossi and possibly Storms have an amazing dps combined. There is no need to try to characterize the match-up with this kind of chiasmus anyway.

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
In the lategame, Protoss is gobbling up bases slowly, similarly to mech in TvZ, they are playing the slower game to choke the Terran out.

Not really. Protoss has a much easier time expanding than mech TvZ because they have Cannons and Warpgate. Besides, how can you talk about lategame TvP and never mention the deadly threat of Warp Prisms, constant Zealots/DTs harass on expands, production, etc.?

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
[*]8:30 Choose to make a third Command Centre, or two more Barracks.

No, 9:30 is the right time to choose between a third or 2 more additional Barracks. If you want to write a guide about standard TvP, you should emphasize the difference between those two choices, how you should be more conservative with your army if you went faster third, how you can pressure harder with 5 rax before third, etc.

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
Also, take this time to start getting the rest of your addons and a fourth gas. In order, after the original techlab, you want a reactor, a techlab, another reactor, and a third techlab. Leaving you off with three techlabs and two reactors.

Why not mention the possibility to get 2 Reactors + 1 Tech Lab as opposed to 2 Tech Labs + 1 Reactor on your initial Barracks, and discuss the respective advantages of each?

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
The early game, as stated before is completely defensive for the Terran player. When Terran is scouting, he is looking for three pieces of information, Zealot, gas, and expansion.

Energy saved or spent, third Pylon seen or not and Pylon placement are also important, especially if the Protoss went dual gas.

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
If Terran scouts a Zealot, he must send the first Marine to the watch tower and make a Bunker at the natural. He wants to use the Marine at the watch tower to run circles around the Zealot until the Bunker finishes.

You should mention the possibility of building an EB at the Protoss' natural with your scouting SCV to force the Zealot to kill it, thus allowing you to skip Bunker until later.

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
[*]4 Gate. Go up to two bunkers, pre-pull 5 SCVs and make a Marauder quickly.

4G hits before you get your first Marauder anyway. You should also mention how to deal with Stalkers run-bys; on some maps (e. g. Entombed Valley), the Protoss player can ignore your Bunkers to warp some Zealots in your natural with a Pylon on the low ground.

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
Another small timing is that if the second gas has mined 50 gas at the time that the Cybernetics Core finishes, it lines up perfectly for a Void Ray build.

Too many one-base all-ins get their second gas at the same time, you can't know.

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
[*]DT Rush. Calmly make bunkers, and take a third base.

Why additional Bunkers? One Turret at the entrance is enough. You should also mention likely Zealots/Archons follow-ups. You should also mention Prism DT harass out of 2 bases.

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
[*]Mass gateways off of two base. 3 bunkers and 8 pre-pulled SCVs will stave off all pressure.

No, you will miserably die with this kind of defence if he has many Sentries. All SCVs at the natural should be pulled and 4-5 Bunkers is safer against Gateways all-ins (which are different from things like 4 or 5g pressure after expand).

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
Forge Expands. These are a bit strange, in the context of a standard game Terran can not really punish it because cannons maul marines

You should at least attempt to Bunker rush it. Even if only 2 Marines get into the Bunker before the Cannon is done, you will deny mining at his natural for such a long time that it will be worth it.

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
As a response to a Forge expand, Terran can choose to continue with safe play

No, no, no, certainly not. 3 armor completed at 12-13 minuts is not bearable with standard safe play. If he gets away with his FFE you have to be greedier yourself. Triple OC should be the standard answer I think, with proper scouting you should be able to defend +1 armor 5/6/7g.

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
First, Colossus. Upon scouting that Colossus tech is on the field, it is important to get a second Starport out in order to be able to make 3 Vikings at a time.

I don't know. If he only gets 2 Colossi it's a bit of an overreaction, and since you cannot know at the time...

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
While the Starport begins construction, a single Marine should be stimmed to scout for a third base. Two scenarios will come of this, either there is a third, or there isn’t.

There shouldn't be, Protoss know better than taking a fast third (i. e. before seeing the Terran has one) with Colossi. I never see Protoss having already started a third with Colossi when I reach their third with my first 2 Medivacs poke. Ask rsvp or monk but I don't think this is viable. They first scout your third then reactively get their own a bit later.

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
If there is no third expansion present for Protoss, it is crucial to know his composition, and/or his building infrastructure. The things that Terran should look for are Stalker counts, and Gateway counts. If there are a large number of Stalker being fielded by the Protoss player, or a large number of Gateways, it is usually indicative of a two base Colossus all-in incoming.

The best sign is, there are already 2 Colossi when you reach their ramp as 2-bases Colossi all-ins want to reach 3 Colossi fast.

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
The second is that Protoss rushed a third base and can already defend it with Storm. This is a very difficult thing to deal with

Fortunately enough that never happens since mass Gateways and perhaps one Council is currently the best Protoss can achieve to defend Medivac pressure if they go 1 gate double expand. Storm won't be out in time to defend the first Medivac poke. Ask rsvp or monk for confirmation but I never saw such a thing, even in a 1 gate double expand against 3 rax medivacs configuration.

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
There are also random 8 gate Storm all-ins that do occur, however these can be dealt easily with, by making large amounts of bunkers.

You need to create a choke with Depots/buildings too.

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
Against double Forge mass gateway play, Terran will win the VAST majority of his games using 4-6 Medivacs and a large bio force crashing directly against the Protoss army.

Maybe if the Protoss player refuses to tech some kind of AoE, but why would he?

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
If the Protoss is forcefielding his ramp to buy time, Terran can load up a single medivac and fly it over them to try and force a Zealot attack and to try and snipe Sentries.

What? And the Protoss player doesn't have any Stalkers to snipe this stupid attempt?

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
Terran will win a lot with the 4 Medivac timing.

Terrans should NEVER win with a 4 Medivac timing. Never, ever. Protoss players who lose simple 4 Medivacs timings did some huge mistakes or used bad builds.

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
When setting up the lategame, 12 Orbitals should be the point at which Terran begins to suicide SCVs.

Totally arbitrary figure. Why not 6 or 9 or 16?

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
The ultimate Terran composition is roughly 10 Marauders, 6-10 Medivacs, 6-8 Ghosts, and the rest of the supply being in Marines, with roughly 20 scvs on the map.

I beg your pardon? There are no Vikings in your composition, your 120 Marines army will melt so badly to 6 or 8 Colossi… No, the ultimate Terran composition is probably something like BCs/Ravens/Vikings/Ghosts (not attainable on most maps anyway), and the ultimate Terran bio composition is something like 20-30 Ghosts, 15-20 Vikings (important to shut down Colossi) and rest MMM—perhaps 10 Speedreapers too to deal with Warp Prism harass. I think EmpireHappy and ThorZaIN play things like that (only ThorZaIN uses Speedreapers though). Anyway it's certainly not nearly pure Marine with insufficient support.
Jazzman88
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada2228 Posts
August 31 2012 13:23 GMT
#16
On August 31 2012 21:40 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
[*]8:30 Choose to make a third Command Centre, or two more Barracks.

No, 9:30 is the right time to choose between a third or 2 more additional Barracks. If you want to write a guide about standard TvP, you should emphasize the difference between those two choices, how you should be more conservative with your army if you went faster third, how you can pressure harder with 5 rax before third, etc.

Show nested quote +
On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
Also, take this time to start getting the rest of your addons and a fourth gas. In order, after the original techlab, you want a reactor, a techlab, another reactor, and a third techlab. Leaving you off with three techlabs and two reactors.

Why not mention the possibility to get 2 Reactors + 1 Tech Lab as opposed to 2 Tech Labs + 1 Reactor on your initial Barracks, and discuss the respective advantages of each?


A couple of things (and forgive my liberal snipping of the original post; I'm trying to keep this relatively concise):

1. The correct timings in the Bomber build are: 8:30 - Barracks 4 and 5, and 9:30 - 3rd CC. You deviate from that set-up only based on map and player. For instance, on Condemned Ridge I might place 3rd CC @8:30 and add additional Rax after, just because of the large size and need to macro. You shouldn't be deviating from the 8:30 then 9:30 mark unless there's a good reason - Bomber wants to be aggressive with this build to get and sustain a macro edge, and the five rax of production is a good way to keep the Protoss defensive. An in-depth analysis of the specific tactical and strategic choices that this ordering forces would best be left to another place, but suffice it to say that with THIS BUILD, Bomber's build, the 'standard' choice is 8:30 - 2x Rax -> 9:30 - 3rd CC. That's just how the build progresses in a standard vacuum. I've watched many replays of Bomber playing this build, and almost every time the Barracks come down it's 8:30, and the CC after.

2. True, there is a POSSIBILITY to get 2 Reactors and a Tech Lab on your intial 3 Barracks, but the point is that Bomber's build allows you to squeeze every mineral for what it's worth early on, meaning you end up with tons of Marines. The reason the two Tech Labs get thrown down is to provide the capability (after Barracks 4 and 5 get a Reactor and TL respectively) to produce 4 Marines and 3 Marauders at a time, which can REALLY help deal with a Colossi/Immortal force. If the Protoss goes for a Colossi-heavy army and a later third, it's very possible to get 6 Vikings, crank as many Marauders as you can, and just faceroll him because your Marines can shelter behind more Marauders. In addition, because this build sacrifices a little bit of early gas, the 2 Tech Labs help you get your upgrades quicker once your midgame gas starts to roll; and ideally you want Stim, Shells, and Shields by the time you try to flatten the Protoss.

There is a guide to Bomber's build very specifically already, so if there's any questions that require Bomber's replays, you can search that up. Because this is Thaniri's guide and it differs from my guide to Bomber's build, I won't link it directly to prevent the discussion from side-tracking, but if you need additional info, it's there.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
August 31 2012 13:28 GMT
#17
On August 31 2012 22:23 Jazzman88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2012 21:40 TheDwf wrote:
On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
[*]8:30 Choose to make a third Command Centre, or two more Barracks.

No, 9:30 is the right time to choose between a third or 2 more additional Barracks. If you want to write a guide about standard TvP, you should emphasize the difference between those two choices, how you should be more conservative with your army if you went faster third, how you can pressure harder with 5 rax before third, etc.

On August 31 2012 10:25 Thaniri wrote:
Also, take this time to start getting the rest of your addons and a fourth gas. In order, after the original techlab, you want a reactor, a techlab, another reactor, and a third techlab. Leaving you off with three techlabs and two reactors.

Why not mention the possibility to get 2 Reactors + 1 Tech Lab as opposed to 2 Tech Labs + 1 Reactor on your initial Barracks, and discuss the respective advantages of each?


A couple of things (and forgive my liberal snipping of the original post; I'm trying to keep this relatively concise):

1. The correct timings in the Bomber build are: 8:30 - Barracks 4 and 5, and 9:30 - 3rd CC. You deviate from that set-up only based on map and player. For instance, on Condemned Ridge I might place 3rd CC @8:30 and add additional Rax after, just because of the large size and need to macro. You shouldn't be deviating from the 8:30 then 9:30 mark unless there's a good reason - Bomber wants to be aggressive with this build to get and sustain a macro edge, and the five rax of production is a good way to keep the Protoss defensive. An in-depth analysis of the specific tactical and strategic choices that this ordering forces would best be left to another place, but suffice it to say that with THIS BUILD, Bomber's build, the 'standard' choice is 8:30 - 2x Rax -> 9:30 - 3rd CC. That's just how the build progresses in a standard vacuum. I've watched many replays of Bomber playing this build, and almost every time the Barracks come down it's 8:30, and the CC after.

2. True, there is a POSSIBILITY to get 2 Reactors and a Tech Lab on your intial 3 Barracks, but the point is that Bomber's build allows you to squeeze every mineral for what it's worth early on, meaning you end up with tons of Marines. The reason the two Tech Labs get thrown down is to provide the capability (after Barracks 4 and 5 get a Reactor and TL respectively) to produce 4 Marines and 3 Marauders at a time, which can REALLY help deal with a Colossi/Immortal force. If the Protoss goes for a Colossi-heavy army and a later third, it's very possible to get 6 Vikings, crank as many Marauders as you can, and just faceroll him because your Marines can shelter behind more Marauders. In addition, because this build sacrifices a little bit of early gas, the 2 Tech Labs help you get your upgrades quicker once your midgame gas starts to roll; and ideally you want Stim, Shells, and Shields by the time you try to flatten the Protoss.

There is a guide to Bomber's build very specifically already, so if there's any questions that require Bomber's replays, you can search that up. Because this is Thaniri's guide and it differs from my guide to Bomber's build, I won't link it directly to prevent the discussion from side-tracking, but if you need additional info, it's there.

Ups, OP talked so much about standard TvP that I forgot it was about Bomber's build... Which is precisely not (yet) standard. My bad.
Thaniri
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1264 Posts
August 31 2012 19:35 GMT
#18
I`m OK with constantly rewriting this until you guys thing it is perfect. Thanks for a GM posting here!
I want to keep reminding everyone that I am writing this from my experience, I really do win almost every game that Protoss goes double forge with mass gateways with just 4-6 medivacs. I really do

TheDwf: I was going to do the mass quote reply thing, but couldn`t format it, so fuck it!

I was doing the rewrite from 24:00-2:00, so I did miss some stupid stuff like Vikings in your composition and making TURRETS to defend DTs

Protoss army has lower dps, if Ghosts are controlled perrfectly.

No.. its 8:30

I`ll go more in to detail about DT harass then.

In my experience all attempts to pressure forge expands are futile.

I`ll take more about pylons and chronoboost then.

The engineering bay block is for stalker first players, otherwise it is just a waste of money.

In my experience (you`ll see the phrase a lot) Protoss tries to take their third base with Colossus.

I win a lot of games with the 4 medivac timing, or at least gain myself large advantages.

The Stalkers MUST BE IN THE MAIN BASE OR THE PROTOSS DIES. So doing this 'stupid' medivac lift is worth it. This is the only comment in the whole thread that frustrated me t.t.

9 Orbitals are roughly 3 bases worth of income, 12 is 4 bases, that way you basically have infinite scans.

16 Vikings.

I'm pretty confident that Bomber's build is the shining golden standard of tvp.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 11h 33m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 241
Livibee 159
ProTech89
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 849
Stork 2
League of Legends
Grubby4714
Dendi1535
Counter-Strike
tarik_tv5770
fl0m1617
Stewie2K856
Fnx 402
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King197
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor360
Other Games
summit1g8543
ViBE221
Maynarde148
Pyrionflax148
JuggernautJason10
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick43602
BasetradeTV76
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta37
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 41
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler78
League of Legends
• masondota2920
Other Games
• imaqtpie2134
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
11h 33m
Replay Cast
1d
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 10h
WardiTV European League
1d 16h
MaNa vs sebesdes
Mixu vs Fjant
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs goblin
Gerald vs Babymarine
Krystianer vs YoungYakov
PiGosaur Monday
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
WardiTV European League
2 days
Jumy vs NightPhoenix
Percival vs Nicoract
ArT vs HiGhDrA
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
SKillous vs uThermal
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Classic vs Cure
FEL
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
FEL
5 days
FEL
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
FEL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 2v2 Season 3
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.