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[G]TvZ - A 4-rax Biomech

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 17:14:15
July 17 2012 04:12 GMT
#1
Overview: When I first switched to terran, I was still playing in the past, playing outdated builds from a year or two ago (i.e. 9:30 marine/tank pushes, 1-base reactor hellion, etc). It was really frustrating because I felt like no matter how hard I macroed or how well I positioned my units, I could never really get an edge on zerg. I was having SO much trouble, feeling like I was forced into either turtling on 3 bases, trying not to die and slowly starving or forced into attacking at timings I THOUGHT would work, but never seemed to do any damage.

And then one day I suddenly understood the matchup. I cannot explain how it all fell into place, but suddenly I just understood how to win. I had a sudden revelation of some really basic principles that drive all of TvZ:

+ Show Spoiler +
1) Zerg is weakest IMMEDIATELY after an engagement. If you win an engagement, however marginal, box and GO. You have exactly 27-47 seconds to do damage before zerg can have reinforcements; during this time you can do drone damage, snipe queens, kill off creep, etc.
2) Zerg CANNOT kill off a huge marine/tank push AND a drop in the main AND a drop at the 3rd. In order to engage, the zerg has to bring a lot in order to win. That being said, drops allow your army to move forward and your army moving forward allows your drops to be effective.
3) The more early aggression you do, the later the drone saturation occurs. This means that you can ACTUALLY keep up with the zerg economy if you're doing pressure.


Using these principles, I started to piece together a build of my own along the lines of MKP-style. I have no idea if this is actually a totally standard build, but I have spent a lot of time developing this build on my own and refining it.

The Idea: With the newest patch, queen range has been upgraded and zerg's have begun to start playing very greedy with fast 3rd's before gas. The most notable build is the 6 queen build. However, the biggest weakness to this build is the fact that zerg delays gas. Because of this delay, zergling speed is delayed, banelings are delayed, etc, providing an opening for a strong timing attack at 7:00-8:00 with a lot of marines. That being said, keep in mind that this build is focused on playing a zerg who DELAYS GAS. There are a certain set of considerations I have added in case zerg takes an early gas, but the idea behind this build is built around this delayed gas.

In addition, the lategame portion of this build is inspired by the way Polt handles lategame TvZ. The idea of switching to primarily metal to combat BL/infestor is my preference; I feel like mech is much much more effective and powerful in the lategame, especially with the lategame air transition to Ravens or BCs.

Build Order:
+ Show Spoiler +
A 1rax expand. I don't use food timings, but I will give the most specific timings I can:
10 depot
12 rax
15 orbital
16 CC
16 depot
20-24 additional 3 rax
Constant marine/SCV production until 7:00
@7:00 attack + 3rd CC + all 4 gases (can be staggered)
Add Factory, double ebay, and add-ons
Starport, +1/+1, stim/CS (letting the factory sit idle)
@12:00 attack with MMM + take 3rd
@3rd base (~12:00), add 2 gas, 3 rax, and start tank production
@hive tech, add 1-2 factories, start thor production


Early game:
+ Show Spoiler +
With the first 2-3 marines, it's important to look around for overlords, hold the watchtowers, etc. When you scout his main base, you should be able to note the amount of initial lings and decide whether or not you need a conditional bunker at your natural. Generally, this is if you see 6-8 lings pop out.

With a standard scout after barracks, you have the ability to scout freely until about 4:00. If zerg DOES NOT put down a gas before 4:00, we know reliably that he can't have zergling speed until ~7:00, 3 minutes after the first gas is put down. This means we're free to go on building 4 rax, delaying OUR gas until 7:00.

The key at this point is to make sure you hold your watchtower. Marines will be able to deny individual and small groups of lings access to the tower. This does 2 things: allows you to get a scout out to the 3rd base of your opponent, and lets your 7:00 attack come as more of a surprise.

Scout the 3rd around 6:30-7:00. If you see it, move out with ~17 marines @7:00, rallying the rest to your bunker in case of some kind of odd counterattack.


The 7:00 Attack:
+ Show Spoiler +
When you push out at 7:00, the 3rd will be building, it may even be done or nearing completion. With 17 marines versus a handful of queens and slow lings, you should be able to do some damage, most of the time even killing or cancelling the hatchery. Kite the slowlings as much as possible and stick to walls to avoid getting surrounded, normal stuff.

If, at the very worst, you lost all of your marines and didn't kill the hatchery, NO PROBLEM! You forced a lot of lings, killed a lot of them, and probably also messed up some injects as well. In addition, you delay that hatchery as a useful hatchery for a little. At home you've been teching up, making SCVs out of 3 orbitals, and MULEing. If you timed this well and didn't micro horribly, you should find that you are actually even or close to even in the worker count by 9:00. CELEBRATE.

If, at the best, you kill the hatchery and maybe any defense, etc, don't feel pressured to attack into the main. You have an economy advantage now with a secondary MMM attack incoming. Just pull back, leave a marine to spot the 3rd. You can patrol around the ramp and stop creep spread for a little, but don't let your marines stay there too long and don't attack into a spine crawler.


The Followup:
+ Show Spoiler +
During your initial attack, you should have 4 gases up, building SCVs, and starting to get your tech up. @100 gas, you put down factory + 2 ebays, followed by 2 techlabs shortly thereafter. During this time, you're getting EVERYTHING at once...kind of zergy style. By macroing correctly, you're at about 50 SCVs by 9:00, and should actually be even with the drone count if your attack went well.

@12:00, your first pair of medivacs comes out, making your marine/marauder safe against zergling/baneling. Check by your 3rd, expand and start moving out to your opponent's base.

Most people at this point would be worried about a bunch of zergling/baneling just sitting in the center of the map, but IN MY EXPERIENCE, because we did that early attack and delayed the drone saturation, zerg will just be finishing drone saturation and actually have almost no units out at this point. You can actually just go straight for the jugular and start attacking directly into his base, ignoring most of the creep spread. We can start being BEARSHIT aggressive.

If you ever find yourself in a situation where you don't think you can spread well enough and trade, just load everything up in medivacs, drop somewhere else. Without the aid of infestors/mutas at this point in the game, zerg is powerless to stop the medivacs.

Behind this pressure, we're securing a fairly safe 3rd, making walls, rallying to the natural with constant MMM production. Seriously, don't stop making medivacs...you should have like 12. +2/+2 is going up, +1 vehicle weapons are started, and tanks are starting to get produced. Yay!


The Midgame:
+ Show Spoiler +
After this attack, the goal is to be constantly aggressive, sending drops and macro pushes EVERYWHERE. Remember the principles from earlier as you move armies out, drop in the main, etc. The idea is to delay the lategame and use constant aggression to fuel the infrastructure needed to switch to your lategame composition, including upgrades/factories/starports. During this time, you're getting +3/+3 for bio and vehicle weapons, ship weapons when you finish +3 vehicle attack. This will set you up for your MMM/thor/viking defense against BLords.

Think of a marine/tank army as a mobile anchor: you can push out to the middle of the map (with the help of drops), get close to a ledge or an easily accessible choke, and start dropping from your main army. The zerg CANNOT engage both your drops and your main army. Against mutas, you can generally settle for more direct engagements as marine/tank is superior in straight up engagements with good positioning.

Remember to constantly presplit and always take note of your unit positioning. You want to be everywhere at once, and more importantly, everywhere the zerg isn't. This is by far the hardest part of the game that will require a lot of APM and multitasking to smoothly continue attacking while producing/teching. This part will be frustrating and difficult because it will feel like the zerg can always crawl back into the game no matter how much damage you do. Just remember to keep attacking.


The Lategame:
+ Show Spoiler +
When hive begins morphing, the lategame has officially begun. Begin replacing your tank production with thor production off of 2-3 factories while continuing to push. This will ensure that you have the thor counts needed to combat an early ultra push or early brood lords. Either way, though, all the aggression you've been doing all game should delay these lategame armies quite a bit. The midgame is ~12:00-16:00, 16:00 being about the general timing of hivetech.

You can continue attacking until an actual BL/infestor army takes shape. At that time, you want to pull everything back, build a bunch of defensive bunkers, take all the expansions on your side of the map, and just play very defensively with MMM/thor/viking.

With 3 starports (2 with tech lab), you can start the lategame air transition. I personally like going through BC first because Ravens require upgrades, energy, and a ton of gas (relative to build time), all of which takes time. You can free up supply for the air transition by trading drops (which are generally good against BL/infestor anyway. The goal at this point is to defend with mostly metal while trading your bio for air. Continue your vehicle/ship upgrades. On 10 geysers, you can transition with double ups. You also want to be getting the infrastructure for BFH, the final piece of the puzzle.

After sacing SCVs, trading drops, keeping BL/infestor at bay, your final composition should look like hellion/thor/viking/BC + Ravens in the late late game. With this composition, just move your way slowly forward and starve the zerg player using cost-effective engagements, turret rings, and planetaries in chokes.

Your final infrastructure should look like: 5 bases/10 geysers, 8 rax from the beginning of the game, 3 techlab factories, 1 reactor factory, 1 reactor starport, and 2-3 techlab starports. You should have 3/3 bio, and at least 3/0 mech and vikings. You should also have a healthy number of orbitals, about 8, in order to continue MULEing. Planetaries can be used at chokes, etc. The extra barracks also allow you the flexibility to go back into marine production should the super late game end up with base trady situations and low resources.


Some Considerations:
+ Show Spoiler +
1) If your opponent opens with an early gas, completely eliminate the 7:00 timing from the build. You'll want to take 2 gases fairly early, get CS/stim and marauders, and prepare for a potential bust. When you get your first 2 medivacs, move out, take your 3rd, and start your aggression. The initial attack will have a lot less power to it and will take you a lot longer to get across the map effectively, but you still set yourself up for an aggressive midgame.

2) If, after you destroy you opponent's 3rd with the 7:00 timing, and they just sit on 2 bases, they can either be doing a followup HUGE bust or going for some kind of 2-base tech. The best way to handle either is to just play conservatively, making sure your wall is well-defended and you're prepared to handle 2-base muta/ling or infestor/ling at ~11:00. If you're against mutas, you can stop marauder production and start tank production, going for more direct marine/tank engagements.

3) If you get busted really early by a baneling or a roach bust, all you have to do is survive until your upgrades/medivacs finish. One thing that is always frustrating is being busted over and over and over again, feeling like you can't get on your feet. But just remember that your tech will catch up and you'll suddenly be just fine.


Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +
APOLOGIES! My computer died recently and I lost all of my replays. I will try to get some out as soon as possible. AND NOW DROP.SC IS HOLDING MY REPLAYS HOSTAGE WTF


So that's my TvZ build! It's quite a stretch to open with such a heavy bio force into almost a pure mech force, but it has worked quite well for me. Give me some feedback and criticism, I'd like to know if I missed or overlooked something.

EDIT: Added in some of the armory upgrade timings. Again, this is quite ambiguous as it depends on how the game flows and how you end up dealing damage, etc. Also added in the final infrastructure (buildings) in the "lategame" section.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Hyak
Profile Joined April 2011
United States8 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-17 06:23:23
July 17 2012 06:22 GMT
#2
Sooooooooooooooooo, does this work or what? What is your win-rate etc And when can we expect replays?
SirPinky
Profile Joined February 2011
United States525 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-17 06:48:54
July 17 2012 06:46 GMT
#3
I see you've invested a lot of time in this guide. I appreciate your contribution to the community.

A couple things missing (which I dont see, maybe I missed): 1) What is your current ladder standing. I think this is very important considering the build order and broad strokes you painted here. MKP has been known to do the hybrid bio/mech build but he is MKP and has very high apm and game sense. I'm high master T/GM Toss and even I cringe at the APM involved in this build. 2) Where is the mention of upgrade timings? I notice MKP tries to upgrade both. I see this is the biggest flaw in this type of build and is not mentioned in your guide. As a mech player, I try to get double armory as fast as possible. So what is your focus here, bio or mech - doing both makes a large weakness in this build for timing attacks. 3) Where are the replays. For someone who obviously invest much effort in a guide, I think a few replays to review would be helpful. 4) With the new queen upgrade it is in big dispute between many Terrans to harass or not. Myself, I have chosen to harass but I am considering making a faster 3rd these days. With many zerg making 6-8 queens as a common build it can easly kill any marine harass with transfuse and a couple lings. All that you have done is wasted minerals later in the game if you overproduce one bio units
How much better to get wisdom than gold; to get insight rather than silver!
boxturtle
Profile Joined December 2011
United States224 Posts
July 17 2012 06:52 GMT
#4
On July 17 2012 15:22 Hyak wrote:
Sooooooooooooooooo, does this work or what? What is your win-rate etc And when can we expect replays?


It's a weird version of select build. MKP did something similar, got ahead with the 4rax then proceeded to get annihilated by mass sling bling festors.

I too want some replays. I always liked the idea of this build but didn't think it worked very well in practice.
Ucross
Profile Joined July 2012
United States1 Post
July 17 2012 08:11 GMT
#5
I like the concept as well. Look forward to some replays. There is something in my gamestyle mechanics that doesnt allow me to play like this and I would like to pin point it.
Thyriaen
Profile Joined December 2011
Switzerland41 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-17 08:28:50
July 17 2012 08:27 GMT
#6
I am doing a similar opening since the last patch too ( Adding 3 Rax after my 1RaxFE and getting 1 gas before my 3rd), but moving out at 6 minutes to get watchtowers and poking his natural ( as my secondary scout ) and then do a timing push with my combat shield ( first 100gas -> cs ). The followup i use is simlar ( going fast medivacs and heavy dropplay and steady agression ).

For me ( Diamond; playing mostly against masters ) it works pretty well ( you can even outright kill fast 3rds ) although i have trouble doing a lategame transition you describe relying on thors - i will try that out.

Maybe you can look at my replay until the threadcreator uploads his
http://drop.sc/223186

Thanks a lot for sharing
iNViCiOUZ
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany364 Posts
July 17 2012 08:37 GMT
#7
When/which mech and air upgrades do you research? When do you get them?
Do you skip 3/3 for bio?
Embir
Profile Joined January 2011
Poland567 Posts
July 17 2012 10:04 GMT
#8
On July 17 2012 13:12 SC2John wrote:
The Midgame:
After this attack, the goal is to be constantly aggressive, sending drops and macro pushes EVERYWHERE. Remember the principles from earlier as you move armies out, drop in the main, etc. The idea is to delay the lategame and use constant aggression to fuel the infrastructure needed to switch to your lategame composition, including upgrades/factories/starports.

Think of a marine/tank army as a mobile anchor: you can push out to the middle of the map (with the help of drops), get close to a ledge or an easily accessible choke, and start dropping from your main army. The zerg CANNOT engage both your drops and your main army. Against mutas, you can generally settle for more direct engagements as marine/tank is superior in straight up engagements with good positioning.

Remember to constantly presplit and always take note of your unit positioning. You want to be everywhere at once, and more importantly, everywhere the zerg isn't. This is by far the hardest part of the game that will require a lot of APM and multitasking to smoothly continue attacking while producing/teching. This part will be frustrating and difficult because it will feel like the zerg can always crawl back into the game no matter how much damage you do. Just remember to keep attacking.


I wanted to emphasis on this quotes. I appreciate work you put into this guide - but all I can read basically says - outmultitask Zerg as hell to have an even chance. Frankly, in situation where I outmultitask my opponent works a lot of strategies. The question is how to win against Zerg with even skill as you, because now, it is nigh impossible.
Sianos
Profile Joined April 2011
580 Posts
July 17 2012 10:25 GMT
#9
I also play 1 rax fe but into 3 rax with a cs timing at 8 minutes and ~ 20 marines, which almost allways kills a greedy 3rd. I follow it up with standard marine-tank-medivac play and transition into a mech based army when i have a 4th base. I start +1 attack for mech when i need the armory to get +2+2 and when i set up my 3rd base i take my gases asap and start my 2nd armory to research +1 air attack. I then constantly upgrade to 3-3 bio, +3 attack for mech and +3 attack for air and slowly add more factories. When i have a 4th base i build a 3rd and 4th armory and start upgrading armor for mech and air. When the game goes on longer a mech based army is better to hold positions aggainst ultra/ling/infestors and +3 attack vikings are really good vs blords. The bonus instead of going straight into mech is that you have +3+3 for your marines, which makes the marines incredible strong for dropplay and of course you can be way more aggressive in the midgame.
MstrJinbo
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1251 Posts
July 17 2012 11:08 GMT
#10
If, at the very worst, you lost all of your marines and didn't kill the hatchery, NO PROBLEM! You forced a lot of lings, killed a lot of them, and probably also messed up some injects as well. In addition, you delay that hatchery as a useful hatchery for a little. At home you've been teching up, making SCVs out of 3 orbitals, and MULEing. If you timed this well and didn't micro horribly, you should find that you are actually even or close to even in the worker count by 9:00. CELEBRATE.


When exactly are you building that 3rd orbital? It is not on your build order.

APOLOGIES! My computer died recently and I lost all of my replays. I will try to get some out as soon as possible.


My personal opinion is that the replays are the most important part of the guide. Hopefully you get them up soon.
Skwid1g
Profile Joined April 2011
United States953 Posts
July 17 2012 11:26 GMT
#11
On July 17 2012 19:04 Embir wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 17 2012 13:12 SC2John wrote:
The Midgame:
After this attack, the goal is to be constantly aggressive, sending drops and macro pushes EVERYWHERE. Remember the principles from earlier as you move armies out, drop in the main, etc. The idea is to delay the lategame and use constant aggression to fuel the infrastructure needed to switch to your lategame composition, including upgrades/factories/starports.

Think of a marine/tank army as a mobile anchor: you can push out to the middle of the map (with the help of drops), get close to a ledge or an easily accessible choke, and start dropping from your main army. The zerg CANNOT engage both your drops and your main army. Against mutas, you can generally settle for more direct engagements as marine/tank is superior in straight up engagements with good positioning.

Remember to constantly presplit and always take note of your unit positioning. You want to be everywhere at once, and more importantly, everywhere the zerg isn't. This is by far the hardest part of the game that will require a lot of APM and multitasking to smoothly continue attacking while producing/teching. This part will be frustrating and difficult because it will feel like the zerg can always crawl back into the game no matter how much damage you do. Just remember to keep attacking.


I wanted to emphasis on this quotes. I appreciate work you put into this guide - but all I can read basically says - outmultitask Zerg as hell to have an even chance. Frankly, in situation where I outmultitask my opponent works a lot of strategies. The question is how to win against Zerg with even skill as you, because now, it is nigh impossible.


You can out multi-task a zerg of equal skill. It's much harder to defend aggression from multiple place than it is to attack from multiple places. If your drops are doing 0 damage you're doing them wrong/the Zerg is playing better.
NaDa/Fantasy/Zero/Soulkey pls
ArchAngelSC
Profile Joined April 2012
England706 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-17 11:46:39
July 17 2012 11:41 GMT
#12
On July 17 2012 13:12 SC2John wrote:
The Followup:
During your initial attack, you should have 4 gases up, building SCVs, and starting to get your tech up. @100 gas, you put down factory + 2 ebays, followed by 2 techlabs shortly thereafter. During this time, you're getting EVERYTHING at once...kind of zergy style. By macroing correctly, you're at about 50 SCVs by 9:00, and should actually be even with the drone count if your attack went well.

@12:00, your first pair of medivacs comes out, making your marine/marauder safe against zergling/baneling. Check by your 3rd, expand and start moving out to your opponent's base.

Most people at this point would be worried about a bunch of zergling/baneling just sitting in the center of the map, but IN MY EXPERIENCE, because we did that early attack and delayed the drone saturation, zerg will just be finishing drone saturation and actually have almost no units out at this point. You can actually just go straight for the jugular and start attacking directly into his base, ignoring most of the creep spread. We can start being BEARSHIT aggressive.

If you ever find yourself in a situation where you don't think you can spread well enough and trade, just load everything up in medivacs, drop somewhere else. Without the aid of infestors/mutas at this point in the game, zerg is powerless to stop the medivacs.

Behind this pressure, we're securing a fairly safe 3rd, making walls, rallying to the natural with constant MMM production. Seriously, don't stop making medivacs...you should have like 12. +2/+2 is going up, and tanks are starting to get produced. Yay!


Curious as to what league you are. I'm playing in mid masters level and found that no matter what sort of damage you do early on (denying 3rd, forcing and killing a ton of units/drones) the zerg still has infestors up by 10-11 minutes.

Replays would be nice

On July 17 2012 20:26 Skwid1g wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 17 2012 19:04 Embir wrote:
On July 17 2012 13:12 SC2John wrote:
The Midgame:
After this attack, the goal is to be constantly aggressive, sending drops and macro pushes EVERYWHERE. Remember the principles from earlier as you move armies out, drop in the main, etc. The idea is to delay the lategame and use constant aggression to fuel the infrastructure needed to switch to your lategame composition, including upgrades/factories/starports.

Think of a marine/tank army as a mobile anchor: you can push out to the middle of the map (with the help of drops), get close to a ledge or an easily accessible choke, and start dropping from your main army. The zerg CANNOT engage both your drops and your main army. Against mutas, you can generally settle for more direct engagements as marine/tank is superior in straight up engagements with good positioning.

Remember to constantly presplit and always take note of your unit positioning. You want to be everywhere at once, and more importantly, everywhere the zerg isn't. This is by far the hardest part of the game that will require a lot of APM and multitasking to smoothly continue attacking while producing/teching. This part will be frustrating and difficult because it will feel like the zerg can always crawl back into the game no matter how much damage you do. Just remember to keep attacking.


I wanted to emphasis on this quotes. I appreciate work you put into this guide - but all I can read basically says - outmultitask Zerg as hell to have an even chance. Frankly, in situation where I outmultitask my opponent works a lot of strategies. The question is how to win against Zerg with even skill as you, because now, it is nigh impossible.


You can out multi-task a zerg of equal skill. It's much harder to defend aggression from multiple place than it is to attack from multiple places. If your drops are doing 0 damage you're doing them wrong/the Zerg is playing better.

This isn't actually entirely accurate. Zergs I'm playing these days have a spore and spine at each base. That, combined with a queen is enough to delay a drop for a long time, throw in a couple of units and you can't drop zerg.

If your drop is doing any damage these days it's because the zerg is bad.

I agree that if a zerg is trying to defend all your multiple drops with just units while holding off your main army then yes, it's much easier to drop than to defend. But if a zerg is doing that then it falls under the catagory of the zerg being bad (aka, worse than you)
Douillos
Profile Joined May 2010
France3195 Posts
July 17 2012 14:35 GMT
#13
Hey,

I tend to do this lately also except:

- I go 15 CC into 4 rax into CC (3rd CC before gas)
- I push a bit earlier and bring a few scvs ( lets say I commit more than you do)
- I push at 2-2 on 3 bases not 1-1 on 2 bases.

Of course this is the build if no bust incoming, if I see gas I go 4 rax into gas and quick marauders.

Too bad you dont give any kind of info on your armory upgrades etc. which is the interesting part IMO... Cause for now, without replays or anything, well this is kind of un-interesting...
On my side i go straight BIO-> AIR, upgrade ship plating first. I only transition on 8 gas and if I really have to. I find bio mech to be un-interesting: either pure bio into air or pur mech into air (but thats another story...)
Look a giraffe! Look a fist!!
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
July 17 2012 14:42 GMT
#14
On July 17 2012 19:25 Sianos wrote:
I also play 1 rax fe but into 3 rax with a cs timing at 8 minutes and ~ 20 marines, which almost allways kills a greedy 3rd. I follow it up with standard marine-tank-medivac play and transition into a mech based army when i have a 4th base. I start +1 attack for mech when i need the armory to get +2+2 and when i set up my 3rd base i take my gases asap and start my 2nd armory to research +1 air attack. I then constantly upgrade to 3-3 bio, +3 attack for mech and +3 attack for air and slowly add more factories. When i have a 4th base i build a 3rd and 4th armory and start upgrading armor for mech and air. When the game goes on longer a mech based army is better to hold positions aggainst ultra/ling/infestors and +3 attack vikings are really good vs blords. The bonus instead of going straight into mech is that you have +3+3 for your marines, which makes the marines incredible strong for dropplay and of course you can be way more aggressive in the midgame.


^ This is what I do. A lot of people are asking how I get the upgrades going there. Because it's a slow gradual change from bio to mech and we're attacking nearly nonstop, we're able to go straight to +3/+3 for bio, adding on vehicle/ship attacks as we're transitioning into tanks and vikings. There's plenty of gas to be used for upgrades considering you're going MMM for most of the game. And, as stated, you end up with a strong mech army with the ability to do really powerful drops.

I see you've invested a lot of time in this guide. I appreciate your contribution to the community.

A couple things missing (which I dont see, maybe I missed): 1) What is your current ladder standing. I think this is very important considering the build order and broad strokes you painted here. MKP has been known to do the hybrid bio/mech build but he is MKP and has very high apm and game sense. I'm high master T/GM Toss and even I cringe at the APM involved in this build. 2) Where is the mention of upgrade timings? I notice MKP tries to upgrade both. I see this is the biggest flaw in this type of build and is not mentioned in your guide. As a mech player, I try to get double armory as fast as possible. So what is your focus here, bio or mech - doing both makes a large weakness in this build for timing attacks. 3) Where are the replays. For someone who obviously invest much effort in a guide, I think a few replays to review would be helpful. 4) With the new queen upgrade it is in big dispute between many Terrans to harass or not. Myself, I have chosen to harass but I am considering making a faster 3rd these days. With many zerg making 6-8 queens as a common build it can easly kill any marine harass with transfuse and a couple lings. All that you have done is wasted minerals later in the game if you overproduce one bio units


1) It's a very intensive multi-tasking build, but no more multitasking is involved other than going straight bio in TvZ. The more and more metal you're adding to the mix, the slower the game becomes though. I'm in diamond league...haven't been practicing near as much as I've wanted to recently (like once every 3 days), but I have had fairly good success with this strategy even with poor mechanics.

2) Look above for the upgrade timings. I get double ebay, rush straight to 3-3 bio ups, add in vehicle/ship upgrades once I'm comfortably on 3 bases and starting to make tanks/vikings. Generally I'll delay ship upgrades until after +3 vehicle attack and use only 1 armory. The idea is using the aggressiveness of MMM to attack early, transition into a standard marine/tank army for the midgame, and then slowly trade drops for mech for the lategame. The army composition for each part of the game is strong with only a few weaknesses; the only danger is staying on bio too long or switching to mech too early.

3) Computer crashed, lost all of my replays. I'll get to it soon, although I've been playing protoss as of late.

4) Marines are still more mobile than queens, can poke around, deal some damage, etc. If zerg is forced to make ANY lings, then the marines have still done their job. The idea is just to make sure the zerg feels SOME pressure, and most of the time, you still end up doing some damage because queens are slow as hell getting to one area.

When exactly are you building that 3rd orbital? It is not on your build order


It is. At 7:00, you attack with marines while building your 3rd CC. The way your economy works out, you have JUST ENOUGH extra minerals at that point in time to build the CC while constantly producing marines/SCVs.

You can out multi-task a zerg of equal skill. It's much harder to defend aggression from multiple place than it is to attack from multiple places. If your drops are doing 0 damage you're doing them wrong/the Zerg is playing better.


We're getting into drop theory with this. To dispute the idea that drops are impossible to do against a good zerg, let's look at the situation: zerg is being constantly pulled across the map, from their main to their 3rd, etc. A big marine/tank push is coming down the center. It's actually totally impossible for zerg to split units to defend both drops and a marine/tank push at the same time. Spine crawlers are unlikely, given that terran is attacking so aggressively and trading units constantly. Drops help the main army get into position, and when the army is engaged, drops are 100% more effective. Either way we're planning to lose the drop or the main army, but terran will do damage either way. In addition, because you're going so heavy on medivacs/bio early on, you can afford to do a lot of double drops.


Sooooooooooooooooo, does this work or what? What is your win-rate etc And when can we expect replays?


Yes, it works, much like going bio works. My win rate is kind of ambiguous right now as I actually haven't played terran much as of late and I don't really practice much at all anymore. I'll get the replays out as soon as I can, but my computer crashed and I lost all of my replays.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
hersenen
Profile Joined November 2011
Belize176 Posts
July 17 2012 15:28 GMT
#15
The only thing I can imagine a terran player doing in their mind when they pick this build is:

"Please don't scout me. Please don't go banelings. Please have 0 spines."

I've seen players do builds like this before but they get 3rax + 1 techlab for combat shields and then do a pure marine push to the 3rd. It usually works too. I feel like that version is better because it gets faster tech and achieves basically the same thing as this build.
MstrJinbo
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1251 Posts
July 17 2012 15:32 GMT
#16
On July 18 2012 00:28 hersenen wrote:
The only thing I can imagine a terran player doing in their mind when they pick this build is:

"Please don't scout me. Please don't go banelings. Please have 0 spines."

I've seen players do builds like this before but they get 3rax + 1 techlab for combat shields and then do a pure marine push to the 3rd. It usually works too. I feel like that version is better because it gets faster tech and achieves basically the same thing as this build.


This build is only used against a gasless 6 Queen build. With The early attack timing it is unlikely for banelings to be a factor even if scouted.
ArchAngelSC
Profile Joined April 2012
England706 Posts
July 17 2012 16:19 GMT
#17
On July 18 2012 00:32 MstrJinbo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 18 2012 00:28 hersenen wrote:
The only thing I can imagine a terran player doing in their mind when they pick this build is:

"Please don't scout me. Please don't go banelings. Please have 0 spines."

I've seen players do builds like this before but they get 3rax + 1 techlab for combat shields and then do a pure marine push to the 3rd. It usually works too. I feel like that version is better because it gets faster tech and achieves basically the same thing as this build.


This build is only used against a gasless 6 Queen build. With The early attack timing it is unlikely for banelings to be a factor even if scouted.


Also, the main goal is to deny the 3rd, which will have no spines.
Landlubber
Profile Joined July 2012
Netherlands1 Post
July 17 2012 16:20 GMT
#18
Im in no means a pro in sc2 (yet! ) but ive been playing for the past 2 and a half weeks and got to diamond, literally slaughtering zergs. Whenever I get matched up with a zerg, I get expansion before barracks. Usually around 15-16 SCV's. When I start Expansion I stop building SCV's for a moment, untill I have walled off with barracks (3-4 depending on the map), I then continue with making both CC's into orbitals. Continue making SCV's and marines, and drop my mules at my 2nd base. Around 6:00-6:30 I have around 15 marines and with these guys I push out to the supposedly third on the zerg, if they have on up it means they barely have any army, giving me the time of either sniping queen / drone but sometimes even the hatch. During this skirmish get double upgrades and starport. Start dropping at 2 / 3 places at once. Get My third out around the 12:00-13:00 minute mark.

With using this tactic I got like a 80% win rate against zergs up to Diamond. Only problem I faced with this build is quick roach pushes. But later on (if you keep up with the upgrades) you will have a big abundance of minerals. I havent really refined this build yet, so what I do with this is get a load more barracks, some more orbitals, extra bases, etc. Continuessly dropping at multiple positions is just very very hard to hold off as zerg.

I will try to attach a (couple) of replay's about this tactic aswell, cause it works for me, so you might get something out of it aswell!

ps. sorry for bad english, not first language!
Yarrr
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
July 17 2012 16:51 GMT
#19
On July 18 2012 00:32 MstrJinbo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 18 2012 00:28 hersenen wrote:
The only thing I can imagine a terran player doing in their mind when they pick this build is:

"Please don't scout me. Please don't go banelings. Please have 0 spines."

I've seen players do builds like this before but they get 3rax + 1 techlab for combat shields and then do a pure marine push to the 3rd. It usually works too. I feel like that version is better because it gets faster tech and achieves basically the same thing as this build.


This build is only used against a gasless 6 Queen build. With The early attack timing it is unlikely for banelings to be a factor even if scouted.



Thank you. It IS possible for the zerg to get banelings upon scouting this, but they will have to cut a queen or two and probably delay their upgrades by a bit. Which...even if you lose your marines in a bad engagement, still forced a non-stndard reaction from zerg. And yes, the 3rd actually can't have spines up if you attack at 7:00. And generally the natural won't either if your opponent is relying on queens.

The reason why I don't like the combat shield push is because it makes a delayed push when zerg has speed. Combat shields are great, and getting them started early is great, but I feel much more comfortable with an earlier push that achieves the same purpose. It's debatable as to which one is better, but I prefer 4rax: earlier push, more infrastructure.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
MstrJinbo
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1251 Posts
July 17 2012 17:11 GMT
#20
On July 18 2012 01:51 SC2John wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 18 2012 00:32 MstrJinbo wrote:
On July 18 2012 00:28 hersenen wrote:
The only thing I can imagine a terran player doing in their mind when they pick this build is:

"Please don't scout me. Please don't go banelings. Please have 0 spines."

I've seen players do builds like this before but they get 3rax + 1 techlab for combat shields and then do a pure marine push to the 3rd. It usually works too. I feel like that version is better because it gets faster tech and achieves basically the same thing as this build.


This build is only used against a gasless 6 Queen build. With The early attack timing it is unlikely for banelings to be a factor even if scouted.



Thank you. It IS possible for the zerg to get banelings upon scouting this, but they will have to cut a queen or two and probably delay their upgrades by a bit. Which...even if you lose your marines in a bad engagement, still forced a non-stndard reaction from zerg. And yes, the 3rd actually can't have spines up if you attack at 7:00. And generally the natural won't either if your opponent is relying on queens.

The reason why I don't like the combat shield push is because it makes a delayed push when zerg has speed. Combat shields are great, and getting them started early is great, but I feel much more comfortable with an earlier push that achieves the same purpose. It's debatable as to which one is better, but I prefer 4rax: earlier push, more infrastructure.


Yeah. I've seen a 6 queen build done by IdrA which puts a baneling nest and macro hatch up shortly after the third. In that case banelings might just barely come up by the 7 min push, but I think you need to delay the marine push a bit to get them out. Thats assuming the attack is at 7 min. 7:30 or 8 min attack like the combat shield push it becomes very possible for banelings to finish.
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