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First off, I'd like to say I am not a good player (Plat NA) so good players if I am totally wrong about something tell me, or anyone if I am incorrectly stating things about the VOD I am trying to base this topic on please call me out on it. If this ought to be moved mods feel free to move it.
I was watching the daily of Bomber playing on Metropolis verus OstoJiY at RBBG, where Bomber went gasless 1 rax FE into 3 rax and ended up getting a really fast third with double upgrades. He ended up with a mostly MMM Raven core composition. Using Ravens to snipe infestors with HSM and other units. It seemed oddly effective, but the game went on forever so maybe not.
So I tried this style on Antiga against a buddy about the same skill level, and got crushed via econ. Basically he just took a lot of bases and over ran me with constant army.
What it seems like is, that becasue Metropolis is so large you can be greedy and get upgrades faster and safer than other maps. So how can we try to use this style but on less safe maps or should we?
So with the same guy, what I tried was a hellion opening (failed hard for me, again I'm plat) and a gasless FE into 4 rax (this was an Onaha and went pretty far late game but I eventually lost) both with normal upgrades instead of the early double E-Bay. (I'd post replays, but again I'm not good and I don't think it could represent the idea well, but it seems like in theory it could work and maybe some pros or masters+ have tried this and could share replays/VOD)
Both seem to have potential but seems there could be issues with both. The hellion opening gets away from the core idea of MMM Raven, but this could be said of marine tank medvac style as well. So i don't think this is a huge problem, except if there are early roaches (ie early two base, not RR) which can be a pain and typically requires a few raduers. Possibly the delayed econ of a hellion opening over a gasless FE could be a problem. It seems the end composition requires a lot of production structures and add-ons. Approximately 3 ports at first on 3 base (not sure what is ideal, Bomber did this with his build and seemed to be a really good number) and a ton rax becasue we aren't building tanks, or maybe if we do at one point we won't be making too many too long. The only major advantages I see to the hellion opening into the SK style is it can potentially allow faster starports and looks like it would go into standard marine tank play. By potentially allowing faster starports I mean it's possible, but is it worth doing? I don't think so because we will just add a lot of rax to start main army comp and seems to delay upgrades like stim and combat shields. I think gasless FE into 4rax might be better becasue you can get a pretty decent sized marine army up fast, you have a faster expansion, and when you add the gasses you can spend your first gas towards something in your main army comp (rax add ons, infantry upgrades etc). So right off the bat you have a pretty decent sized bio army much like how a TvP style medvac push could go.
So with all that in mind, what are your thought about an "SK style" comp, such as why is it good or bad. How should we get there (hopefully in a map independent build)? Also if you have advice to Raven micro (using HSM, where they should be in the army, etc) I, personally, would appreciate this as I had a very tough time even when I split them into seperate hotkeys.
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I...... haven't seen that game, but it could be good! MKP has already shown that the tankless style is possible, and maybe funnelling that gas into ravens could be the way to go.
Personally I think that the requirement of control is going to drive me nuts (ravens are STUPID and fly straight to death if you group with everything else, so probably going to group them differently)
I wonder how drops will work, maybe just a raven flies around with auto turrets? certainly that would be less risk, but I think keeping the ravens together will be better. Time will tell :D
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@ reikai
Well drops worked pretty normal verus a infestor style zerg and I haven't tried to use autoturrets as drops becasue HSM cost a lot of energy, but not sure how it would work out verus mutalisk play. Espeically considering mutas can out run HSM, so maybe it will force a tech switch from the zerg if you have a good raven count because dancing mutas everywhere to save them would be pretty annoying. They obviously don't want to lose their mutas and as long as HSM is casted into the ball a good player will run them away from both HSM and your army. Maybe a raven 2 medvac drop would be less risky if you can HSM what ever mutas are trying to stop a drop, but sounds really hard to pull off, but no clue on tis idea.
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Playing without tanks works, but unfortunatly I don't think a Plat player will pull it off. It requires constant pressure and the ability to keep up good enough macro at the same time. You have to trade well and keep him from getting a "deathball" sized army, which is very difficult.
The Raven aspect is pretty straightforward and is undoubtedly the best way to deal with zerg t3. I think the bio transition is the natural way to go if you want as quick Ravens as possible since bio requires little gas once you are fully upgraded (which you will be by 17~ min when BLs should be nearing).
HSM deals alot of damage per supply and PDD + a small number of vikings totally hardcounters broodlord+corruptor (and due to your early game trading with bio, he should not be able to sit with 10+ infestors with full energy). All you have to worry about are ultralisk but since you are already making marauders, he would be mad to start producing ultras.
In essence this style is the ultimate to deal with zerg t3, but it is very taxing. You HAVE to trade well in the midgame to prevent him from having a ton of infestors without delaying t3 tech significantly. It is basically a buildup where you want 3-3 on bio and 4 starports producing ravens + vikings before he gets broodlord tech. If you achieve this and you have kept his infestor number fairly low you are in a great position.
I do NOT recommend flying around with the ravens. You have dropships that can achieve this just as well and they do not cost a ton if you should run into a few infestors that will simply fungal a few times.
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Halby is a top Masters terran who has been doing this style since the start of the game, calls it "Uber Ups", with over 150 examples on his youtube channel.
http://www.youtube.com/user/HalbyStarcraft
The big difference is the "suicidal aggression" part of it. It's not a "wave" attack where you build a big army and go kill him, you constantly get in his face and make him spend all his APM and infestor energy killing well-split marines, spending all his larva and gas on not-Tier 3 because he has to survive and defend all the time. Since you don't need a defended death-push, it's no thing to drop in 2-3 places at once, because one of those 3/3 stimmed Marine squads is going to get killed last and take a whole lot of drones/hatches/tech with it. And if it doesn't, then the next 2 drops happening in the next 60 seconds will.
I have been using it since Bronze, and for two players of an equal skill level it's incredibly powerful. I have considered TvZ an auto-win ever since I started using it, and being in Gold I am awful.
See also
Idra vs. Metalcard
Taeja vs. Sheth G1,G2 in the Red Bull Battlegrounds
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So I tried this on ladder and got my ass kicked, but I think its becasue I am bad at raven micro, splitting and don't know how to play the style right. Maybe I was just to passive but I can post replays later if you guys want.
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FYI Dragon is a guy that does a lot of raven play, both TvZ and TvT ... he streams a lot so you can check him out.
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Hi, did you do this vs me XD (WAZUP BRUH). There were quite a few problems. The ravens dont need to be that early, you need a 3 base econ to support a good army that incorporates ravens. You need double upgraded bio and ravens. Delay them ravens, get more bases, MMM will defend early on. 3 bases are cool yo!
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Yeah...personally i find splitting vs infestors the hardest thing ATM, baneling split on their own are EZ-PZ now and dodging storms is dangerous but not as unforgiving...vs infestors if you clump for a SECOND you pretty much lose the game on the spot.... i cant figure out exactly how to engage a mass ling/infestor army quite yet, ive tried pre-splits with hold position, patrol command splits, etc etc.. but i keep getting swept away unless i go mech(which is a whole different ballgame, cause a smart Z just rushes broods!)
Gonna try some raven play in a little bit see how it goes(masters T)
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I think Raven/bio or marine raven or etc etc work decently. Maybe not at the professional level, but no one seems to do it, so who knows? 
I've done it a bit back then, it worked quite well on ladder. I opened with hellions into banshee, so that I have time to get a bunch of ups up to do a sort of timing (didn't refine it, but you could get +1/+1, Raven energy, HSM, Durable materials, building armor, etc... you could get most of these and hit at 13-14, depending on if he gets infestors or mutas, etc.)
Like vBr said, it has potential. If you can keep all your Ravens alive, that could make it powerful.
About flying ravens though, (and i'm not sure if you're referring to people flying like 5 to 20 ravens around or not), flying just 1 raven around can be effective, to put down 2-4 turrets at a base. It annoys the zerg and if you're harassing all over they'll often not notice something and could lose all their drones. Also, since a Raven isn't armored, it takes several fungals to kill it, so I don't think it's too much of a loss if an Infestor is able to kill it. It'll take the zerg more effort to kill it than for you to fly it around, and I think the reward outweighs the risk. Maybe if you're really ahead though, you don't need to do it. But if you need a way to get back into the game, I think that could be a good idea.
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speaking for the zergs here... mass ling bane with fast upgrades is what you really need to respond to this style. Adding in mutas if he has dropships and infestors if you find the time, and just continue to outmacro him .. That's pretty much it. Lots of lings and banes.
Another option if the map is right is a good creep spread and hydras thrown in. That actually works surprisingly well. It's more difficult to deal with drops, hence the map being right; but there's more firepower in your army too.
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Alright so it seems like I probably need to wait on HSM and Ravens a bit, been practicing with other people and again seems viable but definately needs to be fine tuned. Myabe 3 base before ravens would work, then mass ravens. Any suggestions for timing pushes before ravens, cause I don't want to let the zerg just expo everywhere. I'm thinking a push similar to a TvP medvac push and then go for an earlier third, but it seems like I really need to be careful if the guy has mass banes becasue this could wreck the army if i split bad. Also not sure if this leaves me vunerable to mutas, which I think it would but mass turrets and decent rallies might work.
My problem with going double upgrades for 1/1 is that it really cuts into my army.
Also guys thanks for the input, a lot of the suggestions are really good.
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On June 09 2012 07:35 Sircoolguy wrote:
Alright so it seems like I probably need to wait on HSM and Ravens a bit, been practicing with other people and again seems viable but definately needs to be fine tuned. Myabe 3 base before ravens would work, then mass ravens. Any suggestions for timing pushes before ravens, cause I don't want to let the zerg just expo everywhere. I'm thinking a push similar to a TvP medvac push and then go for an earlier third, but it seems like I really need to be careful if the guy has mass banes becasue this could wreck the army if i split bad. Also not sure if this leaves me vunerable to mutas, which I think it would but mass turrets and decent rallies might work.
My problem with going double upgrades for 1/1 is that it really cuts into my army.
Also guys thanks for the input, a lot of the suggestions are really good.
I would open with the build that is commonly known as the demuslim build (google it, there is a post about it on this forum). You set yourself up for a strong timing attack at 9:30 and you already have your third behind. I would then add a second eng bay and an armory really quickly to get that quick 3-3 upgrades. Add many barracks and around the 13-14 min mark you should be looking to get those Raven upgrades and start transitioning step by step. You should take a fourth at the same time if you haven't already and make sure to get those refineries up running early. Scan the opponents Lair a lot of the time to see when it morphs into Hive and the location of his spire/eventual ultra den.
You should probably end up with like 4 starports, 3 with TLs and one with reactor just incase. You shouldn't need Ravens against his t1 and t2 tech, so don't slack on your production macro in favour of getting sooner Ravens, because it is not worth it
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I really want this to work but i don't know if it's possible. Are there any pro replays of anyone well known doing this? I would love to study them.
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I've seen a couple good players try it out, but the cost of ravens didn't pay off like it did in BW. In BW detection is a lot more important, and the splash of irradiate on mutas and use on lurkers/defilers (especially under dark swarm) was so necessary that the science vessel was a lot more useful a lot more of the time. I noted that the sc2 players I saw try just sort of died to attacks in the mid-game.
However late in the game I've seen some sick hunter seeker missile usage when the supply efficiency of the ravens and ability to purchase them becomes important.
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On June 10 2012 14:23 CecilSunkure wrote:
I've seen a couple good players try it out, but the cost of ravens didn't pay off like it did in BW. In BW detection is a lot more important, and the splash of irradiate on mutas and use on lurkers/defilers (especially under dark swarm) was so necessary that the science vessel was a lot more useful a lot more of the time. I noted that the sc2 players I saw try just sort of died to attacks in the mid-game.
However late in the game I've seen some sick hunter seeker missile usage when the supply efficiency of the ravens and ability to purchase them becomes important.
Possibly the best example of the use of HSM lategame:
RazerServyoa vs Liquid Sheth on Antigua Shipyard
http://drop.sc/156502
The battle at ~48:30 is stupidly 1-sided. OH U HAS MAX BL CORRUPTER, I HAS GHOSTIES + RAVENS. 20+ clicks later.. Where's your armies goes?!?
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not sure if ravens are necessary but marine marader medivac is still really strong
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Hmm. very true re people talking about MKP kindof pioneering mmm in TvZ. I'm sure you can make the style work at platinum level. I'm a diamond terran - I haven't tried mmm without hellions but I think throwing in an mmm timing attack designed to take out zerg's third could be a useful tool.
As for ravens, I feel like they're a super strong support unit but probably only worth thinking about when nearing lategame. Needless to say HSM is awesome. Also byebye creeptumors.
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A few Ravens are an easy sell -- cleaning up tumors, supporting drops, spotting burrow traps, warding off mutas - but Banshees seem like a stronger tool for mobile aggressive play when the Zerg isn't muta-heavy.
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On June 10 2012 14:23 CecilSunkure wrote:
I've seen a couple good players try it out, but the cost of ravens didn't pay off like it did in BW. In BW detection is a lot more important, and the splash of irradiate on mutas and use on lurkers/defilers (especially under dark swarm) was so necessary that the science vessel was a lot more useful a lot more of the time. I noted that the sc2 players I saw try just sort of died to attacks in the mid-game.
However late in the game I've seen some sick hunter seeker missile usage when the supply efficiency of the ravens and ability to purchase them becomes important.
I think Cecilsunkure is right, it's a combonation of Ravens being less cost efficient than Sci vessels, and infestors being much better offensive units than defilers. My biggest issue trying this style was fungals and using ravens after HSM was deployed. Mid game pdd doesn't help much unless they go mutas, but then you most likely won't worry about infestors or if they do come up usually in small numbers. At this point int the game ravens kinda become useless after HSM is deployed and even then HSM has 3 less range as fungal so if you want to use them to snipe infestors there is a good chance that your raven ball can get fungal before they get in range. So it seems to me that the mid game is the hardest thing to manage because of how Ravens are set up compared to Sci Vessels (Irradiate cost 75 energy not 150) and the festors make good offensive units where as defilers made better defensive units. So maybe midgame tanks into a later bio raven would work better becasue infestors are a pain in the ass to deal with with just bio.
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EPT
