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After watching Naniwa`s last games in GSL, he pretty much played greedy the whole time. It was like he was betting on the lottery, pure gamble.
Other players, like Stephano, tend to do a very safe opening against zerg 100% time (14 gas / 14 pool). He only does 15 hatch when he sees the opponent is doing the same (for example in Metalopolis close positions). But then we have Sheth, another greedy player. He really likes to do 15 hatch in ZXZ, specially with a late pool.
And we see many other players, like Ret or Idra, who loses because they droned too much. It`s like they don`t correct their mistakes. Everyone knows them as players who likes to make too many drones. But What If this playstyle stands by and it`s actually worthy doing it so? The kings of drones (Idra, Ret, etc.) surely have way more shots to win the game, and they rip apart their opponents who play safe.
What do you guys think? Is it better to be a safe or a greedy player in general? Can you make examples of the best players in the world (koreans and foreigns) and classify if they are a mix of being greedy and safe, or just one or another?
edit: Mods, if this is the wrong specific forum, please move to SC2 Stategies.
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Generally I find greedy play becomes less greedy based on your own skill. Typically, the higher level the games, the more the defender's advantage can be stretched to cover some greedy build.
I've seen top Koreans 15 hatching in most ZvZs for months now, and destroying all the foreigners with it. Of course it's possible than an aggressive player with good enough micro could break it even if your micro and control to defend is pretty good. It's hard to say what is safe or not in ZvZ because no one really plays with perfect micro. Practically, in a tournament setting, it would be about gauging your opponent's skill and making as playing as greedy as you think you can against them (you may not need as many units if his micro isn't so good, etc.) but that's pretty advanced.
For something like just ladder games, it makes sense to me to just play safe. If you're greedy you'll get away with things on ladder you shouldn't be able to get away with if they were better, so it's really hard to say how greedy any non-pro should be.
Players like Idra and Ret probably don't make too many drones, and maybe they need to micro better so they can get away with fewer units. It's weird because these types of macro zergs don't micro that much even though it can help you get away with more drones. Of course that's just what I observe, I'm not as good as them so I'm not really sure.
No one's really playing perfectly so it's impossible to figure out a perfect way to play. It's partially stylistic, although in theory there should only be one correct way to play and everything else loses with perfect play. Perfect play is unrealistic, though, and starcraft is too complicated to ever figure out anything like perfection.
Flash would be the closest thing we've ever seen, although that is BW. He's known for doing greedy eco builds and being really good at holding off any type of all in or whatever. It really isn't about his choice to do that build being the perfect one, so much as he is really good at defending while being greedy. He plays Terran, though, where it's pretty simple, not as complicated as droning for Zerg. It's way harder to pinpoint an exact nuTmber of drones/units you need than whether or not you can hold a fast CC build.
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The best way to play is to have a mix of both strategies. If you become known as someone who always plays greedy, then your opponents will try to take advantage of that (like with IdrA). So a solid all-round player will mix in high aggression / cheese with super fast expand builds to keep his opponent guessing. A good example is MKP. He is known for his trademark micro and aggression, but he regularly mixes in very greedy builds (especially in the MLG finals last night).
Of course, stuff like this only matters in a tournament environment where there's the possibility to learn the playstyle of the opponent. On the ladder just pick a style that works for you and go with it.
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Standard>cheese>greedy>standard is how it's always been.
Ideally, you'd want to be diverse and well versed with all three so as not to become predictable. Standard is pretty much defined as how much you can get away with economically without dying to cheese though, so if you only want to focus on one style standard is the way to go.
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If you scout properly and know the ins and outs of the game and your opponent, you know exactly what corners you can cut and what chances you can take. You can be as greedy as possible, and certainly more greedy than your opponent... therefore, giving you the necessary edges you need to win the game. That's usually what you need to do to beat your opponent, especially at the highest levels of the game.
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I've watched GSL vods in korean and one comment by commentator Ahn ( AKA Engine) included "What I've noticed
from Naniwa's play is that he is really good at getting more ahead when he is ahead of the oppenent in a game"
I really think its a matter of style. For example, MC, who is one of the best protoss in the world, pretty much all- ins
most of the time when he is acually capable of (pretty good ) macroing into the late game. I prefer Naniwa's style cuz
im more of a macro oriented player. One thing to notice is that if you want to play like MC, youve gotta have exceptional
micro but not every player can micro like MC  . However, I do think that a good player should be able to mix macro
and all ins in their BO2, 3 or whatever, cuz if the opponent knows that you play the same all the time, its easy for him to
snipe you with the build they've prepared. This is the problem with foreigners in GSL. Huk lost a lot cuz all the korean
players knew that he 1 gate FE vs T, FFE vs Z and ive seen him sniped by that so many times.
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In the future (I'm guessing 2-3 years from now) we'll see the BEST korean terrans playing greedy in 90% of their matchups. The best players know how to play greedy and still defend the most well executed cheeses.
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I think aggressive is best, it forces the opponent down a more predictable tech path. I think opening 15cc is fine though
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Its very simple, you need to be as greedy as possible while staying as safe as possible if that makes any sense.
You need to get the most out of every build while defending any possible allins with minimum amount of units.
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I think it's not a matter of playing greedy or not, you just want to get some sort of advantage over your opponent. Some like to aim for a bigger economy, others for faster tech. You just need to scout and be sure where your edge is. If your opponent fast expands and you expand as well but later than him, you know you are behind in economy. This is especially true in mirror matchups.
In my opinion it's just a stylistic choice. Greedy players try to get away with as little as possible, while teching players try to hit as hard as possible. I do think that you should aim for the extremes when making that choice, since staying in the middle usually means you have no strengths, eventhough you aren't completely dead against something either.
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play save, loose to greed and crush allins...
play greedy, loose to allins and punish save...
play allin, crush the greed and loose to save...
Whatever you do, does not care.
Just do it full and no between.
If you play a gamble game and decide not to gamble,
well, you lost before the game starts.
Welcome in the world of sc2...
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Early dronegambling is the Zergform of doing some "close my eyes, cross my fingers, hope he doesn't notice" - 1/2-base rush.
Like doing such a rush, it's an easy win if your opponent doesn't react accordingly, because you just get far ahead. That being said, I think that the pros you mention are nothing like those casual players. It's rather that if you have good scouting and good knowledge about the game, you know what your opponent will be capable of.
A player like Ret 15hatches, because he knows that the only way to lose if he does it properly in ZvZ, is that his opponent goes for some blindcounter build. Everything else comes down to him not fucking up, so it's basically his game to lose, not his opponents to win - which is the situation you always want to be in, when you reach a decent level.
I think the best players are those, which play greedy and either react extremly well to what their opponent is doing, or which play greedy and create a safeness, by backing up their greed with aggression, but it also differs a lot from race to race.
Examples:
MarineKing is very greedy, but he changes his builds a lot and he goes from greedy play into very strong aggression and doesn't give his opponent the room that he needs to punish MKPs greed.
Nestea is the other category. He basically tries to just swallow attack after attack after attack and keeps on getting ahead by trading equally of a better economy. --> that's what basically every macrozerg aims for
For safe players, I'd say Genius is a good example. He tends to get very late 3rd bases, but gets all the safe techs he wants/needs like upgrades and colossi first of 2base.
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It should not be possible to keep up by playing extremely conservative on a pro level. Playing "greedy" should be a norm for progamers, however the corners they cut must be based on their ability to overcome difficult situations with raw skill and having a clear plan on how to mitigate the disadvantages, rather than hope that these situations will not happen.
In Brood War you're very rarely going to see the exact same builds and strategies being played on pro level, high amateur level (such as foreign bw), and ladder. Higher level strategies tend to be more difficult to use and much more easily punished even by lesser opponents if they're not executed correctly, so instead of failing terribly at replicating the way a progamer plays, it is wiser to learn some of the older, staple builds.
The same will likely happen more and more in SC2 as the time goes on.
Edit: I think the way Ret approaches the game in its infancy is the most correct one (for the progression of strategy, sadly not so much for immediate benefit to himself). He attempts to beat every obstacle at the last possible moment, with the smallest possible investment, foregoing any redundant safety net in favor of amassing a greater advantage instead. With proper commitment and training, this is what a progamer should strive to do in all the matchups.
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In my opinion the strife should always be to play as safe and standard as possible. You should not play greedy unless you know how to play standard and safe.
I recommend playing standard and safe untill you reach grandmaster or pro.
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Isn't this essentially a case of risk versus reward? If you play greedy, you risk dying to someone who follows an aggressive build, likewise if you play too safe your opponent can use that to his advantage and be greedy and be economically ahead. Its about attaining a balance and a sense of how the game is going to play out, which will only come with experience. I hit masters this season and I'm still learning to read the game better.
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I think the more players are greedy the better. Especially at high level play. You see so many 1 Gate > Expand, 1 Racks > Expand and 15 Hatches. Players know how to fend off the early aggression, but that doesn't mean its gone altogether and that people will never lose to it.
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I'll quote Engine the Korean Commentator on this.
"offensive < defensive < greedy < offensive < defensive < greedy < ..."
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Play greedy when you can be greedy; play safe otherwise.
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On April 24 2012 00:58 Fus wrote:
In my opinion the strife should always be to play as safe and standard as possible. You should not play greedy unless you know how to play standard and safe.
I recommend playing standard and safe untill you reach grandmaster or pro.
Which is better, to play safe and win against all allins and loose to all greed, or play greedy and win against all safe play and loose to allins?
Personally I'd rather play greedy and learn what I can get away with, what/how I need to scout and force myself to defend with bare minimum. This is ofcourse just mostly for ladder, as when people get to know you, you have to mix different strategies in.
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well playing greedy most of the time will work on high level, but you need to mix it up a few times for sure.
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EPT
