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This is a Platinum/Diamond discussion. I searched, albeit not very hard, and found very few posts on defending the 2 Rax since it was popularized by MKP a year ago. The oversimplified consensus, I believe, is to 15h and use drones to buy time.
I believe I'm about 50% on my W/L against a standard 2 Rax. I go 15h/15g/14p against Terran every time. I pull 4-6 drones to drive out the early SCV and first few marines. I put a drone or two on the SCV then use the rest against the marines. Concurrently, I try to drop a spine inline with the hatch.
I'm experiencing a shift in execution since the last discussions:
* A pro showed other Terrans how to nestle bunkers against the ramp, giving the SCV 50% protected build time.
* Peopled figured out that multiple SCVs are better than a single SCV.
http://drop.sc/160952/d
In the case here, Terran did both a proxy 2 Rax at my 3rd and brought 3 SCVs. I scouted it, pulled drones, attempted to pick away SCVs, but ultimately failed. Where is the fault in my decision making? What should I be doing?
I HATE that the 2 Rax is "free". At worst, some marines are lost for a number of drone kills. At best, the hatch goes down and T wins.
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2 rax is not what it once was. Still, proxy 2 rax can be a bitch to deal with and can take a lot of small adjustments on your part.
Personally, I would start with your build order. Gas is not as necessary early on as it once was, so delaying the first geyser until about 18 supply is a simple fix that gives you an extra drone to help hold off the aggression as well as a better overall income in general as minerals are more important than gas earlier in the game.
My personal opener is 14 hatch 15 pool 18 gas. This gets my hatchery down a little bit earlier with my pool popping at roughly the same time. I scout with my 13 drone, and if he smells anything fishy, I just throw down 2 spines in my Nat and call it a day.
Sometimes, a build like this can set you behind vs a makarax into 15 CC, but should keep you relatively safe vs all forms of early aggression. That is more of a problem where you need to lean what to look for while scouting than anything else.
Another issue in dealing with 2 rax aggression, especially in the lower leagues is micro and your lack of it. The important thing in dealing with any 2 rax play is 1) keeping as many drones alive as possible, and 2) protecting your spines while they build. Stopping the bunker is obviously ideal, but not always possible. Keep these goals in mind with how/when you move your drones around and you should be ok in the long run.
Hope this helps!
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Well generally speaking there are a couple of checks you should attempt to achieve in order to fend of a 2 rax rush.
In the most simple structure I can think of, it would somewhere along theses lines, in order of importance:
Prevent the bunker for finishing.
Get a spine crawler in range of the bunker, out of range of the marines.
Clean up the rush (strangling SCVs, the bunker, any marines).
Now, there are a number of steps that are important in order to do this. The most important thing, however, is to delay it as much as possible. Killing off the building SCVs (at the bunker is great, but if you can catch the SCVs building the Barracks, you get an insane amount of time) is one of two very important ways of doing this. The other is chasing away the initial 1-2 marines. Simply box an appropriate number of drones (you can get away with 2-3 per marine easily, but get more if you feel uncomfortable with that amount) and start chasing down those marines. Get them as far back as possible, and attempt to pull back wounded drones.
Plop down a spine at your natural as per the priority list, queue at least one queen as your money permits, and get zerglings to actually kill the rush. It's a tough spot to be in, but it is definitely something you'll eventually learn not to fear.
Edit: Oh yes, and your build order. A 2 rax is much easier to hold if you go for pool before gas. Any gas or seconds you shave off of Metabolic Boost won't actually help you hit any timings better, and simply delays your spines, zerglins and queens. All things necessary to fend 2 rax rushes.
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I don't blind 15h 15g 14p vs T anymore. I 10 drones scout.. which will give you a huge tell if 1 rax expand, 2 rax proxy, 2 rax in base or hellion.
Personnally, vs a 2 rax proxy or if I don't scout a rax in base (and no gaz), I go 14g 14p.. and depending of how things go I'll either expand and mass drone or go for a baneling bust.
Vs 2 rax in base, what you said works well. Basically once the spine is in place you're mostly safe. But watchout as on some map they can still go behind minerals or stuff like that to continue the pressure.
A thing to keep in mind is that when you see a rax build, save your larva to turn them into lings. Don't be too aggressive with your drones/lings.. just protect your spine.
Now for the replay, it was clear that the guy was proxy raxing mostly all-in. Skip gaz, build pool asap. You want to throw down your spine asap.. (In that game, you waited too much). Also, you didn't bring enough drones and he killed a few. Use the mineral+right-click trick to go through the scvs and kill the rine. Also, since you knew he was doing this, you could have blocked the bunker near the ramp.. so either it'll be down later or farther where he couldn't hit your spine.
Lastly, I'd say that in case like that, don't feel bad to either cancel hatch or let it die and go speedling/bust. He had nothing at home and had a really bad economy. I agree with you that it gives you a bad economy, but he too has really few scvs, no expo and more importantly, he gives up map control (what hellion gives) so you're free to drone like a madman once you defend it.
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master zerg here. this is why i always go 14 pool, 14 gas, both against protoss and terran. It stops cheese, allows you to safely expand, get a queen out early, and it gives you the ability to deny scouting information and keep your opponent in the dark.
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Actually, more often than not, people seem to agree that doing a 14 p / 14 g build, or a 14 g / 14 p, is actually going to be worse off against a 2 rax rush then a Hatch first would be. To some degree simply because any followup out of a 14/14 build will be comparatively weaker, and as such within the ability of anyone trying to scramble a defense after a 2 rax rush to handle.
But mostly, simply because you're going to need creep to effectively fend off a 2 rax rush with bunkers. Imagine that you spot it and delay your hatch to get out that extra defense a little faster. How long before that spine crawler can actually sit down at your natural? What do you do if he simply decides to bunker contain you, know that there is no creep to ward off buildings? You get into a lynch pin situation, where you either cross your fingers and all in, or cost inefficiently break the contain and play catch up to the Terran player.
At least this is what my experience tells me.
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Yeah, early gas builds are less than desirable vs Terran specifically, and somewhat in general as well.
While 14/14 is going to give you the means to clean up the 2 rax and take map control, you can't really do anything with that control, making it a terrible investment. There are more cost effective ways of holding off a 2 rax. Even building 2 spines, while it may seem like overkill, gives me the freedom to drone up to 25-30 supply without making any other units.
As long as the 2 rax isn't actively killing you, who gives a crap how many marines he has where. If they're not in your base, they don't matter.
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On April 17 2012 03:10 JBNZerg wrote:
Actually, more often than not, people seem to agree that doing a 14 p / 14 g build, or a 14 g / 14 p, is actually going to be worse off against a 2 rax rush then a Hatch first would be. To some degree simply because any followup out of a 14/14 build will be comparatively weaker, and as such within the ability of anyone trying to scramble a defense after a 2 rax rush to handle.
But mostly, simply because you're going to need creep to effectively fend off a 2 rax rush with bunkers. Imagine that you spot it and delay your hatch to get out that extra defense a little faster. How long before that spine crawler can actually sit down at your natural? What do you do if he simply decides to bunker contain you, know that there is no creep to ward off buildings? You get into a lynch pin situation, where you either cross your fingers and all in, or cost inefficiently break the contain and play catch up to the Terran player.
At least this is what my experience tells me.
This was my understanding as well. The creep allows queens, drones, lings, and spines to move near the threat faster, locates additional bunkers further away, and gives a low ground place to plant the spine.
It sounds like I can adjust my build a little bit, most likely just delaying gas a little. I shouldn't be afraid to pull more drones to buy time, by driving everything away, then drop a spine the instant the pool finishes.
I've been 12 scouting, which is timed to get in while a typical rax is still building, a typical refinery has started, but not necessarily enough time to confirm a 2 rax. The rest of it appears to come down to unit control. In typical SC2 fashion, it is harder to defend than be the aggressor.
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Well technically, drones don't get a speed bonus for being on creep, but other than that !
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I have been finding better success with just attacking the bunker with drones, rather than focusing down the scv. I pull 4-5 drones for the bunker that is going down and another 3-4 for the marines, I don't need to kill the marines but you can't let them just focus down the drones attacking the bunker. With 4 drones on the bunker you have the added benefit of possibly having a near instant surround to change and focus down the SCV if the build animation moves him to your side.
I do usually lose a few drones, but it also means there won't be any hellions for a bit to harass due to their own weakened economy.
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Don't take gas until you scout terran getting gas. Drop a spine or two depending on how much all in he goes. Micro workers until you get your lings out.
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On April 17 2012 02:28 Jermstuddog wrote:
Personally, I would start with your build order. Gas is not as necessary early on as it once was, so delaying the first geyser until about 18 supply is a simple fix that gives you an extra drone to help hold off the aggression as well as a better overall income in general as minerals are more important than gas earlier in the game.
My personal opener is 14 hatch 15 pool 18 gas. This gets my hatchery down a little bit earlier with my pool popping at roughly the same time. I scout with my 13 drone, and if he smells anything fishy, I just throw down 2 spines in my Nat and call it a day.
This is what i do, imo there is no need to get gas so fast against terran, the spines will help a lot too!
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if you hold a 2 rax you should win because it is hard for terran to transition into something other than more barracks immediately.
don't make a gas before the pool in zvt. take it at 17 or 18 supply. cancel it when you realize its a 2 rax. speed wont do anything except maybe give you an immediate win because he cant wall in on time with his barracks floating back. relying on that is silly. if you don't cancel the gas on time, simply don't mine from it.
make a spine immediately outside of bunker range when you natural hatch finishes. i think 1 queen helps alot if you make it in the natural because she will have a transfusion ready when it comes down to business. of course she can hit scvs much easier too. but don't make more than one.
other than that, just mass lings and maybe make a second spine if you feel you will need it. keep pulling back. never just give up and attack into bunker prematurely.
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so i think the easiest way to make your life easier is to delay your gas, which everyone has been saying. that's pretty straight forward.
just to emphasize, the other important things you can do against bunker pressure are
1) monitor whats coming across the map and react. put a spine down at your nat immediately if you see more than 1 scvs and marines. do a big drone transfer to your nat and use them as necessary to poke at scvs and chase marines around. this needs to be done or your life will get more difficult very quickly.
2) get a queen at your nat asap - ranged attack and high hp will do a good job keeping marines at bay, just dont let her die.
3) this wasnt talked about enough i dont think - be very aware of how many lings you actually need to hold this off. managing steps 1 and 2 properly can make this easier (you wont need as many lings). one of the worst things you can do is overproduce lings, the terran basically wants this to happen as much as he wants a hatchery/drones dead. this can make his pressure cost effective without even doing any damage. get good at steps 1 and 2, then focus all your attention on this step.
to clarify - 15/15 hatch/pool is the way you want to deal with this. 14 gas/14 pool is not as good. not saying it wont work, but it's not the best way like others have mentioned. aside from the obvious economic advantage, low ground creep is all-important in this situation.
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From Day[9] #428 on DRG v MKP at MLG Winter Arena
"Zerg saved all his larva to build zerglings, tried to get a spine crawler down, got the queen as quickly as possible, and was cross map on Metalopolis and it still seems kinda hard... What that mans is that the Zerg can only really improve his control in that situation."
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Master Zerg here, personally defending a 2 rax is easier by delaying the gas but unlike the other comments i prefer to delay the gas even further until about the 5 min mark. Once i reach this time i double up my gas or even triple if im going ling upgrade heavy. To do this place a spine crawler in your natural to fend off any agression by the terran in the early game and try to form a wall with evo chambers if you opt to go for a upgrade heavy style.
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On April 17 2012 05:32 justnny wrote:From Day[9] #428 on DRG v MKP at MLG Winter Arena"Zerg saved all his larva to build zerglings, tried to get a spine crawler down, got the queen as quickly as possible, and was cross map on Metalopolis and it still seems kinda hard... What that mans is that the Zerg can only really improve his control in that situation."
I'll take a shot at explaining this replay but feel free to argue/disagree. Before I start, let me point out that this is not 2 racks pressure, this is an all in, controlled by MKP, on metalopolis where bunker pressure is incredibly affective because of the nook you can create near the ramp. but yes, sometimes you will do everything right and MarineKingPrime (to reiterate, MarineKingPrime) will still beat you.
To start, I feel like DRG was slightly greedy by going 15/16 hatch/pool instead of 15/15, delaying everything a few extra moments and making this more difficult to defend. next, MKP forced a couple mistakes out of DRG in my opinion. DRG built his spine in the very front (i think cause he panicked, not sure) which made it an easy target and forced a cancel. furthermore, he built a lot of lings and a queen and was unable to rebuild the spine immediately. i think the spine cancel and no rebuild ultimately lost him the game.
i think the queen should've been built at the natural, and ideally it shouldve been built before lings. my thinking is that with a queen and spine up, you can delay a direct engagement if you really have to because the bunker going up isnt as big of a deal since the spine can poke at it and queen can poke at marines trying to engage the spine. lings are needed when you are forced to directly engage, which DRG was. again, this is my opinion of the game.
you also have to consider that this is box situation and MKP made a calculated decision that DRG might be vulnerable to a bunker rush at that point in time (based on so many things we cant really begin to understand).
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EPT
