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I am a platinum level zerg at the moment looking to improve my ZvP. I'm really well practised in terms of dealing with forge first openings which seem to be the most common. I remember reading some protoss players saying that they heavily favour doing FFE because it's the only way to stay on par with a zerg.
However, in a few games recently on ladder I've come across above ramp gateway openings and haven't been too sure about what the optimal response to this is.
For now, my plan has been to take my gas and stay on two bases, and get ready to spine or deflect cheese like dts or void rays. However, when the toss then ends up taking an expansion, it leaves me at odds of what to do next. I usually try and take a third, but it always seems late, and my army seems diluted and weak in these situations and i often lose the first big engagement and the match.
So I was just wanting to know, what's the best way to respond as soon as you scout an above ramp gate?
Thanks 
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On March 02 2012 18:24 jimbob615 wrote:
So I was just wanting to know, what's the best way to respond as soon as you scout an above ramp gate?
I personally prefer to heavily saturate two bases, scout and see what tech they are going for, and either go muta ling into double expand (if he goes robo tech), roach hydra into attacking (if he does any gateway tech - keeping his army size down and denying a third), hydra roach into expanding (if he goes stargate tech - denying his third).
The thing is, ling pressure vs gate expand can be really good ... and really bad. Depending on map. If he can gate nexus core forge safely (which he often can), you will have a tough time breaking him when his core forge and gate 2 and 3 are making a low ground wall off. And it's hard to see that before you have in practice committed to pressure.
If he straight up goes 1 or 3 gate expand, ling pressure is normally quite good. But I've found that on quite a few maps, good protoss players will wall in such a way that I don't have a proper timing to deny / delay the nexus well.
I am mid to low masters, I am kind of wondering the same myself ... I feel that ZvP response to forge fast expand have been pretty well mapped out now but I struggle a bit with gate expands - because to me I feel that the timing of the nexus and gate 2 and 3 are key to determining what the proper response is ... but, those things happens after I 'should' have done the proper response, if you understand what I mean.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Moved to strategy, and tagged.
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Essentially you can't exploit a gateway opening because they can literally go for any tech path, and you'll have a very hard time decipering which one it is. Like the poster above me said, making a round of lings can be quite helpful, but also can backfire and be useless, which sets you behind.
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no replay so i guess general advice is good here. A gate opening will be able to put pressure early. Check with overlord how many gates he made at 5 min. Check again at 7 if he didnt put pressure to assure safety. Place at least 2 overlords around his base to be sure. A gate opening is less economical so you can get away with 2 spines and a lot of drones. If he makes units, you should be able to spot how many and tell if you need to make units.
Sometimes the protoss will just move out and move back so you dont know if he is attacking you. Send a ling to check on his army every half minute to see where its at. If he doesnt move then try to move lings and counter. If he doesnt put pressure then just do whatever you want but usually gateway openings are a little bit aggressive to force units out.
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if you go 14 pool 16 hatch against toss you should take gas at around 21-23 then get speedlings and saturate both bases ( at least 16 drones at both bases) then get a lair, evo chamber, roach warren then grab your 3rd. if you see him going for a timing push/ allin you should be more than prepared because your eco is running and you can produce units out of 3 bases.
if he is taking his 3rd just saturate your 3rd expo and take a 4rd.
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On March 02 2012 19:45 Sated wrote:
Ling pressure is terrible against a 3gate Sentry expand. Making so many lings early on will only put you behind in workers because Forcefields are pretty good against Zerglings.
I like having more zerglings out early for pressure vs 3 gate, because then I don't have to deal with 3 gate pressure. If the protoss have to walk across the map with mostly sentries (which are warped in first), 1 or 2 zealots and 1 probe, I can nearly always pick off the probe, deny forward pylons, snipe a sentry or two, and get my defenses out.
Otherwise, I would have to blindly build 3 spines or die to pressure (spines build too slow), and play defensively while the protoss pressures with 3, then 5 gates (normally).
I find that much harder to deal with than being slightly behind on workers - and then getting ahead on workers (double injects is better than chronoboost still).
My opinion at least. And why I think that against straight up gateway expand where the gates are on the high ground and not part of the wall, it's quite good to pressure with lings - as long as you make the right decision to either continue droning or making units and delay / deny any pushes coming your way.
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On March 02 2012 19:50 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 19:45 Sated wrote:
Ling pressure is terrible against a 3gate Sentry expand. Making so many lings early on will only put you behind in workers because Forcefields are pretty good against Zerglings. I like having more zerglings out early for pressure vs 3 gate, because then I don't have to deal with 3 gate pressure. If the protoss have to walk across the map with mostly sentries (which are warped in first), 1 or 2 zealots and 1 probe, I can nearly always pick off the probe, deny forward pylons, snipe a sentry or two, and get my defenses out. Otherwise, I would have to blindly build 3 spines or die to pressure (spines build too slow), and play defensively while the protoss pressures with 3, then 5 gates (normally). I find that much harder to deal with than being slightly behind on workers - and then getting ahead on workers (double injects is better than chronoboost still). My opinion at least. And why I think that against straight up gateway expand where the gates are on the high ground and not part of the wall, it's quite good to pressure with lings - as long as you make the right decision to either continue droning or making units and delay / deny any pushes coming your way.
you arent even behind in drones if you make a round of lings...you are even in worker count.
with speedlings on the field you can force the protoss to play more catious. he needs to pay more attention on his units than his eco, while you can try to kill some probes,force canons and drone up behind your harrass. a handful of speedlings are definetly worth it
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Im a plat zerg so you shuld probbably not listen to me xD
Annyways, what im doing is starting of with a standard 14 pool 16 hatch drone upp till he gets warpgate and if he is still on one base i just start to produce lings because whatever he is doing (of one base) i can stop it with the right amount of lings. if he just takes the expo i take my third right away and proced as normal (droning up ect) and if he stays on one base longer for voids/dts ect i just make sure i have my evo and spors in time when he can come to me.
I think this is a good idé because eaven if he is expanding we will still be on the same amount of workers and with my production i can comfortably get upp to the drone count i want when he expands.
And yeah, sry for my english!
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On March 02 2012 20:13 RedAprilify wrote:
Im a plat zerg so you shuld probbably not listen to me xD
Annyways, what im doing is starting of with a standard 14 pool 16 hatch drone upp till he gets warpgate and if he is still on one base i just start to produce lings because whatever he is doing (of one base) i can stop it with the right amount of lings. if he just takes the expo i take my third right away and proced as normal (droning up ect) and if he stays on one base longer for voids/dts ect i just make sure i have my evo and spors in time when he can come to me.
I think this is a good idé because eaven if he is expanding we will still be on the same amount of workers and with my production i can comfortably get upp to the drone count i want when he expands.
And yeah, sry for my english!
if you drone up until you see his warpgates go up and he is going for a 4gate you are dead. because thats when he will warp in 4 zealots at his proxy pylon near your base. so while your have 20 lings in production he will be at your base with 5 zealots and 1 stalker...
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i feel there is no way to straight out deny expansion with gate opening, but if u know their tech path ( overlord ) u can get an unholy economic lead against it. just mind u dont die to the first push with lotslotslotslots forcefields. might stall it with lings, then burrow roach and hydra should do the job.
colossus tech will be very weak with such a slow eco. you will roll him if he goes colossus
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If there is a gate way above the ramp, simply don't take a 3rd and scout. It's still the same thing, scout what it is.
- 3 gate sentry expand
- 4 gate
- Dts
- Stargate
- Blink all in.
It's just like beta, also, like you said in your post, Protoss has to FFE to remain on par, so you will also be very far ahead and try to take out their natural should they do a 3 gate sentry expand. A roach ling timing attack is brutal against that timing.
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you dont specify enough , one gate in high ground can mean 2 differents openings. Its not the same Gate core in the high ground with gas up (this normally means sentry expand 1-3 gates) that Gate, nexi , core/forge without gas. First option is low eco if you play standard you are already very ahead, second option its more hard to read, if toss play greedy its similar eco to ffe but early core let toss do strong warpgate timings faster than ffe.
Runbis and ling/roach timmings are strong vs sentry expand , you can delay nexi or disturb easy in wide naturals.
Gate nexi its harder to put in early presure since it run with sim city/wall in and canon. Baneling bust , early roach and same stuff you can use against ffe , works vs gate/nexi too, but same against ffe if you are scouted.. you will be behind.
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On March 02 2012 18:24 jimbob615 wrote:I am a platinum level zerg at the moment looking to improve my ZvP. I'm really well practised in terms of dealing with forge first openings which seem to be the most common. I remember reading some protoss players saying that they heavily favour doing FFE because it's the only way to stay on par with a zerg. However, in a few games recently on ladder I've come across above ramp gateway openings and haven't been too sure about what the optimal response to this is. For now, my plan has been to take my gas and stay on two bases, and get ready to spine or deflect cheese like dts or void rays. However, when the toss then ends up taking an expansion, it leaves me at odds of what to do next. I usually try and take a third, but it always seems late, and my army seems diluted and weak in these situations and i often lose the first big engagement and the match. So I was just wanting to know, what's the best way to respond as soon as you scout an above ramp gate? Thanks
Just expand quickly as usual and check for double gate + keep a zergling at their natural. If they don't do any form of expansion by 6-7 minutes, put up a roach warren and evo chamber. If they're pouring a bunch of chrono boosts into warp-gate tech get the roach warren earlier (5:30-6:00). They're going to be aggressive with likely some form of air and/or 4-gate. If its a little later then its potential DTs or they're just waiting for a larger force. If they have a incredibly high sentry count, put down spine crawlers and get roaches cause they're going to do some FF shenanigans. Stalker before sentry may indicate a aggressive build. Fast double gas = potentially fast tech/aggressive tech (DT/Air/sentry-zealot all-in). In all cases you'll want spine crawlers at the front (minimal 2).
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The way I "exploit" a gateway expand is saturating 2 bases, making extra queens and push creep onto the map. Its easy to take a 3rd or hold off stargate pressure this way. I usally sack and OL around 5:30 - 6min to make sure its not a 4 gate.
The tell sign they are about expand is a pylon on the low ground of their ramp. If you see this just exand and verify that a forge or gateway is also placed on the low ground between the pylon and incoming nexus (if they havent dropped the nexus yet). Usally at this point they will have a ton of sentries so its not worth trying to pressure with lings. Just deny the 3rd, push creep, and expand. If you dont see this just sack another OL for information. (this is usally 7:30 - 8 min)
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If I see gateway wall off as toss, I immediately put down gas and 1 spine crawler in case of early harass. Saturate on 2 bases asap with only one geyser for maximum mineral income. making sure to pay attention to WG research timing and amount of sentries present. The more sentries you see the more likely the build is a 3 gate expand and you can eliminate stargate or dt play. If I see zlot,stalker,sentry make sure you keep scouting if WG is chronoboosted, if so I would pool larva and minerals and sack my scouting OL to determine if 4 gate is coming. If 4 gate is spoted, with the pooled larva and minerals you can instantly build 20 - 30 lings before the 4 gate hits. If no 4 gate then you can make 10 drones instantly and move on Do not forget to put down evo chamber and roach warren at 7:30 - 7:45 to defend against any presure by the toss
Do not over react if the toss pressures with initial zlot / stalker, no lings are needed but the first 4-6. Your spine crawler and 2 queens can fend off this attack no problem. Once 2 bases are saturated (with only one geyser), I make 16-20 lings to apply zergling pressure while I get my 3rd base. With 16-20 lings you can dance around the toss army making sure you dont get FF and drone up behind while taking the rest of your geysers. The toss will most likely apply a sentry heavy pressure around 8:30 - 9min mark. Again do not over react, just pop an extra spine or 2 in your nat and you should be fine against this.
Once you secure your third base just play standard and react accordingly you should be able to out macro the toss if you deny their third. Be weary of FF and always engage to your advantage
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I hate when people say this but i think it does add some credibility to the post so I'll say that I am a GM zerg.
Anyways, that being said I like to take an early third. Not as early as with a FFE, but once I know that they're expanding I like to throw down my third once ling speed has been started or finished. You can hold off early pressure with lings and then at a certain point you'll need roaches. Gateway pressure off 4-5 gates can be pretty dangerous, but if you scout they're not teching up (no gases at the natural) you will know to make roach/ling in time to hold off any gateway pressure. If they are teching, you are free to drone a bit more but still need to make units at a certain point. Also, be sure to scout for any proxy pylons/probes so it makes it harder for them to pressure you.
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EPT
