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Hey I recently asked this in the terran help thread, but it got burried by a couple of pages so I assume it was a bit too complex to ask there, so I'm asking here. Copied + Pasted from the thread:
I see a lot of different ways of dealing with cloaked banshees in TvT (standard 1-1-1 cloaked banshee build), which way is the best provided you're either:
1. Going gasless 1rax expand into 3rax (like ThorZain)
2. Going gasless 1rax expand and then adding double gas and getting a factory+starport
3. Going 1-1-1 without going banshees
4. Going 1-1-1 cloaked banshee yourself
Because I've seen so many different ways at high level play from getting 1viking + 1 raven to going for an engi bay and building turrets to getting vikings without ravens and just saving scans to just saving scans and using marines....
Thanks for all the help, regards.
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Terran has a lot of different options for mitigating banshee harass. I don't really think you should be looking for a "best" way to deal with cloaked banshees. Rather, you should be looking for the minimum deviation from your planned build that allows you to handle banshee openings.
For the builds you listed, I'd look at:
1. gasless 1rax fe -> 3 rax - upgrading combat shields before stim is sensible for marine heavy openings anyway, and it really blunts the effectiveness of banshee play. It's much easier to keep marines alive when they take 3 hits to kill, the banshee ends up doing a lot less damage.
2. gasless 1rax fe -> 1:1:1 - Getting a viking first from your starport is a good general idea against several T openings, and it has the added benefit of comfortably handling banshee play. If you are going for FE into harassment play, maybe you want to make a medivac first for hellion drop or your own delayed banshee opening, but you don't want to do either of these things against a one base cloak opening.
3. Non-banshee 1-1-1 - It's hard to give advice here because the build is so flexible. Pick one of the many counters you have available.
4. banshee mirror - This one is a pretty settled situation. You make banshee, then viking, then raven if he shows you cloak. If he doesn't show you cloak or an expansion, probably you need to prepare for early tank play.
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On February 23 2012 09:24 monkybone wrote:
Mid-master advice. If you are going gasless expand, an engibay at around 5:30 is standard if you can't exclude banshees. If you scout banshees, make a few turrets in key locations and you are completely safe. I'd save a few scans for a little while. If you are already going a 1-1-1 build, build a viking followed by a raven, which is also standard. You can follow this up with banshees yourself.
A viking followed by a raven, does this mean you're swapping your starport with your factories tech lab or do you just build a tech lab on the starport?
Viking -> Build Tech lab on starport -> Raven
or Viking -> Swap with factories tech lab -> Raven is what I'm trying to say.
I guess if you build the tech lab on the starport you can lift the starport and make a reactor when the ravens done and just add a barracks to the now empty tech lab.
Maybe it would even be better to go raven first for detection and then just use your marines to kill the banshee?
@Agenda42
Thanks for the detailed reply, it cleared up a lot of questions I had.
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On February 23 2012 09:49 monkybone wrote:
Swapping with the factory will get the raven out quicker. But you could also build the viking before switching to get that out quicker (it doesn't delay the raven). Don't build a tech lab with the starport itself. It is up to you how to follow this up. As agenda mentioned, if you see no cloak you can suspect a tank/marine attack. I'd get siege mode asap.
EDIT: In my opinion a viking into raven is the superior option compared to straight raven, assuming standard banshee timing. But both might work.
Hmm ok, but if you swap it with your factories tech lab won't that cut into your siege tank production and delay siege mode too long? The opponent ususally follows up a cloaked banshee play into marine+tank all-in so they'll have more siege tanks + faster siege tanks than you if you swap to get fast ravens?
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On February 23 2012 10:42 hersenen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 09:49 monkybone wrote:
Swapping with the factory will get the raven out quicker. But you could also build the viking before switching to get that out quicker (it doesn't delay the raven). Don't build a tech lab with the starport itself. It is up to you how to follow this up. As agenda mentioned, if you see no cloak you can suspect a tank/marine attack. I'd get siege mode asap.
EDIT: In my opinion a viking into raven is the superior option compared to straight raven, assuming standard banshee timing. But both might work. Hmm ok, but if you swap it with your factories tech lab won't that cut into your siege tank production and delay siege mode too long? The opponent ususally follows up a cloaked banshee play into marine+tank all-in so they'll have more siege tanks + faster siege tanks than you if you swap to get fast ravens?
So your opponent gets siege tanks, siege tech, cloak, and banshees...at the same time? o.O
Banshee openers also involve switching the factory with the starport for the tech lab, so you won't be behind...
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I play Thorzain's TvT build exclusively right now. I typically don't scan for tech until ~9:00 and that is only to find out if he is going mech. I compensate for not scanning by committing to hold the watch tower closest to my base to spot aggressive 1/1/1 pushes and rallying the rest of my marines to the outskirts of my base to defend against reapers and be in position for the possible banshee.
If I am close air spawns on a map like shattered or metal, I start my ebay ~5:45 and make sure I have 1 scan available until I can rule cloak out. Larger maps and spawns not close air I won't start my e-bay until 6:15-6:20.
If they did go cloak banshee, I will usually end up losing a handful of marines and a couple of scvs while I get turrets up but I haven't ever ended up behind from a cloak banshee opening (faster CC = more scv production and his cost of time mining gas and his investment in tech etc). It's a little greedy not getting blind turrets since I'm not scanning earlier for tech, but it has worked out well for me so far.
Replays on request.
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I go reaper first 9/10 times in TvT
If I scout banshees, it's raven first out of Starport and combat shields on Marines.
then I follow up with banshees of my own.
Works every time.
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On February 23 2012 10:54 Whatson wrote:
So your opponent gets siege tanks, siege tech, cloak, and banshees...at the same time? o.O
Banshee openers also involve switching the factory with the starport for the tech lab, so you won't be behind...
True, but if you go 1rax gasless expo into 1-1-1 I'm wondering if it will still be out in time. Of course if you go 1-1-1 without an expansion yourself you'll have no problem.
Basically will the raven + viking be out before a cloaked banshee can destroy your mineral line but still give you enough time to get your own siege mode before your opponents siege mode kicks in? Obviously your opponent will have siege mode first because they didn't do a 1rax expand and got the gasses faster.
I suppose you'll have to use at least one scan if you go viking + raven because the first cloaked banshee will be there long before your raven is done.
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On February 23 2012 11:08 hersenen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 10:54 Whatson wrote:
So your opponent gets siege tanks, siege tech, cloak, and banshees...at the same time? o.O
Banshee openers also involve switching the factory with the starport for the tech lab, so you won't be behind... True, but if you go 1rax gasless expo into 1-1-1 I'm wondering if it will still be out in time. Of course if you go 1-1-1 without an expansion yourself you'll have no problem. Basically will the raven + viking be out before a cloaked banshee can destroy your mineral line but still give you enough time to get your own siege mode before your opponents siege mode kicks in? Obviously your opponent will have siege mode first because they didn't do a 1rax expand and got the gasses faster. I suppose you'll have to use at least one scan if you go viking + raven because the first cloaked banshee will be there long before your raven is done.
Yes banshee will get there first, however it will not have cloak yet so you can stall for time with 4 marines pretty easily with decent micro.
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I am diamond but as I play often my raven + vikings + tanks + marines often successfully kill banshee at home and then do well by moving out and killing him at his home. But in higher league I would say try to master 1 rax expo +2 rax into whatever build, I think its much more efficient. Even if you loose some games you will eventually get it.
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No matter my build I save a scan for the 5:00-5:30 mark and peek into his base. If I can't prove Banshees aren't coming I build an Ebay.
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I usually do save an scan, but I save one until later on. At the 5 min mark there is still 1 min or 1:30 before the banshee will even be out of the starport for the average player. So if you save a scan until the 6-6:30 mark you would be good to go and just try and scout an starport tech. If you do, pop a raven and put some marines around the perimeter. Later on that raven will be able to support your drops or your ground attacks with PDDs.
Just my 5 cents tho. Low league player theorycrafting haha.
// UnoS
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Scan is easily avoided. Even I as a new player in the last weeks of season 5 can make a player rage quit just because of my micro with banshees. To actually drop a banshee with a scan you need your marines to stand RIGHT under the banshee before scanning. A player that lets you position your marines that way should not be doing banshee harasses!
But you don't need to kill it the first thing you do, just keep it away from the mineral line, either with marines or turrets!
// UnoS
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EPT
