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Canada13403 Posts
I don't see this doing well against the MC 1 gate FE.
The protoss player you played in your replay had 2 stalkers and one zealot when you attacked. His nexus first opening was done incorrectly AND he was taking a third base at 7 minutes chronoing only probes.
If the person does a mc 1 gate FE they should have at the time you hit closer to 7 stalkers and one zealot at 7:20 ish and then an additional set of warp ins plus a robotics bay up and an observer on the way to your base so the marines can not avoid the observer even if they avoid a watchtower. They could throw away half their probes and still be safe or back off into their main with a tech and probe advantage, sack the nexus force field the ramp and then expand when you leave and make collossus vs your not upgraded marines.
If you get lucky this can work really well but it doesn't seem that solid. It hits way way too late might as well do the geiko marine scv all in since it hits much earlier and has the potential to do much more damage.
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On February 23 2012 04:31 ZeromuS wrote:
I don't see this doing well against the MC 1 gate FE.
The protoss player you played in your replay had 2 stalkers and one zealot when you attacked. His nexus first opening was done incorrectly AND he was taking a third base at 7 minutes chronoing only probes.
If the person does a mc 1 gate FE they should have at the time you hit closer to 7 stalkers and one zealot at 7:20 ish and then an additional set of warp ins plus a robotics bay up and an observer on the way to your base so the marines can not avoid the observer even if they avoid a watchtower. They could throw away half their probes and still be safe or back off into their main with a tech and probe advantage, sack the nexus force field the ramp and then expand when you leave and make collossus vs your not upgraded marines.
If you get lucky this can work really well but it doesn't seem that solid. It hits way way too late might as well do the geiko marine scv all in since it hits much earlier and has the potential to do much more damage.
The MC 1 gate FE is good against gas first builds, not against gasless expands- I'm not sure why you posted this when the OP made it clear that the build is supposed to fool protoss into thinking it's a gasless expand. He tricked the protoss and he went for a quick third nexus, which would have been semi-ok as long as he pressured the terran at the same time.
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I'm not convinced... A normal 15 nex will do a 2 zeal 1 stalker poke and would have raised a lot of eyebrows when he sees 8+ marines... That protoss looked nothing short of gold tbh... Moar replays!
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On February 23 2012 04:40 ctypewriter wrote:
I'm not convinced... A normal 15 nex will do a 2 zeal 1 stalker poke and would have raised a lot of eyebrows when he sees 8+ marines... That protoss looked nothing short of gold tbh... Moar replays!
You hide marines if you can, its very common to have a bunker and a few marines at your natural in a 1rax fe. The opponent in the first replay was a mid-high masters player. ~900 points last season.
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I just think that any Protoss thats prepared for any 4 naked rax pressure after a 1 rax expo will be fine with this. It doesn't even hit much earlier than regular naked marine pressure after 1 rax fe. And you don't have two orbitals.
Tldr: you're better off doing a hard 3 rax marine scv all in (either proxy or wall with depot) without delaying it or being tricky. Or doing 4 rax pressure after your cc.
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Canada13403 Posts
On February 23 2012 04:38 Borkbokbork wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 04:31 ZeromuS wrote:
I don't see this doing well against the MC 1 gate FE.
The protoss player you played in your replay had 2 stalkers and one zealot when you attacked. His nexus first opening was done incorrectly AND he was taking a third base at 7 minutes chronoing only probes.
If the person does a mc 1 gate FE they should have at the time you hit closer to 7 stalkers and one zealot at 7:20 ish and then an additional set of warp ins plus a robotics bay up and an observer on the way to your base so the marines can not avoid the observer even if they avoid a watchtower. They could throw away half their probes and still be safe or back off into their main with a tech and probe advantage, sack the nexus force field the ramp and then expand when you leave and make collossus vs your not upgraded marines.
If you get lucky this can work really well but it doesn't seem that solid. It hits way way too late might as well do the geiko marine scv all in since it hits much earlier and has the potential to do much more damage. The MC 1 gate FE is good against gas first builds, not against gasless expands- I'm not sure why you posted this when the OP made it clear that the build is supposed to fool protoss into thinking it's a gasless expand. He tricked the protoss and he went for a quick third nexus, which would have been semi-ok as long as he pressured the terran at the same time.
If he places the 2nd supply depot when he did in the replay a protoss who didn't 9 scout wouldn't get in to see gas taken vs not taken and in that case I always do the MC 1 gate FE just because its safer.
Furthermore the protoss did a Nexus first and should have even more units than the MC 1 gate FE. The nexus first was done incorrectly as well since he cancelled the second gateway early on when you are supposed to go nexus - gate - core - gate.
What I am trying to say is this build relies a lot on just tricking the opponent and hoping they react poorly when they see whats on the way. You really should be able to either hold most of the push and win the game right there with good control since the timing is fairly late OR you can give up the nexus and slice the army with some forcefields then just take the tech and eco advantage you will have at 7 minutes. The opponent will need to run all his surviving scvs back home after he tries to attack and with no expo, all that lost mining time and no gas getting 2 collosi and expanding again while attacking should be a viable reaction.
On February 23 2012 04:42 ReMiiX wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 04:40 ctypewriter wrote:
I'm not convinced... A normal 15 nex will do a 2 zeal 1 stalker poke and would have raised a lot of eyebrows when he sees 8+ marines... That protoss looked nothing short of gold tbh... Moar replays! You hide marines if you can, its very common to have a bunker and a few marines at your natural in a 1rax fe. The opponent in the first replay was a mid-high masters player. ~900 points last season.
I honestly feel like in that replay you got really lucky he did such a greedy build and its a novel build hence the win. Almost anything would have killed that protoss with 3 bases before 8 minutes and almost no army units at all.
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On February 23 2012 05:00 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 04:38 Borkbokbork wrote:On February 23 2012 04:31 ZeromuS wrote:
I don't see this doing well against the MC 1 gate FE.
The protoss player you played in your replay had 2 stalkers and one zealot when you attacked. His nexus first opening was done incorrectly AND he was taking a third base at 7 minutes chronoing only probes.
If the person does a mc 1 gate FE they should have at the time you hit closer to 7 stalkers and one zealot at 7:20 ish and then an additional set of warp ins plus a robotics bay up and an observer on the way to your base so the marines can not avoid the observer even if they avoid a watchtower. They could throw away half their probes and still be safe or back off into their main with a tech and probe advantage, sack the nexus force field the ramp and then expand when you leave and make collossus vs your not upgraded marines.
If you get lucky this can work really well but it doesn't seem that solid. It hits way way too late might as well do the geiko marine scv all in since it hits much earlier and has the potential to do much more damage. The MC 1 gate FE is good against gas first builds, not against gasless expands- I'm not sure why you posted this when the OP made it clear that the build is supposed to fool protoss into thinking it's a gasless expand. He tricked the protoss and he went for a quick third nexus, which would have been semi-ok as long as he pressured the terran at the same time. If he places the 2nd supply depot when he did in the replay a protoss who didn't 9 scout wouldn't get in to see gas taken vs not taken and in that case I always do the MC 1 gate FE just because its safer. Furthermore the protoss did a Nexus first and should have even more units than the MC 1 gate FE. The nexus first was done incorrectly as well since he cancelled the second gateway early on when you are supposed to go nexus - gate - core - gate. What I am trying to say is this build relies a lot on just tricking the opponent and hoping they react poorly when they see whats on the way. You really should be able to either hold most of the push and win the game right there with good control since the timing is fairly late OR you can give up the nexus and slice the army with some forcefields then just take the tech and eco advantage you will have at 7 minutes. The opponent will need to run all his surviving scvs back home after he tries to attack and with no expo, all that lost mining time and no gas getting 2 collosi and expanding again while attacking should be a viable reaction. Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 04:42 ReMiiX wrote:On February 23 2012 04:40 ctypewriter wrote:
I'm not convinced... A normal 15 nex will do a 2 zeal 1 stalker poke and would have raised a lot of eyebrows when he sees 8+ marines... That protoss looked nothing short of gold tbh... Moar replays! You hide marines if you can, its very common to have a bunker and a few marines at your natural in a 1rax fe. The opponent in the first replay was a mid-high masters player. ~900 points last season. I honestly feel like in that replay you got really lucky he did such a greedy build and its a novel build hence the win. Almost anything would have killed that protoss with 3 bases before 8 minutes and almost no army units at all.
Its true, the replay that I have up right now is sort of a fluke. 15 nex, 34 nex would lose to almost any pressure. However, I have dozens of replays of this building working vs all kinds of protoss builds. Unfortunately, a lot of these are on my Korean account and it is really hard to find them. I am working on it! Hopefully I can change your mind about this build.
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On February 23 2012 03:52 .Natsu wrote:
So.... how do you kill a well-microed stalker with this build?
trap it with the scv's. also mains are small enough that eventually with proper control, the stalker will get cornered.
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What happens if they don't FE, I'm pretty sure you just straight up lose. Secondly, how do you intend to take map control with your marines when he'll have 1-2 stalkers at your front?
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I get that this can surprise a protoss, but I don't like that all you have to do is to pull everything back in your main and FF the ramp while you warp in 3 sentries to autowin against it.
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On February 23 2012 05:23 Zoku wrote:
What happens if they don't FE, I'm pretty sure you just straight up lose. Secondly, how do you intend to take map control with your marines when he'll have 1-2 stalkers at your front?
If they don't FE you don't have to all in. This build is about when the protoss 15 nexs. However, even when they dont 15nex, this build can still be very effective. I am working on locating replays where this build works vs non 15nex.
In terms of map control you have to be a little bit ballsy. So basically, stalkers are only good vs marines because they can kite them. So, if there was a stalker at a watch tower, literally all you have to do is attack move to the watch tower. Once you are contesting it, the protoss has two options. 1. It can leave the stalker to fight, potentially losing it. Or, 2. It can move the stalker, giving up map control. In the second case, the stalker will no longer be able to kite the marines as once you control the watch tower, the stalker has to contest it (meaning it has to be within a very short range of your units) in order to attack. Additionally, since you have vision and he doesn't, good marine placement will allow you to get a few shots off on the protoss before he can do anything.
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If you scout the 15 nex, there's not really a point in faking the expo. Assuming you were already going to 1 rax fe, you just plop down two-three extra rax, try to sneak a bunker in with your scouting scv, and all in
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how can this cheese be good dude ? protoss will get a stalker and kite you to death ....and since most protoss open 1 zealot 2 stalker in pvt with 2 chronos on stalkers you will hit protoss base with 50% of your initial army .
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nice guide, but every time i see a terran do this build, the toss can just run up the ramp,
forcefield, and then play with a huge eco advantage
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That toss saw your expo and took a big risk by getting slightly safe and then expanding again. I think the replay was a bo counter if you call what the toss did a "bo"
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It's a good guide, and hey guys? It's cheese it's supposed to work on trickery and getting lucky to win.
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EPT
