On February 11 2012 06:18 ArcticRaven wrote: Interesting... but it would be nice to have some clues as to how to defend it
See: counters.
Well, you're giving the terrans advice against these counters. You're not telling how to micro against it. I'd like to have the zerg point of view on this.
I understand, but that's the purpose of the guide For defending it, micro is really not that important. It's just scouting it coming and pumping units. Just be diligent with your scouting, it shouldn't be too hard to get some information from overlords or stray lings. When you scout a lot of hellions and more than one marauder(one marauder is standard for some), stop droning and pump some units, throw up an extra couple of spines, and have four queens. Queens, spines, and speedlings should defend this fine with minimal micro. If you can transfuse your spines, great. Just try not to engage in a choke, and try to catch the hellions out of position. If the battle isn't going great, don't hesitate to throw down a spine in your main too, I've won some games because we traded equally, but I still was able to produce enough hellions to run around and roast the remaining drones because there was only a queen defending.
On February 11 2012 06:18 ArcticRaven wrote: Interesting... but it would be nice to have some clues as to how to defend it
See: counters.
Well, you're giving the terrans advice against these counters. You're not telling how to micro against it. I'd like to have the zerg point of view on this.
From my perspective when they go for a 1 base Marauder/Hellion the most important factor is scouting it of course, once I know what is coming I can just sit on 2 bases and pump out a handfull of Roaches and a ton of Zerglings, Spine Crawlers are good but may be optional. The idea is to use Roaches to try and pick off Hellions and tank damage and then flooding the enemy with Zerglings when you see a good opportunity. The times when I am able to scout this all-in I typically haven't had any problem stopping it with just Roach/Ling, just balance your army to beat what the enemy has, more Marauders means more Lings, more Hellions means more Roaches.
i prefer to get the 2nd barracks after the factory and then once the factory is on the reactor use the rax to get a tech lab, and then start stim and marauder production. Normally push with around 6-8 marauders and 8-10 hellions with stim and scvs
On February 11 2012 06:18 ArcticRaven wrote: Interesting... but it would be nice to have some clues as to how to defend it
See: counters.
Well, you're giving the terrans advice against these counters. You're not telling how to micro against it. I'd like to have the zerg point of view on this.
From my perspective when they go for a 1 base Marauder/Hellion the most important factor is scouting it of course, once I know what is coming I can just sit on 2 bases and pump out a handfull of Roaches and a ton of Zerglings, Spine Crawlers are good but may be optional. The idea is to use Roaches to try and pick off Hellions and tank damage and then flooding the enemy with Zerglings when you see a good opportunity. The times when I am able to scout this all-in I typically haven't had any problem stopping it with just Roach/Ling, just balance your army to beat what the enemy has, more Marauders means more Lings, more Hellions means more Roaches.
agreed, roaches in tvp are good defensively and not overproduced. I just hate to see people doig blind roach aggression up a Terran ramp. It's generally never worth it, bunker and scvs to repair will set you behind and much weaker to a marine/marauder/ tank push. It will only accomplish anything if the Terran is playing very thin/greedy
One of the many counters that I prefer to this is (as always) correct scouting to see it coming.
If I see them doing it usually I'll throw down two more spines (usually have 2 for hellion harrass and to protect against this already) towards the back of the natural. Always have a baneling nest to protect against things like this. Morph 5-6 banes and focus on ling production. When they engage run lings behind their hellions to prevent kiting then run the banelings into the hellions. Once the hellions are gone the marauders are next to useless and can be easily cleaned up with lings.
Allows you to stay on your typical tech path (ling / bling) rated than going out of the way for roaches.
i feel TLO's 6 rax is better when talking about all-ins, because pulling scv's makes it really all-in, but of course short games make it easier to rise up in the Ladder ranks XD
AND if i remember correctly, the pro's marauder hellion all-ins always off two base or with expansion behind right? This one is with stim.
On February 11 2012 05:29 DoctorFunk wrote: To my interpretation, this is Blizzard's invitation to recklessly all-in and avoid late game TvZ. If that's what floats your boat, this guide may interest you.
All changes that Blizzard made in the game since 10 patches ago invite T to all-in either of the two races, since Z and P have ways to get ahead, if left alone: Zerg can make 16 drones at the same time out of two hatcheries and toss can reach 3/3 before terran has finished his 2/2 AND have 20 workers more out of the same number of bases. I wonder if this hellion/marauder all-in can be done on a toss as well...
go to the actual youtube site and I have the BO down.
I analyzed forgg myself ^_^
First off, dont do this. Its really not on to have a video in a video which is most of the time too small to see. You are cearly jsut trying to get people to your channel.
HOWEVER, good video. But do you know why he waits so long for the second rax? He has the money for it for like 30 seconds and doesnt build it. I always build it asap and never have issues.
Very well written guide! Terran has always and will always revolve around strong timings or attacks that need to be scouted or you die. Early game Marauders in big numbers really pose a threat not only to Zerg but also to Protoss and definitely need to be scouted. The problem with this build is in my opinion that it is quite easy for Z to scout the natural and see if there is a CC going down.
On February 11 2012 05:29 DoctorFunk wrote: To my interpretation, this is Blizzard's invitation to recklessly all-in and avoid late game TvZ. If that's what floats your boat, this guide may interest you.
All changes that Blizzard made in the game since 10 patches ago invite T to all-in either of the two races, since Z and P have ways to get ahead, if left alone: Zerg can make 16 drones at the same time out of two hatcheries and toss can reach 3/3 before terran has finished his 2/2 AND have 20 workers more out of the same number of bases. I wonder if this hellion/marauder all-in can be done on a toss as well...
Balance whine. Really bad one as well. I will help you to make it better: 1. Zerg could make 38 drones at the same time out of two hatcheries 2. Protoss can reach 3/3/3 before Terran has reached 1/1 if Terran gets a late or no Engineering Bay. WOW!
Obviously, it all depends on the build. If Protoss has 20 workers more than you and 3/3 done before you finished your 2/2 you must have had a much stronger army than him for a long time. (Assuming, as you said, everyone has been left alone.)
I am not going to go into more detail because it doesn't make sense. Your argument is quite frankly ridiculous. T has just about the same chance to get ahead e.g. with mules. Saying something like if left alone is not only too vague, it's also just straight up BS balance-whine.
Zerg players: Don't let the spine dies. All you need is spines with queens and some lings, this is defendable. Make sure you try to kill all the marauders because without them, hellions cannot do anything about spines and queens. I have seen Stephano defended this with just one spine (and he didn't even scouted it coming) he was behind because there was a good hellion hit, but this shows you that with good control, 3 queens and lings and 1 spine can do.
On February 11 2012 05:29 DoctorFunk wrote: To my interpretation, this is Blizzard's invitation to recklessly all-in and avoid late game TvZ. If that's what floats your boat, this guide may interest you.
All changes that Blizzard made in the game since 10 patches ago invite T to all-in either of the two races, since Z and P have ways to get ahead, if left alone: Zerg can make 16 drones at the same time out of two hatcheries and toss can reach 3/3 before terran has finished his 2/2 AND have 20 workers more out of the same number of bases. I wonder if this hellion/marauder all-in can be done on a toss as well...
and honestly, stop trolling. You are showing a very low understanding of the game. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=312138#13 Read through this thread, you posted a "balance whine" post again which showed your complete lack of understanding the mechanics behind zerg and tonnes of people are telling you what you need to understand.
Stim is good for taking down the spines, thats really it. I guess it can be worth it if you're really selective and conservative about your stim usage. I generally do not get it. That's not saying that it's bad to get it, it's all preference. If its a roach defense, stim would definitely be good. However the decision to get stim would come before roaches are scouted, so it's just whatever.
As a masters zerg I must say that some terrans definitely need to read this build. In my recent memory I have been marauder/hellion all-ined and BOTH times I have been 10-15 seconds from mutas popping, then the terran promptly ggs when they get to the fight. I never go super fast muta in any form and could never figure out how terran's are being so slow at getting this attack off.
Good guide, more people need to learn the right BO even at the "higher" levels
I watched all 3 replays (the 4th is the same as the 3rd) and only 1 opponent made 2 spines, but did so far enough apart you could focus down one without being hurt by the other. Also in 2 of the games they made macro hatches in their main as you moved out. Not to mention every game was on wide open naturals, not maps where they sim city like Shakuras.
So do you just avoid doing this on maps like Shakuras, and how do you deal with 2 spines? Many zerg put down 2 as a matter of course, and usually right next to each other. Running around with the hellions could work if they don't block with the 2 queens and the handful of speedlings they'll have (one of your opponents didn't even have speed).
I'm curious if this is at all viable if the zerg's getting 2 spines and more than 4 speedlings? Does anyone have replays of those games?
EPT
For defending it, micro is really not that important. It's just scouting it coming and pumping units. Just be diligent with your scouting, it shouldn't be too hard to get some information from overlords or stray lings. When you scout a lot of hellions and more than one marauder(one marauder is standard for some), stop droning and pump some units, throw up an extra couple of spines, and have four queens. Queens, spines, and speedlings should defend this fine with minimal micro. If you can transfuse your spines, great. Just try not to engage in a choke, and try to catch the hellions out of position. If the battle isn't going great, don't hesitate to throw down a spine in your main too, I've won some games because we traded equally, but I still was able to produce enough hellions to run around and roast the remaining drones because there was only a queen defending.
