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On January 16 2012 00:12 HappyChris wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2012 23:58 redloser wrote:
I saw in Stephano's stream Sage ripping apart Stephano in a similar situation of mass infestors/broodlords vs mothership. Sage used WP a lot to harass Stephano, but he crushed Stephano's unit composition in the end anyway. So I think it just depends on the skills of the players. If both players are on the same level and none of them make serious mistakes, mothership should be able to beat the composition. Not true Sage vs Stephano is like 20-5 in Stephano favors. Most of the time he won vs him in Korea. This spine wall and fast broodlords are really hard to deal with. And he split his broodlords perfect. Maybe alot of HT will help
Split broodlords? ROFL. Would terran split their marines vs mutas just because theres a few banelings nearby? Would protoss split their stalkers vs zerglings just because theres a few infestors nearby? The answer is no and doing this will allow the enemy to pick apart your army one bit at a time.
Also static defence will never be able to defeat an army, whatever map you're talking about, even shakuras it's impossible to place enough spines to combat an army in three different places and also at expansions to protect from Warp prism harass. When I say enough spines to combat an army I don't mean 10 spines at one place because the protoss deathball just rolls over that. I mean 20 spines to combat the army and so real damage.
Base race is the way to go, with a combination of warp prism harass (especially DTs who do SOOO MUCH DPS), recall and blink stalkers to pick off expansions.
Again see Kiwikaki vs Stephano in the IPL 2 I think it was. Stephano couldn't do anything because he had brood lords.
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Northern Ireland24543 Posts
Olsson is pretty much right on how to try and engage, if you avoid getting caught out of position, push up with your main force, and use aggressive warpins at 2 different locations.
I personally like to warp in zealots really obviously at one spot, and go for tech. This is generally spotted and can force an over-reaction. Simultaneously warpin DTs at another location and start pushing up with your ball and begin chipping away. Ofc it's not a fool-proof method by any means.
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Someone asked Stephano how to beat this and he replied you cannot. You simply have to not let the Zerg get there. I think HerO does this best. His entire gameplan on larger maps is to deny the 3rd/4th.
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On January 16 2012 00:13 JoeAWESOME wrote:
Dont start reading too much into the Grubby - Stephano games. Stephano is a much more accomplished player while Grubby is good he's still not known as one of the top protoss players. He might be in the future but it's still a better play facing a "worse player".
Though I think Mship, Carriers, HTs, Archons is a good way to deal with it!
If you look at his play I think its very safe to say he's easily one of the top european protoss players, he hasnt been for that long but long enough.
Other than that I agree though
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It is unbeatable (saw stephano say it on his stream)
He says the only way to lose is for the zerg player to make a mistake with the vortex
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Anyone have links to replays or VODs where this style is shown?
Sounds pretty cool but I don't think I've ever seen it executed.
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On January 24 2012 15:22 Mjolnir wrote:
Anyone have links to replays or VODs where this style is shown?
Sounds pretty cool but I don't think I've ever seen it executed.
Well you could watch game one of this series.
Personally I disagree with those saying "you need to make unit X" or "just put your HTs in a Warp Prism" and I think that the answer lies in the mobility of the Protoss army vs Broodlords, as shown in the Kiwikaki game people have mentioned. Warp Prism harass, Blink Stalkers and Mass Recall I think are the best approach to combat this extremely slow late-game Zerg composition.
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On January 16 2012 03:53 Olsson wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 00:12 HappyChris wrote:On January 15 2012 23:58 redloser wrote:
I saw in Stephano's stream Sage ripping apart Stephano in a similar situation of mass infestors/broodlords vs mothership. Sage used WP a lot to harass Stephano, but he crushed Stephano's unit composition in the end anyway. So I think it just depends on the skills of the players. If both players are on the same level and none of them make serious mistakes, mothership should be able to beat the composition. Not true Sage vs Stephano is like 20-5 in Stephano favors. Most of the time he won vs him in Korea. This spine wall and fast broodlords are really hard to deal with. And he split his broodlords perfect. Maybe alot of HT will help Split broodlords? ROFL. Would terran split their marines vs mutas just because theres a few banelings nearby? Would protoss split their stalkers vs zerglings just because theres a few infestors nearby? The answer is no and doing this will allow the enemy to pick apart your army one bit at a time. Also static defence will never be able to defeat an army, whatever map you're talking about, even shakuras it's impossible to place enough spines to combat an army in three different places and also at expansions to protect from Warp prism harass. When I say enough spines to combat an army I don't mean 10 spines at one place because the protoss deathball just rolls over that. I mean 20 spines to combat the army and so real damage. Base race is the way to go, with a combination of warp prism harass (especially DTs who do SOOO MUCH DPS), recall and blink stalkers to pick off expansions. Again see Kiwikaki vs Stephano in the IPL 2 I think it was. Stephano couldn't do anything because he had brood lords.
I think you make alot of invalid points. You seem like a spectator but have never actually played at a reasonably high level (not saying this to mock you but saying this to try and clarify where your points come from).
A: Splitting broodlords, It's essential lategame zvp to split your broodlords and keep the spread out otherwise you lose instantly vs archon toilet. Since broodlords have like 13 range and fungal keeps army locked down splitting them wont let anyone pick apart your army since if they engage 1 brood you can lock the stalkers down with fungal and reposition the rest of your broods. On a side note terrans should pre split vs lets say ling infestor even though lings might get more surface area its not close to the devestation a fungal can do to a clump of marines.
B: Yes spines do actually combat alot of army. Since the theory of this build is rely on roach infestor till you get hive once you get hive(well broods) you win. The spines are essential. There will be a timing 80% of the protoss players will try to hit once you're morphing greater spire. The spines force protoss to make a decision. X: Full out engage spines + roach + infestor and lose their army. B: Poke at the spines untill the static defence falls. Option Y is usually very risky since if your collosus get caught by fungal while poking the roaches can run up and snipe them and from there on its game over. Option X can be dangerous but you can hold this with chain fungals and eventual roach engagement (at this point you're just buying time for broods trying to thin out their army and make then retreat). You don't necesarely need spines everywhere either you just need them on one or two key locations. Even if protoss could blink into your 4th and walk up there with collosus all you're doing is buying time. Since this build goal is just to get broodlords and win. Even if you lose bases in the process of getting broods. Because you get them so early against pure stalker collosus theyre so cost effective they will most likely win you the game.
C: Since you could consider this build to be a broodlord rush protoss shouldnt have more than 3 maybe 4 base by the time the broodlords finish. Warp prism harrass is strong for sure but you cant do the lategame 10 zealot warp ins yet just because you're building your own army still and you cant afford to sack 1k minerals in an attempt to kill a base (wich you're not sure of since if you get caught by roaches or infestors you just sacked 1k minerals for nothing). Once broodlords are out zerg should be attacking while mass expanding (since infestor broodlord is quite gas heavy zerg should be able to spend resources in spinecrawlers drones and bases while attacking) the fact that zerg then has 3194801 bases and 19481084 spines will make it extremly hard for toss to baserace.
I personally think theres only few viable ways to play against this style for protoss.
-Kill zerg with a strong collosus timing before he gets his broodlords out.
-Lucky vortex (or well not necesarely lucky but still you need to catch atleast 50% of the broodlords with 1 vortex)
-Hidden air (e.g. zerg gets broods and you have been stacking voidrays or carriers hidden zerg doesnt have enough anti air)
-Last but not least i think its possible for protoss to kill zergs expansions but while trading inneficiently with the broodlord infestor composition they will be able to keep warping in units while they prevent zerg from mining (and so making units). Though this option is not viable on all maps since not all maps grant a scenario where you can reach the expansions quick enough.
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On January 24 2012 15:47 cLunAsTyY wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 03:53 Olsson wrote:On January 16 2012 00:12 HappyChris wrote:On January 15 2012 23:58 redloser wrote:
I saw in Stephano's stream Sage ripping apart Stephano in a similar situation of mass infestors/broodlords vs mothership. Sage used WP a lot to harass Stephano, but he crushed Stephano's unit composition in the end anyway. So I think it just depends on the skills of the players. If both players are on the same level and none of them make serious mistakes, mothership should be able to beat the composition. Not true Sage vs Stephano is like 20-5 in Stephano favors. Most of the time he won vs him in Korea. This spine wall and fast broodlords are really hard to deal with. And he split his broodlords perfect. Maybe alot of HT will help Split broodlords? ROFL. Would terran split their marines vs mutas just because theres a few banelings nearby? Would protoss split their stalkers vs zerglings just because theres a few infestors nearby? The answer is no and doing this will allow the enemy to pick apart your army one bit at a time. Also static defence will never be able to defeat an army, whatever map you're talking about, even shakuras it's impossible to place enough spines to combat an army in three different places and also at expansions to protect from Warp prism harass. When I say enough spines to combat an army I don't mean 10 spines at one place because the protoss deathball just rolls over that. I mean 20 spines to combat the army and so real damage. Base race is the way to go, with a combination of warp prism harass (especially DTs who do SOOO MUCH DPS), recall and blink stalkers to pick off expansions. Again see Kiwikaki vs Stephano in the IPL 2 I think it was. Stephano couldn't do anything because he had brood lords. I personally think theres only few viable ways to play against this style for protoss. -Kill zerg with a strong collosus timing before he gets his broodlords out. -Lucky vortex (or well not necesarely lucky but still you need to catch atleast 50% of the broodlords with 1 vortex) -Hidden air (e.g. zerg gets broods and you have been stacking voidrays or carriers hidden zerg doesnt have enough anti air) -Last but not least i think its possible for protoss to kill zergs expansions but while trading inneficiently with the broodlord infestor composition they will be able to keep warping in units while they prevent zerg from mining (and so making units). Though this option is not viable on all maps since not all maps grant a scenario where you can reach the expansions quick enough.
- this works, another composition to kill with is to max on HTs/immortals/blink stalkers
- indeed
-hidden air works, sure, but you make it sound more gimmicky than it actually is. IMO there should be another step in the game plan of current zerg strategy. Right now it's survive by any means necessary till brood infestor (or: roach ling ---> mutas ---> infestor spine wall ---> broods)
what I think should be the game plan is to survive till brood infestor, then kill the opponent with them before he gets too many air units. (any kind of kill move is never guaranteed even when its well executed, as it should be otherwise the game would suck for the race being killed.) Any supply tied up in brood lords will be nearly useless in dealing with a primarily air heavy army and protoss air units are actually really good. Even the carrier. Going straight pure air from the start of a game (after ffe) is doable, but not the greatest because it's hard to secure expansions and keep the zerg under control beyond the initial harass. but by transitioning into air around the time when you already have a bunch of bases up, have been keeping zerg in check with your mobile(ish) standard army, and he's starting to commit a lot of supply to units that can't even hit air... is the perfect plan.
unfortunately it requires more boring turtling to get up a solid transition into mass air unless you have really good situational awareness and somehow know that he doesnt have enough to stop what you currently have.
"what if the zerg makes 20 corruptors"
well, corruptors are bad vs air units to start with. They ARE good when you can out number the void rays before they get too ridiculous, which is why I suggest you turtle up near your cannons while you make them. The other reason is the zerg will have to free up 40 supply to make that happen so it's not that easy to do to begin with, at least not cost efficiently.
so yeah, I think the zerg game plan should be: roach ling (or ling bling) ---> mutas ---> infestor spine wall ---> broods ----> infestor queen/corruptor/hydra (choose whatever is best, I don't really know what the optimal counter to air is. Especially not an air transition after having HTs on the field.)
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I don't understand why people don't copy MC more.
His 2 base all ins, or 3 base plays, are insane, and beats zerg pretty much every time.
Yes, if your entire goal is to turtle to get to 3 bases 200 / 200, then Zerg can and will outmacro you. But between equal players, the strong 2 base all ins pretty much demolish this style in tournaments from what I've seen of MC's play.
But yes, with proper spine walls, you do have to pretty much outmine and base trade efficiently vs that late game zerg army. Recalls and vortex.
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just from watching pro games you have to vortex with mothership and archon toilet as many brood lords as possible.. everything else doesn't work.. pretty boring end regardless imo
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i think people dont give enough credit to air units with templar support
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You just have to be careful, that's all. It's much easier for Toss to get a good archon toilet off, then for Zerg to possibly get a NP off. If you have colossi, they can roast any infestors before they can NP. Just make sure you don't leave the mothership by itself, but it's kind of a dance, except one that's totally P favored.
More infestors, means the 'safer' zerg is from archon toilets, but less offensive capability.
Also, feedback rapes infestors pretty well. If he tries to go for a NP, you just feedback it.
As for double spire, that's ridiculous. +1 attack/armor is just never worth that much for Zerg, to have double spire. It doesn't change critical hit numbers in any meaningful way, stalkers still kill broodlords in same number of shots.
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On January 24 2012 16:42 aebriol wrote:
I don't understand why people don't copy MC more.
His 2 base all ins, or 3 base plays, are insane, and beats zerg pretty much every time.
Yes, if your entire goal is to turtle to get to 3 bases 200 / 200, then Zerg can and will outmacro you. But between equal players, the strong 2 base all ins pretty much demolish this style in tournaments from what I've seen of MC's play.
But yes, with proper spine walls, you do have to pretty much outmine and base trade efficiently vs that late game zerg army. Recalls and vortex.
I wouldn't even call some of MC's 2 base play all in. A 2 base all in should never be able to transition into a 3rd base safely, but MC holds his 3rd base with ease everytime. His 3rd isn't especially delayed either. Sometimes, he does go completely all in but usually that is when he senses weakness. He never takes a 3rd without doing something, and leaves his opponent's stuck on roach ling/roach ling infestor for a long time. Most Zergs will do a 3/4 base bust and never tech afterwards. Some Zergs will turtle and make a infestor broodlord deathball. But MC has amazing macro, and you will never get your tech up in time. MC vs Stephano daybreak is a great example. Stephano tech to Broodlords asap and MC's 3 base timing completely crushed it.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 24 2012 19:22 Belial88 wrote:
You just have to be careful, that's all. It's much easier for Toss to get a good archon toilet off, then for Zerg to possibly get a NP off. If you have colossi, they can roast any infestors before they can NP. Just make sure you don't leave the mothership by itself, but it's kind of a dance, except one that's totally P favored.
More infestors, means the 'safer' zerg is from archon toilets, but less offensive capability.
Also, feedback rapes infestors pretty well. If he tries to go for a NP, you just feedback it.
As for double spire, that's ridiculous. +1 attack/armor is just never worth that much for Zerg, to have double spire. It doesn't change critical hit numbers in any meaningful way, stalkers still kill broodlords in same number of shots.
Double spire is completely standard. Nearly every zerg who goes for mass broodlord does it. It allows you to get 3-3 faster for the ultimate zerg deathball.
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I don't see how archon toilet is an answer to BL/infestor... Even if it was it'd be stupid. As op as bl and infestor currently is. Toss needs to be in the lead before BL's hit the field, otherwise you have to get 100% lucky and your opponent not microing at all, which could allow you to get a vortex off. Fungal stops it, corruptor stops it, and you need to hit the majority of his bl's and get 2-3 archons in to stand a chance in that fight.
Sure, theoretically there are several answers, mass VR, feedback on all the infestors, archon toilets, and probably something else. Problem is that in practice, the amount of skill a toss player need in order to win vs BL/infestor surpasses the zerg player greatly, u need perfect macro/micro vs someone who doesn't really have to micro that much, unless you count spamming F across the board while always hitting mothership.
First of all a mothership shouldn't be stunned by a fungal, it's a hero unit? Second of all Archontoilet should NEVER be the counter to anything, since if a perfect toilet hits, the Z player will lose everything while toss player loses about nothing, giving him a freewin. Either protoss needs some mastermind to come up with a solution to it or something else needs to be done. To know the timing of BL is almost impossible, since scouting it is only possible if zerg player didn't bother with putting up proper detection around his spires.
I don't know currently what beats this composition, i only know that i need to be ahead quite abit when it happens.
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it doesnt require any skill at all to turtle till 200/200 air units with a few templar/archon to beat brood infestor
stop using this WAH ZERG TAKES NO SKILL business
yeah, it's hard to kill a deathball of super high army value full of tech units. it SHOULD be hard unless you have your own super high army value ball of high tech units.
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On January 24 2012 19:25 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 16:42 aebriol wrote:
I don't understand why people don't copy MC more.
His 2 base all ins, or 3 base plays, are insane, and beats zerg pretty much every time.
Yes, if your entire goal is to turtle to get to 3 bases 200 / 200, then Zerg can and will outmacro you. But between equal players, the strong 2 base all ins pretty much demolish this style in tournaments from what I've seen of MC's play.
But yes, with proper spine walls, you do have to pretty much outmine and base trade efficiently vs that late game zerg army. Recalls and vortex. I wouldn't even call some of MC's 2 base play all in. A 2 base all in should never be able to transition into a 3rd base safely, but MC holds his 3rd base with ease everytime. His 3rd isn't especially delayed either. Sometimes, he does go completely all in but usually that is when he senses weakness. He never takes a 3rd without doing something, and leaves his opponent's stuck on roach ling/roach ling infestor for a long time. Most Zergs will do a 3/4 base bust and never tech afterwards. Some Zergs will turtle and make a infestor broodlord deathball. But MC has amazing macro, and you will never get your tech up in time. MC vs Stephano daybreak is a great example. Stephano tech to Broodlords asap and MC's 3 base timing completely crushed it.
Ah I should clarify.
What I meant by 'his 2 base all ins, or 3 base plays, are insane' is that it's impossible to tell really what he is doing. You have to guess. He opens safely from busts, and then he either goes all in or takes a good third. If he goes all in and you guessed wrong, you lose, if you overdefend, he is safe with his three bases.
I think his style of play is the optimal way to play PvZ at the moment, and I wonder why not more are doing it.
Just knowing that the protoss have a gameplan to get to 200 / 200 is a huge advantage for the zerg, if you have to be aware that at any point in time there could be a committed attack with resources and upgrades finishing at the right time, it's really a lot harder to play against.
In much the same way that a lot of zergs that play roach ling or roach or roach hydra use 200 / 200 as a timing to attack, when it seems from replays and tournaments that normally timing wise, you are better off attacking at around 170 - 180 food vs most protoss builds.
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[QUOTE]On January 24 2012 19:25 Micket wrote:
[QUOTE]On January 24 2012 16:42 aebriol wrote: MC vs Stephano daybreak is a great example. Stephano tech to Broodlords asap and MC's 3 base timing completely crushed it. [/QUOTE]
Is there a vod for that?
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On January 24 2012 19:25 Micket wrote:
On January 24 2012 16:42 aebriol wrote: MC vs Stephano daybreak is a great example. Stephano tech to Broodlords asap and MC's 3 base timing completely crushed it.
Is there a vod for that?
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EPT
