TL;DR, I just got promoted to Diamond a few weeks ago and since I stopped doing the so popular 1/1/1 all-in build (which gave me a pretty high win rate of +/- 90%) and switched to a more economic focused play style like the 1 Rax expand (or in the case of this replay the 2Rax offensive) I'm having a lot of problems with mid- till lategame Protoss. For me the variety of the death ball seems endless and nearly any composition feels like an overwhelming force compared to my MMMGV.
I'm focussing harder on Ghost and Vikings now, because I think the two factors will decide the end of any battle:
1. Collosus focus with Vikings from an optimale angle. 2. Hitting with good EMPs
I have the feeling that if I fail any of those and Stim+A Click this will be the end of the game quite soon with the result that my army gets crushed, even though I'm even on upgrades.
In one of the replays I uploaded, I scout his Dark Shrine and even destroy it, plus I get his Twillight Council. Even considering that he got his natural very late I still manage to lose that game somehow. I know that my engagement was more than poorly, so that's the reason I lost, right? I should haved concentrate on my macro and just keep my advantage.
But back to my main question:
How to effectly deal with the Archon/Chargelot mix? I can't get a good idea of how to beat this composition. I'm grateful for any advice. Thanks my friends
Key to beating a chargelot archon army is having the right composition. You want mostly ghosts and marines (say 3:1 marines to marauders) and like i prefer having about 13 ghosts with cloak, but you want at the very least 6 ghosts.
Yeah, mid-lategame TvP is tough right now. I don't think theres an easy answer other than simply playing better than your opponent. I would argue against a marine-heavy bio ball, both Archons and Storm will dominate Marines. Yeah Marauders suck against Zeal/Archon too, but at least you're not risking the game on making perfect EMPs.
I've had the most success against Zeal/Archon in the lategame by trading out some (not all) Marines for Hellions and Vikings for Banshees.
Hellions are actually pretty good against Templar. Just having a handful forces the P to either keep their HTs back or make Collosi. They don't take much damage from Archons because they're not bio and have a larger unit box. They're fast and mobile enough to dodge 3+ storms just like Marauders, and they don't require Medivac support.
The key thing is not to overmake Hellions, because they suck vs every other unit composition. You just want to make enough to encourage the P to go back to Robo/Stargate, which MMMGV handles quite well.
From a protoss point of view, i have many Problems with mass medivac that heals the huuuuge bioball + kitting, because my sentrys are to slow so you cant really forcefield the Terrans army... I think its kinda hard if the terran just kites, no matter if there are tons of chargelots, the archons slow to in comparison to stimmed bio. And Chargelots melt to mass healing without doing to much damage. Iam kinda stuck right now. Even Lost a Game where i was goin Nexux first/ Nexux/forge/ gateway xD
General advice for terran facing chargelot/archon:
1. Choose your fights, scan area of your attack if you are venturing deep into enemy territory. You need a kite/escape route (back where you came from). It is easy to get surprised / surrounded by chargelots and you want to avoid that.
2. Stutter-step: whenever engaging zealot/archon ball, you want to stim + stutter step micro (alternating fire/move commands) to minimize the bio-concave of chargelots (i.e. have the zealots running in line after you instead of surrounding you). Run extra when you need to dodge storms.
3. Upgrades. Chargelot/archon builds often involve 2x chronoboosted forges. If you see P forces are at a significant upgrade advantage, do everything you can to avoid a direct army confrontation at least until your current bio upgrades are finished. Needless to say, you will need 2x engineering bays to keep up with P.
4. Ghosts are the key: Chargelots tend to aggregate in tight formations and you should be able to get juicy EMPs off. Archons are a joke if you brought ample ghosts. If you are heavy on ghosts, chain snipe zealots will also reduce their numbers at an insane rate. Cloaked ghosts + viking/scan to eliminate P observers is a very nice way to gain sick EMPs before a game-ending battle. In theory, Raven seeker missile would be a fun addition when up against hordes of zealots!
EDIT 5. Air control: the chargelot/archon army composition is another way of P saying "you can have air superiority". Cloacked banshees with 1 viking to snipe observers would in theory be a viable addition to the terran army.
This one is tough, because the best way to engage the zealots is to ball to reduce the surface the area. But archons have splash and that is just what they want. But if you spread you are given those zealot the perfect chance to get at you. IMO best approach is to never just stand there and engage. Keep kiting away from their ball. This should start whittling down the number of zealots. When there are fewer zealots then try to engage and spread your units. But you will have to keep dancing around waiting for a really good moment to attack.
I was wondering... if kiting is considered one of the best way to approach this formation, wouldn't marauders with cuncussive be a good choice, even if they have a lower dps against this composition?
- they make kiting zealots a LOT better (of course after the initial inevitable charge)
- they resist better to storms
- being bigger, they are less vulnerable to archons' area damage
- with their longer range, they can kite Archons' too a bit better
Of course they are going to cut in the gas available for ghosts, which would be in lower number..
yes thats why you have some marauders mixed in, but not a lot. Your only gonna be hitting / slowing the zealots in the front anyway so you dont need that many.
Well of course the terran mid-late game bioball vs P consists of marauder focused marine-marauder-medivac-ghost (MMMG) + vikings. Naturally the marauders need concussive shells.
And kiting is the only correct way to approach the protoss army until the chargelots are dead
only thing i can tell you when someone is going Chargelot/Archons is to drop.
i remember select demolishing a protoss on antiga with medivac heavy play. you should look for that game.gsl code a i think
but then this charge thing shifted away in to blink first. and that is why artosis is keep saying get blink first on his stream. because you can NOT deal with drops with Chargelot/Archons choke points/high ground/low ground.just pick him apart
but im not talking about late game here im talking about mid game.
u had the first game won. Ive paused it at 9:30, initial notes:
* stim and combat shields should both be done by 9:45, you took waaay too long on those. Neither of those were done at 12:30 and you engaged the P - disastrous! Conc shell is nice but it comes last im my books. Combat shields first.
* get an ebay at 6:00. This is for DT insurance and the +1 weapons to combine with stim. Put a tower behind your rax. So many times the P will inadvertently run his obs over your turret and die.
* lastly, try to use your depots adjacent to your rax as a wall so your troops can get out but DTs can just waltz in. Build 3rd or 4th rax outside. Leave SPort in your base like u did.
I tend to focus more on my macro than on my unit composition except when dealing with very heavy storm or more than 4 collosus.
In general, if your macro is solid and your upgrades are equal to your opponent Chargelot Archon by itself should not beat you unless you just get completely stomped on a single engagement which shouldn't happen normally without Storm/Collosus. Z/A stops being cost efficient in larger engagements, while it is very good in smaller sub-200/200 engagements. It also doesn't scale as well with upgrades as Terran bio does.
That being said, a few keys to handling Chargelot/Archon is to make sure you choose your engagements carefully. Chokes are your friend unless they are sentry heavy in which case their archon count is likely to be much lower.
On January 12 2012 19:17 Aervhorn wrote: EDIT 5. Air control: the chargelot/archon army composition is another way of P saying "you can have air superiority". Cloacked banshees with 1 viking to snipe observers would in theory be a viable addition to the terran army.
Or Battlecruisers. Yamato Cannon is pretty good against Archons, and with their size, they don't take as much splash damage as Banshees.
Keep in mind that chargelot archon deals really badly with A) Drops B) Chokes
If you spot your protoss opponent going for a heavy chargelot archon play, ulitize your mobillity advantage and keep your main army behind a wall or in the very least in a choke. This will completely destroy the composition.
If you leave your unit in the middle of the map trying to take 40 zealots head on you are doing it wrong
Like somone said, add more Ghost, Banshee Hellion instead so many Marines
The main army should be Marauder Hellion Medivac -> Banshee + Ghost
Banshees does more damage than Vikings to Colosus, you only need Cloack and learn to kill the Obs with 2 Vikings if you like, if you have skill and can use that mixes propperly, no one Protoss will beat you wit simply A+Click or throwing few Storms
Look at Sinistry's Anti Colossi Build for more info, it could help you, GL
Play even more greedy. Bunkers are really good. Build really fast inbase 3rd and pump workers from it, then lift it out to ur third when going out to put pressure on toss at ~11 min.
Just faced this today and i dunno how to beat this.
>>How to effectly deal with the Archon/Chargelot mix?
The only times I've beaten chargelot/archon/templar is when I've had an overwhelming supply advantage. (170 vs 140 for example) Nailing EMPs on top of all of the templar is too hard now with the EMP nerf. I stopped trying late game macro and decided to bitbybit my TvP and focus on crippling the protoss in the early game.
If you do want to try it, I suggest high medivac count and a reasonable viking count based on number of colossi. (If you have more than 10 vikings you're going to lose on the ground, unless protoss is getting >4 colossus) Hide behind 8 or so bunkers and planetaries and try dropping mm everywhere. (Make sure you select your most depleted medivacs for this purpose since you can expect protoss to have templar at all expansions) If protoss doesn't have any templar in his army then you could mass about 25 ghosts and send 2-3 emps to every archon. Focus them after they lose shields. Make sure to have a good spread and kite micro every flank of your army separately against zealots.
The best thing I can suggest though is to play to your race's strengths. Macroing until limit plays into the protoss hands. Instead, open reactor techlab barracks with immediate stim research (skip conc) and take an earlier expansion than your opponent. If protoss took a disgustingly early expansion, bring a few scvs along with your army and cancel it for him.
On January 12 2012 23:20 Bulldozor wrote: Keep in mind that chargelot archon deals really badly with A) Drops B) Chokes
If you spot your protoss opponent going for a heavy chargelot archon play, ulitize your mobillity advantage and keep your main army behind a wall or in the very least in a choke. This will completely destroy the composition.
If you leave your unit in the middle of the map trying to take 40 zealots head on you are doing it wrong
Warping in charglots does very well against drops, as charglots raaaaape bio. And they will probably have HT around their bases to feedback dropships
EPT
