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Hello TL. It's the holidays and like you, I'm noticing the lack of SC2 content as our favorite players and casters enjoy the break. This has gotten me playing more, and thinking more, and a nagging question came to my head. It's not about balance or builds or macro, its about scouting and how certain opponents on ladder make me play a guessing game I don't want to play -- and how I wish I could turn the tables on them.
I noticed a lot of terrans play ambiguously vs zerg. If you can't scout their gas and they get an early wall off, It's very difficult to determine their intentions for sure when all you can see is one damn barracks and some depots. Are they expanding? Teching? 2raxing? Even if you scout their production, their buildings can produce lots of very different units, then you must consider that all the addons could all be used differently once your scout timing is over. Then there's the early mindgames of proxy rax or "maka rax", where the terran plays standard but starts the required buildings for their opener in weird positions. Terrans have figured out a lot of ways to hide what they're doing.
But this isn't about how to scout a terran or a balance whine. My question is, how do we, as zerg players, deny scouting against opponents and remain ambiguous? I'll be clear here and state firstly that I don't expressly mean, "How do I cheese?", I'm more interested in how to play mostly standard without letting my opponent become comfortable with the knowledge that i'm playing standard, OR specific well-proven ways to hide things with a specific strategy (For example, mutalisk play and crazy hidden expansions go hand in hand).
I'd love to see what people think about this, and to foster discussion I'll leave a few points here for each matchup.
Zerg vs Terran:
I feel like there is actually no opportunity to hide anything in this matchup. First of all, the current metagame is that the Terran is aggressive early against the zerg, this aggression also gets them scouting information. Your whole economy and build order is more or less revealed at the start no matter what, having no wall to hide behind - and lets face it, you probably went 15hatch anyway. In the event that you manage to deny first the scouting SCV and any sort of marine/hellion aggression, the terran can just scan you and the radius of the scan is pretty big so its hard to hide tech.
Fast forward to the late game, scans are more plentiful and medivac drops are constant. The terran almost always has eyes on your bases and buildings, and can frequently scan your spire and lair to detect tech timings. You can proxy some tech with overlords but that's risky of course, so is placing any valuable tech building off by the edge of a base rather than in a safe protected location.
questions for discussion:
Is it possible to play ambiguously vs terran? What do Terran players look for and how can we obfuscate what we are doing even if they see certain pieces of information? How can I hide my army composition even if my buildings are scouted (remaining ambiguous)?
Zerg vs Protoss
In this matchup opening pool first is standard and initial zerglings give you map control enough to keep the FFE protoss in the dark. I feel like this is why I like this matchup best; in the early game as long as I expand relatively early, I can tech or take a quick third and keep the protoss in the dark about which it is I'm doing.
However the midgame/lategame is where I have a problems. It astounds me but - almost every ZvP I play, the protoss eventually gets an observer sitting on my rally point, usually for several minutes before I accidentally bring detection there. This frustrates me to no end when I watch a replay - Obviously anything I do with my army at that point will be hard countered which makes it really difficult. Not only do I lose all my ambiguity, but I am not even aware that I'm being observed. My army position, composition, and upgrades are laid bare to the protoss and often they don't even scout my base for the tech -- they just watch what kind army marches out of my hatcheries and know what's coming next.
Being a cloaked air unit its tough to find and even tougher to kill, I've seen zerg pros use 2x fungal growth rather than get some antiair and detection in the same place since the terrestrial nature of zerg makes hunting them with regular units pretty difficult. Hallucinated phoenix are even harder to deal with -- are they even worth it to attack? At least in that case burrow is helpful for hiding units but since its a "free fake" unit it has no problem suiciding to dig out information about tech structures.
questions for discussion:
How to deny observers in general? How to know if being observed -- Where are they likely to be hiding? How do protoss players identify my build -- and how can we make it tricky for them to do so? Is there anything I can show them without significant cost to myself that will give them the wrong idea? (Eg: feigning mutas, really going roaches)?
Zerg vs Zerg
Love/hate for this matchup, scouting is a real pain here. The more frequently you see what comes out of the enemy hatcheries, the better idea you have of what's going on.
I actually think its easiest to hide your intentions in ZvZ. A build like speedling expand can go so many different directions, it comes down to seeing the actual army composition and drone counts, as well as the actual sim-city in the front. Lots of spines could mean mutalisks, a roach warren doesn't necessarily mean roaches. Evo chambers don't actually mean upgrades any time soon, but then again they might indicate a timing push.
However I have a real difficult time with ling-scout runbys, even in the midgame. Speedlings are just so fast, even if i catch it on the minimap it can be really tough to deny unless I have a full unit wall with roach/queen on my ramp. Also an overlord or overseer almost always gets in at some point, I know it's going to happen but I'd like to have a better chance at killing it before it leaves (or how to ward it away from what I don't want seen). In the midgame and lategame your tech buildings give away a lot more information if scouted.
questions for discussion:
Tactics for denying ling scouts? Is it worth it to make an aggressive queen (whose job it is to spread creep and push away overlords)? What can be done to make overseer scouting more difficult for my opponent? Is it more or less risky to proxy-build tech buildings under an overlord in this matchup?
Replays, links to vods, or just general good strategy would all be very much appreciated. Especially terran and protoss players, I'd like to know what makes you feel "in the dark" vs zerg, and what steps you take to see what they're doing more clearly. I know this post was a bit long, so thanks for reading!
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I have a couple of ideas abut how to deny scouting in specific matchups and in all matchups in general:
In general, you can use drone saturation to trick your opponents. A great example is in ZvZ where you can transfer drones from main to natural to make it seem like you have been droning more than you have, when really there is an all-in building up in your main base. I think you can also use this against Terrans, perhaps, if they go reactor hellion you can go for a roach-ling all-in and transfer drones to natural. I wouldn't really recommend that, though...they might not even be able to see your drone count with the hellions.
One trick I've seen Nerchio use on big maps is to use an overlord to spew creep and then build a spire there. It hides your tech and makes it impossible to scout. Surely, if the game becomes a super macro game, then it will be a vulnerability. but on a map like Tal Darim I think it will be totally fine.
Also, in late-game you can really throw your opponents for a loop by tech switching, which is something the other two races really can not do. For instance, in ZvT you can get both an ultralisk cavern and a greater spire next to each other, which will keep them guessing about what you are going to do. Plus, it keeps the capability for an instant tech-switch if he goes viking heavy or marauder heavy or something like that.
Oh, one more idea is in ZvT and ZvZ, especially, you can cancel tech and switch it up. This is especially important in the early and mid-game. For instance, you can show roaches in ZvZ and then switch to ling-bane, or vice-versa. In ZvT, you can also show spire then cancel it after a scan and go infestors, or show infestors then switch to muta. I think these strategies are pretty tricky because you will show your opponent the tech, which means putting it in a very scout-able position. Kinda tricksy :D
You could also do standard things like hiding an expo and sending drones there, which might make your opponent feel like you are undersaturated and either really bad or really all-ining and hiding some units.
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There are a few major problems going against Zerg as far as denying scouting. I don't think there is any effective way of denying early game scouting or obfuscating builds before speedlings are out. It is very easy to scout zerg openings if you happen to find their base with a worker scout.
What people scout for in Zerg bases:
gas timing
pool timing
hatchery timing
number of harvesters before a pool or gas is thrown down
If you see gas drop before pool it means speedlings or possibly early banelings depending on the matchup. If they see a large number of workers but no gas and no pool it is safe to assume a fast hatchery build is in the works. If they scout pool first and a gas before the hatchery it usually means roaches. If they scout a hatchery.... you see what I mean?
I don't think you can do anything sneaky without proxying a hatchery somewhere before you have speedlings on the map. An example of this is using speedlings to deny scouting from a FFE protoss and then running a roach ling all in to bust their wall or expanding and teching up knowing he can't move out.
When you hit lair you have more options. Because we only need to build a tech structure to produce infinite numbers of a unit it makes it possible to hide tech in the same way protoss can with pylons or terran sometimes do with proxy production facilities. If you wanted to it's easy enough to pre-place an overlord and have a drone on the map somewhere ready for lair to finish to drop a hidden spire, infestation pit, or hydra den.
Also, it's important to note that it is difficult to scout zerg upgrades. With terran and protoss you can easily see which building is upgrading and know what that upgrade is. This is most important with upgrades on your hatchery like overlord drop and speed or burrow.
As far as denying scouting of your army composition, with creep spread and high speed units in the zerg arsenal it's a good idea to keep your army moving around the map or spread it out a little to set up for flanks and disguise the army strength. This will also help with your scouting and allow you to engage on better terms with your opponents. I think the key to doing this is having a good overlord spread on the map and expanding creep tumors so that you have time to react. Nothing is worse than not scouting that double medivac drop or the protoss army before it's on your front door when your army is wandering around checking for their third or fourth base.
My question is this: Is the risk of placing an expensive tech building somewhere on the map worth the denial of a building scout? My problems with it are two fold. The buildings are expensive in gas and production time which makes them mega suck to lose if scouted and very difficult to defend since they aren't in your base. Second, I don't know if it's worth it anyway because of indirect scouting of army composition. It's the same way if you scout a protoss and see like two sentries you can expect stargate or templar tech.
Possible solutions: Hiding your tech buildings in the location of your third base might provide some measure of safety for them. I mean, you only need to suprise them once, so why not build the tech structure somewhere that WILL be safe at some point. Problem here is that it makes it more likely to be scouted.
To deny indirect scouting you have to keep your army hidden until you need it. This can be APM intensive though and you run the risk of being caught out of position if your scouting isn't up to par.
Thoughts?
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Interesting post.
In answer to all of these questions you have to remember that the building only indicates the possibility of a given unit. Okay, it's unlikely that you're going to invest 200-200 in an early spire unless you are going for big muta pressure but the likelihood of scouting the timing of a building is small and the fact that you have a roach warren doesn't mean that you're going mass roach. So it's actually your production cycles that count, tech switching and whatnot. The most important thing seems to be hiding your army composition and for this we have burrow and the space of the map. This also seems to help with surrounds and guerrilla tactics. This is all theorycrafting but here are some ideas:
ZvT - Hidden buildings on creep, burrowed banelings to use up scans.
ZvP - An overseer outside the enemy base seems crucial - if u spot an observer follow it and pull out its eyes. A spore in each base.
ZvZ - I love blocking my ramp(s). Try to snipe sneaky overlords and your opponent can be caught with their trousers down.
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Hmm. You are Zerg so why you just don´t build every tech structure and decide which units you want to go for? Building a tech structure isn´t a big deal as Zerg as it cost some Money and 1 Drone, that just important when you are just droning up in the early game, but then you can just throw down every tech structure and just get the upgrades for the units, you want to be using. F.e. if he scans and he see´s your spire and you have a roach warren, which he didn´t spottet you can just make a lot of roaches to crush his Marine, Tank Push then goto mass Muta and herrass his third.
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Scans aren't that big of an area; I used to be very caught off guard when an opposing Zerg would put his/her spire in his/her natural instead of main.
This can be expanded to a lot of different things, there's a standard for how things are done, unspoken most of the time, but figuring out what these things are and changing them slightly can all work for your advantage in 1v1s. Examples could include upgrading your natural to lair tech, or taking a 3rd that isn't the most obvious.
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Easy - Just play like FD used to and make every tech structure :D
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i find it hard to deny scouting as zerg not because we can't scout it, it's because we are very predictable. most if not all my ZvTs are 15 hatch, into muta/ling/bling midgame. ZvP, it's drone up and when you spot their timing, pump out units which is usually roach/ling. I think zerg still have many viable builds that haven't been used effectively yet.
in ZvT we have to scout many things but once you do the scouting, many of the threats that we are thinking about is eliminated. What Terran did there is keep zerg on edge and on the defensive before deciding what to do. Zerg has ways to do this to opponent as well (whether they Z,P, or T). Baneling mines make players very cautious with their army therefore either making them waste resources in playing safe (just like how Zerg has to react with spores against many threat).
Overlord drops also put them on edge and make them use their apm or multi-task on defending their mineral line or tech structures. It might be expensive but when you reveal the tech, you can keep feinting the baneling drop and force their attention so you can do an attack else where.
Another underused tech right now is nydus wyrm. It's very costly but can delay opponent as they know they can't move out without getting back stabbed.
these tech that are underused is what allows zerg to force the opponent to make more decisions and mistakes. Right now zerg is too narrow in most of our approaches in all match ups.
ofcourse this is all theory craft but i think it just requires timing/game sense (building the expensive tech without dying to an opponent's attack) and multi-task, which is tough stuff
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On January 01 2012 03:52 UltraRush wrote:
Easy - Just play like FD used to and make every tech structure :D
I definitely don't think this is the solution. Gas is precious and you can't really say "okay protoss, i have a hydra den, spire, infestation pit AND baneling next, what NOW?" because you won't actually have any units except queens and lings, and evo chamber upgrades will be hard to pay for too. plus making every building seems kind of noobie, doesnt sound like it would work anymore in high ladder leagues.
I think always have a roach warren is good, since it only costs 150 minerals, opens the possibility of roaches, without ever actually spending gas on roaches. Plus its a good building to use as part of a wall-off, you show it to your opponent so they have to think about roaches too. Being able to swap to roaches and then swap back out is always useful.
beyond that though its hard to be too tech switchy and actually have a real army and macro properly, you just cant afford it until you have 6-8 extractors running. Looking for ideas with a low cost is a better way to go I think, since stuff like drone/unit/building positioning is free but few people really take advantage of it. I see possibilities in extra queens too, since they dont cost larva and are good general defense units.
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As mentioned above, it is difficult to spot buildings that aren't placed in traditional locations in your see. I would recommend covering your main in creep anyway for vision purposes, but I have on occasion hidden tech in a weird spot in my main. However, you still make it easier to pick off with drops or siege tank fire if you aren't careful. Also, there is still the problem of what benefit do Zerg players derive from hiding tech? If your opponents aren't being placed on the back foot with hidden tech it doesn't serve a purpose. If we are going to continue discussing tech hiding it should be coupled with a strategy that uses the hidden tech to advantage, e.g. early mutas. The only problem I have with something like that is the propensity of Terran and Protoss players to make a timing push off two bases at about the time you are army-less if you rush to muta tech. I'm not sure something like that will benefit Zerg players until we start seeing more three base greed builds in our matchups.
On the subject of tech switching, I think that is the place Zergs really shine. Mid and late game tech switches are brutal, especially into a large muta flock after you trade armies. This, to me, is the tradeoff for not being able to stop scouting. Now that I think about it, a build designed to crush a two base timing that includes a hidden spire might be very powerful. Maybe a strategy involving saturation on two base on 2 gas or something with a third hatch after lair would provoke an attack you could take advantage of. If you hid a spire somewhere right when lair finishes you could make a flock to eat workers at a time when your opponent wants to expand. Not sure if resources can be spared though. You'd have fewer roaches to hold the attack off because of gas and fewer spines because of the spire. Also, the timing might be late. It is something we can explore anyway!
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You can put a spore at your rally point vs protoss and move it around a little from time to time to keep observers away or even kill them if they are slow to react.
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Regarding observer spotting (from the zerg POV), is there a definite answer to what the best graphical settings are? I know there were some conflicting ideas a while back but that was before some patches went through.
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Still looking for more ideas (remember: the goal is to deny information or do something standard/free that obfuscates the actual zerg game plan).
I like hiding tech in combo with using burrow in ZvT to keep their scans used.
I like always having a roach warren in a visible location, in every matchup.
The idea that upgrades are hidden until you reveal them is interesting, I'm not sure what use that would be beyond burrow and drops as most zerg upgrades are passive.
It seems the general consensus that hiding tech buildings under overlords is OK, as long as it isnt somewhere totally crazy. I have tried putting my spire at my third in ZvP with some success, but I don't know that it has helped me not be scouted.
I hoped there'd be more interest in this discussion, I know there's some tricky masters zerg out there with some ideas don't involve horrible macro choices.
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As a P player, I don't necessarily think the goal should be to hide your tech, it should be to hide your unit composition as much as possible. One thing that particularly scares me is when I have scouted a spire and I know that Z is going for mutas. The question is, how many? You might be going for a huge muta ball, or you might be going mass roach behind the initial mutalisks. I would say keep a spore or overseer at your rally point/with your army or don't just leave your army lying somewhere in a huge ball and you can probably make a lot of P players uncomfortable. I know that I am used to being able to just leave an observer on top of a Z army for most of the game.
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What league are you in? Not that it matters too much, but I don't see too much consistent value in denying scouting at the level you're talking about. If you're going roach, toss can't "hard counter" it. Yes, he can make immortals, or void rays, but you in turn have the ability to counter those units as well, preemptively even. like a toss player showing stargate then teching rapidly to collossus for the hydra switch. Besides doing the obvious things like patrolling the map with speedlings to deny easy worker/zealot/marine scouts, a good player is going to find your tech in the ways you described. I'm sure the same goes the opposite way. I'm a toss and rarely do I ever win games because I hid 4-5 collossus and a-moved his ling/hydra ball because he didn't know my tech. Good players are able to infer unit compositions using information like gas timings, current unit value (min/gas), base timing, unit posturing, etc. Not to mention the obvious things like observers/scans/hallucinations.
But anyway, to contribute to this thread. Keep an overseer with your army. Showing an early spire can be a great tactic. It'll force twilight tech, cannons, and stop aggression if the Toss player is any good. If he does attack you immediately, abuse the hell out of him with muta/ling. If he reacts strongly, you can wait on the mutas or skip them entirely and continue with roaches. Start a small muta ball to curve his tech route then completely ditch muta and make a huge roach ball. Besides that there really isn't much I can think of.
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There a couple of good ideas which will help stop some scouting but i'll always remember what Day[9] commented, about the best players/builds being able to stomp whatever is coming at them- regardless if it has been scouted or not.
EDIT: But we all arn't the best players  So let's proxy our tech! :3
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On January 02 2012 08:34 bgalang92 wrote:
What league are you in? Not that it matters too much, but I don't see too much consistent value in denying scouting at the level you're talking about.
I play in diamond, bump into low masters players sometimes, but I'm sure these ideas are good at all levels. The concept is that making scouting harder for them is free, or at least cheap. That, and in the early game there's a lot of time to do stuff while scouting and droning so may as well take a few seconds to do these easy/free things, like careful building placement or whatever.
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EPT
