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I had someone go mass archon against me.... kind of ridiculous.
I was 1kpoint masters, this guy was diamond. He opened 3 gate DT, I held it off extremely easily, and grabbed a quick third. I was ahead of this guy the entire game, and when he went to take a third I put on pressure, but wasn't quite able to kill him.
He then just massed archons all game. He made some phoenix too, I just made corruptors to deal with his weird hodgepodge of zealot/archon/phoenix. I normally go roach/bane/infestor and handle it easily, but this guy just purely made only archons instead of any accompanying zealots. I don't think he was maxed, but he pretty much pushed off with a mass archon ball and I couldnt quite have anything to deal with it. I put on a lot of aggression, but tried to never overcommit without dealing equal damage to him.
i was pretty much maxed the entire game long. Kept up on upgrades, that kind of stuff.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-241529.jpg)
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First thing first how the fuck do you get 1k master and still play diamonds o.o !?
Now ot, mass archon seems like kind of a bitch if you let him get it so lets talk not letting him get it.
First thing firs archons have freaking 3 range that means you can go for a hydra bust with ovys creeping and kill his forge and w.e without him being able to really do anything and then you can be annoying with the hydras and try to kite the archons in sort of a "nanan 3 more range then you" fashino ( pretty much how a T would kite your ling with a reaper ).
oky now vs the actual mass archon... gues what ? archons have 3 range gues what has 9 range ? fungual ? gues what the patch blizzard released recently did... not removing fungual stunt. You get the idea, and yeah it is tiring to kill 40 archons with 20 infestors and support roaches but it works
You can also go fast blords + infestor and then they are really in deep shit or even broodlords roach if you can't afford infestor other then that 200/200 roach and enough larva to remax can also work if you kite well enough or hydra with good enough kiteing.
Alas it is only theory since i have never ever been in a situation to play mass archon or to play vs it but thats what sound most reasonable to me to deal with them.
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Infestors with neural + i personally use ling bling (enough blings to mostly remove all zealots) but I think using roach ling instead of ling bling is quite a bit better (mainly roach heavy, you just build lings with excess minerals).
But in the end regardless if you chose ling bling or roach ling it comes down to having infestors with neural, when you got that you just roflstomp archon zealot, and you seem to know how to deal with phoenix so np there.
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First thing first how the fuck do you get 1k master and still play diamonds o.o !?
Customs, other accounts, etc.
Now ot, mass archon seems like kind of a bitch if you let him get it so lets talk not letting him get it.
Maybe you should watch the game...
From what I've understood and personal experience, roach/hydra is worse than pure roach against archons.
You can also go fast blords + infestor and then they are really in deep shit or even broodlords roach if you can't afford infestor other then that 200/200 roach and enough larva to remax can also work if you kite well enough or hydra with good enough kiteing.
Alas it is only theory since i have never ever been in a situation to play mass archon or to play vs it but thats what sound most reasonable to me to deal with them.
So, you are telling me that while I'm 'not letting him get archons' I somehow must also be getting 8 broodlords, which costs over 2k in gas to get? And throw a few infestors in there too.
Alas it is only theory since i have never ever been in a situation to play mass archon or to play vs it but thats what sound most reasonable to me to deal with them.
You would think.
But in the end regardless if you chose ling bling or roach ling it comes down to having infestors with neural, when you got that you just roflstomp archon zealot, and you seem to know how to deal with phoenix so np there.
So infestors are the answer? I think whenever you try to be aggressive with zerg, it just blows up in your face. I need to stop trying to be aggressive with zerg ;/
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Did you mean 1k masters this season or last? There are like less than 10 people who are 1k masters right now. ><"
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United States8477 Posts
You just had extremely poor decision making the entire game. Your lings got into his base and you should have known some dt expand or stupid chargelot timing was coming. Didn't need 5 spines. Instead, scout his expansion and take a fast 3rd. You then tried to go roach/baneling drop off 2 base, which should only be done as an allin. Because you took such a late 3rd and invested in so much tech, you couldn't deny his third. You especially shouldn't blindly go this roach baneling drop tech route. To be honest, roach baneling is only good versus a protoss who goes straight colossi. You're better off with other choices if he opens voidray, phenoix, immortals archons, or blink stalkers. For your situation, just mass roach, nothing but roach and macro. Have hydra or corruptor tech, but honestly you don't even have to get the actual versus so few phenoix.
You also make 4 spores in your natural for some reason and 3 in your main...
You have 3 evo chambers for some reason as well....
In conclusion:
- Poor macro decisions which left you behind in economy
- Blindly choosing a tech
- Not having enough roaches to deny his 3rd because of the previous 2 reasons
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surely hydras + fungals can clean up archon/phoenix with no troubles?
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If Archons can hit the opponent, they're effective against every zerg unit. Fungal + More-than-range-3-units, Broodlords or neural parasite work really well.
If he has the gas to go mass Archon, you have the gas to get Broodlords or Infestors, although it may not be the best idea to go for both simultaneously.
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He basically just outmacroed you -- despite some extremely nice baneling hits on his zealots, you just didn't have enough roaches to finish off the army. He was equal or ahead of you on bases and worker count for the most of the game, which is definitely not what you want to have happen if you go roaches. That said, I think you should have taken your third and fourth much earlier, and I disagree with the choice of corruptors. Infestors are much better for killing phoenix and help immensely against his main zealot-archon army. You might even consider getting neural parasite (yes, I know people really hate it now, but it actually works quite well against archons due to their short range). However, if you do get corruptors, you only need maybe 2 for every 3 phoenix at most -- not 10 for 6. Your high corruptor count really cut into your roach production.
Also, please try to give a more accurate summary of the game next time -- it really helps if you want accurate advice. You did not take a "quick" third -- you didn't take one until the 12 minute mark (well past the "standard" third timing of 10 minutes), which was almost exactly when your opponent took his third. You were behind on upgrades all game, and in fact did not max out until 1 minute before the game ended.
Sorry for the rage, but since so many people seem to not watch the replay when responding to these threads, it's really important to give an accurate description if you want useful advice.
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Don't lie about your skill level, 1k masters this season is essentially GM level.
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You just had extremely poor decision making the entire game. Your lings got into his base and you should have known some dt expand or stupid chargelot timing was coming. Didn't need 5 spines. Instead, scout his expansion and take a fast 3rd. You then tried to go roach/baneling drop off 2 base, which should only be done as an allin. Because you took such a late 3rd and invested in so much tech, you couldn't deny his third. You especially shouldn't blindly go this roach baneling drop tech route. To be honest, roach baneling is only good versus a protoss who goes straight colossi. You're better off with other choices if he opens voidray, phenoix, immortals archons, or blink stalkers. For your situation, just mass roach, nothing but roach and macro. Have hydra or corruptor tech, but honestly you don't even have to get the actual versus so few phenoix.
He had 3 gateways. If he had done a gateway all-in or dt/gateway or archon/gateway all-in, I would've died. I had zero units, and didn't plan to make any. I don't think the spines were bad considering how I followed up, but I don't want to reject your advice. That's just how I see it, and I think making spines wasn't a bad decision. If it was just 2 gateways or a single gateway, I would not have made so many.
I was also a little worried he would transition into blink, since he didn't put the DT shrine down when I was in his base. A 3 gate blink all-in would've killed me, so I made lots of spines. It wasn't immediately clear what he was doing, and he could've been doing either of those based on what I scouted.
Instead, scout his expansion and take a fast 3rd. You then tried to go roach/baneling drop off 2 base, which should only be done as an allin.
Can't take a third without overseer against DTs. I saw the Dts and so stuck to 2 base. I got my third quite quickly as fast as I could. I may have tried to pressure first.
Because you took such a late 3rd and invested in so much tech, you couldn't deny his third. You especially shouldn't blindly go this roach baneling drop tech route. To be honest, roach baneling is only good versus a protoss who goes straight colossi. You're better off with other choices if he opens voidray, phenoix, immortals archons, or blink stalkers. For your situation, just mass roach, nothing but roach and macro. Have hydra or corruptor tech, but honestly you don't even have to get the actual versus so few phenoix.
I didn't blindly go roach/baneling drop. My composition of choice in a ZvP where it's even bases (ie not fast third vs ffe) is ling/baneling rain. I went with roaches instead due to archons.
So you think the drop tech wasn't worth it? I should just mass pure roach next time? I went with speedbanes once I saw no sentries.
You also make 4 spores in your natural for some reason and 3 in your main...
You have 3 evo chambers for some reason as well....
4 spores because of the phoenixes, 3 evo chambers for upgrades. I thought 3 evo would be good with what I was doing.
In conclusion:
Poor macro decisions which left you behind in economy
Blindly choosing a tech
Not having enough roaches to deny his 3rd because of the previous 2 reasons
I think i was quite ahead in econ, no? I don't think my macro decision were poor, he had Dts, can't take a third without spores. I didn't blindly choose tech, ling/bane is what I consider standard, and I went with roaches as a reaction to what he was doing.
So next time I see archons like this, just go pure roach, eventually infestors?
If he has the gas to go mass Archon, you have the gas to get Broodlords or Infestors, although it may not be the best idea to go for both simultaneously.
Watch the game then. Archons much easier to get out then broodlords or infestors. It's not like he pushed when he was maxed, I reckon he was around 140.
Infestors are much better for killing phoenix and help immensely against his main zealot-archon army. You might even consider getting neural parasite (yes, I know people really hate it now, but it actually works quite well against archons due to their short range). However, if you do get corruptors, you only need maybe 2 for every 3 phoenix at most -- not 10 for 6. Your high corruptor count really cut into your roach production.
Hm okay. I thought infestors wouldn't have cut it against the phoenix and would take too much gas. But okay, I see how I made too many corruptors. I just won't make corruptors next time.
Don't lie about your skill level, 1k masters this season is essentially GM level.
Thanks for the insightful post. I'll be sure to edit the OP to please you. I was 1k masters last season.
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corrupters are trash unit, unless its for stupid amounts of collosus or mothership.
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^ Yea, I think maybe I wasted too much on them. I guess infestors would've been the right choice.
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United States8477 Posts
On November 13 2011 15:26 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +You just had extremely poor decision making the entire game. Your lings got into his base and you should have known some dt expand or stupid chargelot timing was coming. Didn't need 5 spines. Instead, scout his expansion and take a fast 3rd. You then tried to go roach/baneling drop off 2 base, which should only be done as an allin. Because you took such a late 3rd and invested in so much tech, you couldn't deny his third. You especially shouldn't blindly go this roach baneling drop tech route. To be honest, roach baneling is only good versus a protoss who goes straight colossi. You're better off with other choices if he opens voidray, phenoix, immortals archons, or blink stalkers. For your situation, just mass roach, nothing but roach and macro. Have hydra or corruptor tech, but honestly you don't even have to get the actual versus so few phenoix.
He had 3 gateways. If he had done a gateway all-in or dt/gateway or archon/gateway all-in, I would've died. I had zero units, and didn't plan to make any. I don't think the spines were bad considering how I followed up, but I don't want to reject your advice. That's just how I see it, and I think making spines wasn't a bad decision. If it was just 2 gateways or a single gateway, I would not have made so many. I was also a little worried he would transition into blink, since he didn't put the DT shrine down when I was in his base. A 3 gate blink all-in would've killed me, so I made lots of spines. It wasn't immediately clear what he was doing, and he could've been doing either of those based on what I scouted. Show nested quote + Instead, scout his expansion and take a fast 3rd. You then tried to go roach/baneling drop off 2 base, which should only be done as an allin. Can't take a third without overseer against DTs. I saw the Dts and so stuck to 2 base. I got my third quite quickly as fast as I could. I may have tried to pressure first. Show nested quote +Because you took such a late 3rd and invested in so much tech, you couldn't deny his third. You especially shouldn't blindly go this roach baneling drop tech route. To be honest, roach baneling is only good versus a protoss who goes straight colossi. You're better off with other choices if he opens voidray, phenoix, immortals archons, or blink stalkers. For your situation, just mass roach, nothing but roach and macro. Have hydra or corruptor tech, but honestly you don't even have to get the actual versus so few phenoix. I didn't blindly go roach/baneling drop. My composition of choice in a ZvP where it's even bases (ie not fast third vs ffe) is ling/baneling rain. I went with roaches instead due to archons. So you think the drop tech wasn't worth it? I should just mass pure roach next time? I went with speedbanes once I saw no sentries. Show nested quote +You also make 4 spores in your natural for some reason and 3 in your main...
You have 3 evo chambers for some reason as well.... 4 spores because of the phoenixes, 3 evo chambers for upgrades. I thought 3 evo would be good with what I was doing. Show nested quote +In conclusion:
Poor macro decisions which left you behind in economy
Blindly choosing a tech
Not having enough roaches to deny his 3rd because of the previous 2 reasons I think i was quite ahead in econ, no? I don't think my macro decision were poor, he had Dts, can't take a third without spores. I didn't blindly choose tech, ling/bane is what I consider standard, and I went with roaches as a reaction to what he was doing. So next time I see archons like this, just go pure roach, eventually infestors?
I think you're being a little too stubborn in your ways to see the points i'm trying to make.
You scout 3 gateways, 3 zealots, delayed warp gate tech, no gas units, and a twilight. What you should have done there is tried to figure out his build. Scout his natural and see if he's taken a natural. A zealot/archon allin requires 4-5 gates. A blink allin requires some amount of stalkers. A standard dt expand from protoss includes 3 gates. From this information, once you scout his expansion, you can definitively conclude that he's dt expanding. Make just 1-2 spores and 1 spine and immediately tech to lair while making a handful of lings. That's all you need, not 5 spines. Your lair was extremely late and thus your overseers were late to take a third.
If you watch the incomes throughout the game, throughout most of the game, you were behind in econ, which is terrible for ZvP.
You make an early evo but don't start any upgrades. Then you make 3 evos to start upgrading everything.
Drop, baneling nest, and overlord speed is way too big an investment on 2 base versus what he was doing. As I've said before, if you get all those on 2 base, you pretty much have to win with those upgrades immediately.
You say you reacted to his tech by going roach baneling drop instead of ling baneling drop. But why go baneling anyways?
You make 9 spores in total on 3 base vs 4 phoenix. I'd consider that a huge overreaction.
You should pretty much never have 3 evos. That kind of play is very unfocused, which is exactly how I would describe your play. You get a little bit of everything but not enough of anything to force things from your opponent.
Imagine if you made 3 spores instead of 9, 1 spine instead of 5, 1-2 evos instead of 3, a faster 3rd, and skip baneling nest and drop. That's about 2300 extra resources you could have saved not including the faster third.
If you ask any good player, they'll tell you the exact same things I did.
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Right...
Your macro was pretty bad. He was ahead of you in workers the entire game, you blindly threw down 5 spines because you saw 3 gates, when instead you should have been looking at his sentry count and expansion timing. Any delay past around 5:40 or so with less sentries than 4-5 is NOT 3 gate expo. Less sentries or no sentries means he's spending his gas on something, and oh crap I just noticed that you SAW the twilight, you drastically overreacted to what was a simple DT expand.
1 spine, 1 spore, a few lings and fast Lair should have been how you responded, but you threw down FIVE SPINES. That's 500 mins + 5 drones needing to be remade.
You then blindly tech to Roach/Bane drop on 2 base, but you DON'T use it to kill his third (which you scout late anyway), you try to take a third, so then you're even. You don't use changelings or ling runbys to get a glimpse of his unit composition, because with good macro mass roach beats mass archon, I don't care what the Toss does. But instead you had crap macro, crap decision making, and well, you deserved to lose..
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On November 13 2011 15:04 NrGmonk wrote:You just had extremely poor decision making the entire game. Your lings got into his base and you should have known some dt expand or stupid chargelot timing was coming. Didn't need 5 spines. Instead, scout his expansion and take a fast 3rd. You then tried to go roach/baneling drop off 2 base, which should only be done as an allin. Because you took such a late 3rd and invested in so much tech, you couldn't deny his third. You especially shouldn't blindly go this roach baneling drop tech route. To be honest, roach baneling is only good versus a protoss who goes straight colossi. You're better off with other choices if he opens voidray, phenoix, immortals archons, or blink stalkers. For your situation, just mass roach, nothing but roach and macro. Have hydra or corruptor tech, but honestly you don't even have to get the actual versus so few phenoix. You also make 4 spores in your natural for some reason and 3 in your main... You have 3 evo chambers for some reason as well.... In conclusion: - Poor macro decisions which left you behind in economy
- Blindly choosing a tech
- Not having enough roaches to deny his 3rd because of the previous 2 reasons
All of this is gold. You made weird trades, expanded after doing an all in, and corruptors were not necessary. The amount of corruptors you did make was overkill; I understand getting corruptor tech for colossi, but for 6 phoenix you don't have to worry about it. Two corruptors max. 5 spines was overkill as well, if you didn't know whether it was blink or DTs, get roach tech and leave a couple lings outside his base. Poke up at 5-6 minutes to see if he has any stalkers. If he's going blink stalkers, he will ideally make 1 zealot and 2 sentries so you should have known it wasn't blink stalkers while you were scouting because he didn't have any stalkers.
In my opinion, you could have expanded more aggressively because you shut down the DTs. Once you saw the archons, you just needed to get a spire and a hydralisk den in case of tech switches and you could win with pure roach and macro against that composition. You weren't spending your gas very well, so you could have gotten more upgrades or infestor tech. Infestors do well against that composition because zealots and archons can't do damage to roaches if they can't move. It gets trickier once he gets all those stalkers and immortals, but it shouldn't have gotten that far tbh. There are various ways to deal with that composition, but I think the game was already lost by the time the push moved out.
On November 13 2011 15:26 Belial88 wrote:
He had 3 gateways. If he had done a gateway all-in or dt/gateway or archon/gateway all-in, I would've died. I had zero units, and didn't plan to make any. I don't think the spines were bad considering how I followed up, but I don't want to reject your advice. That's just how I see it, and I think making spines wasn't a bad decision. If it was just 2 gateways or a single gateway, I would not have made so many.
I was also a little worried he would transition into blink, since he didn't put the DT shrine down when I was in his base. A 3 gate blink all-in would've killed me, so I made lots of spines. It wasn't immediately clear what he was doing, and he could've been doing either of those based on what I scouted.
3 gate expand means less units overall. If you put down a spore and a spine and made a few roaches then you would have been able to produce enough roaches and lings in response to a 3 gate pressure expand.
On November 13 2011 15:26 Belial88 wrote:
Can't take a third without overseer against DTs. I saw the Dts and so stuck to 2 base. I got my third quite quickly as fast as I could. I may have tried to pressure first.
There are various ways to react to 1 base DTs and getting a lair on 2 base for overseers is one reaction, but not the best one. I would have recommended just trying to expand and cancelling it if you can't hold it. 1 base DT tech puts Protoss far behind, so you wouldn't have to worry about his army at all. If your third comes under fire on that map, you are able to move a spore crawler over on the creep to cover the entrance to the third. That map makes it super easy to take a third if you've already secured your second.
On November 13 2011 15:26 Belial88 wrote:
I didn't blindly go roach/baneling drop. My composition of choice in a ZvP where it's even bases (ie not fast third vs ffe) is ling/baneling rain. I went with roaches instead due to archons.
So you think the drop tech wasn't worth it? I should just mass pure roach next time? I went with speedbanes once I saw no sentries.
If you have a chance to scout archons, then don't bother with the baneling nest and use your lings to try to deny a third and threaten backstabs. You might have already been committed in this game though. In this case, I would have forgone the drops (especially because of phoenix) and just tried to expand more. I personally don't think speedbanes are useful against protoss because banelings are only really useful against P when they're dropped. You were able to get a lot of the zealots with the blings, but roaches would have done that too. Save the gas for more roaches, upgrades and infestors.
On November 13 2011 15:26 Belial88 wrote:
4 spores because of the phoenixes, 3 evo chambers for upgrades. I thought 3 evo would be good with what I was doing.
2 spores per location max against phoenixes, but you can probably get away with one right in your mineral line. I'm less concerned about the 3 evo chamber thing, you weren't using them though. You had staggered upgrades and didn't advance to hive quickly enough to bother with 3 evo. I don't think anyone does 3 evo, and it's for good reasons but if it's your style that's fine. I think the lings were immediately useless when you say zealot/archon so don't bother with melee upgrades.
On November 13 2011 15:26 Belial88 wrote:
I think i was quite ahead in econ, no? I don't think my macro decision were poor, he had Dts, can't take a third without spores. I didn't blindly choose tech, ling/bane is what I consider standard, and I went with roaches as a reaction to what he was doing.
So next time I see archons like this, just go pure roach, eventually infestors?
No you weren't ahead in econ. You let him crush your economy because you were afraid of his DT harass which you had already prepared for. As soon as you saw the DTs, expand. He took his natural right then and then took his third about 20 seconds after you did while you were on even harvesters, which is not a position you want to be in as zerg. He took his fourth much before you did and he had more harvester than you for most of the game. You had spores before the DTs came, so expand.
If ling/bling is your standard, then you need to think what DT tech means to your style. It means that he's invested in tier 3 which failed and is now only good for archons or transitioning into tier 2. It also means no sentries because of the gas cost of DTs. I would probably just go roach as soon as you see 1 base twilight because roaches help against blink stalkers as well. If you don't react quickly enough, then just put down the roach warren and ignore the baneling tech because they don't do well if they're not dropped and archons can handle them either way.
So next time you see DTs, put down a roach warren. Next time you see a style like his, you can make your 4 base game plan to tech up to infestors. In this game in particular, if you had made a lot of roaches and gotten tunneling claws you could have won instantly because he didn't have detection until after you revealed burrowed. The robo finishes after 15 minutes and he didn't make cannons.
On November 13 2011 15:26 Belial88 wrote:
Watch the game then. Archons much easier to get out then broodlords or infestors. It's not like he pushed when he was maxed, I reckon he was around 140.
Right, but you threw away a couple armies before then as well. You definitely had enough gas for infestors, watch the game again because you took all your gases on 2 base (before the DTs came) which is probably overkill for your style. You could have easily afforded infestors around the 11 minute mark, at the 14 minute mark you float a lot of gas and you would have had more gas if you didn't make corruptors (if you decided on infestor tech). You don't need a whole bunch more gas to get broodlords considering you made about 20 corruptors this game.
The push that won the game was over 180 supply and had 11 archons in it. In that push, the archons alone cost 2750 gas which is more than enough to complete the tech to broods. You engaged while you were both maxed, which is rough for zerg. The engage happened at your bases, you only had 42 roaches and everything else died instantly (ignore corruptors and phoenix because they don't matter) to 11 archons, 4 immortals and 10 stalkers. I don't think this is a fault of your composition at this point as much as it was that you lost this game by not expanding and picking poor engagements.
On November 13 2011 15:26 Belial88 wrote:
Hm okay. I thought infestors wouldn't have cut it against the phoenix and would take too much gas. But okay, I see how I made too many corruptors. I just won't make corruptors next time.
Yeah, it's tricky. You have to fungal the phoenix before they engage otherwise you don't get spells. Your best bet would have been to catch them on the map so you could take them out separate of the army.
On November 13 2011 15:26 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +
Don't lie about your skill level, 1k masters this season is essentially GM level.
Thanks for the insightful post. I'll be sure to edit the OP to please you. I was 1k masters last season.
Aw, that guy sucks. You'll always be a 1k masters in my heart ♥
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While everyone will tell you that you had poor macro and couldn't deny his third, the problem of late game against toss is always difficult to answer if you let it get there. The only thing I've seen work against mass archon is mass neural parasite with BL support. Generally BL/Infestor is the safest composition than can handle most other unit compositions, which is why it's often the end game goal for zerg.
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On November 13 2011 16:52 oOOoOphidian wrote:
While everyone will tell you that you had poor macro and couldn't deny his third, the problem of late game against toss is always difficult to answer if you let it get there. The only thing I've seen work against mass archon is mass neural parasite with BL support. Generally BL/Infestor is the safest composition than can handle most other unit compositions, which is why it's often the end game goal for zerg.
This post is completely irrelevant to the subject at hand.
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How to beat mass archon? Mass hydra beats mass archon.
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Monk's post is very informative and very accurate.
I don't know if maybe you're looking for a more specific answer in regards to EXACTLY what units you could have made in your exact game without changing your macro choices, but;
against protoss, sometimes the problem really is just being enough ahead in macro to power through a more cost-efficient army than yours with greater numbers.
or
going for busts at a time when you KNOW protoss will not be able to handle it.
It really is how the matchup has evolved, and holds true all the way up till the very lategame where zerg gets a very gas-heavy army.
There is a chance you couldn't have made any composition to deal with what your opponent did without changing some of your macro/strategic choices such as the three evolution chambers, extra spores and spines, etc.
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EPT
