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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Today I have played three games against this strategy. All three games were a loss. Here is the prototypical scenario:
- Zerg gets around 160 supply with roaches
- Adds baneling nest and maxes on roach/bling (+ infestor/muta/hydra/lings sometimes)
- I engage the Zerg with my mostly stalker composition (since he makes roaches)
- Banerain wipes out everything making it 160/200 for the zerg and 110~/200 for me
- Zerg gets to 200/200 quickly and is able to stockpile resources, and eventually win the game
This late midgame baneling switch is seriously driving me crazy, I can't think of the proper way to counter this. Perhaps my unit composition is completely off? Perhaps I'm not as equal/ahead I think I am? I don't know, but here are three replays and maybe a second opinion will enlighten me.
Game 1: vs aTMojar http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/sc2_reps/plexa_vs_mojar_bane.sc2replay
Okay the zealots put me behind a bit and he could have come a lot sooner with more stuff and killed me. But that didn't happen. Nevertheless after the initial aggression the game was quite passive. My 4th was slow-ish compared to his 4th/5th but I was being cautious (maybe I shouldn't have been?). Nevertheless, when we engaged I was 180 he was 200 and he wiped me out completely. The blink forward was bad, but I was hoping to snag a few of his infestors and didn't anticipate that he can banelings =/. The rest of the game is a slow struggle towards death since after that I am lightyears behind.
Game 2: vs Odal http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/sc2_reps/Plexa_vs_Odal_bane.sc2replay
This game I enter the midgame behind after my zealots do nothing. As a result I'm trailing most of the game. But after I kill his first max and he remaxes with banes I feel like the fight is incredibly one sided, whereas if he had not built banes then the fight would have been more even. This game I don't mind losing to banerain as I was behind, with that said it still looked absurdly powerful against what I was doing.
Game 3: vs whiteout http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/sc2_reps/Plexa_vs_white_bane.sc2replay
Kinda weird opening since he took gold first, nevertheless I eventually kill it with a VR/Zeal/sentry push. After that point I things are at worst even between us. Game progresses and there are small jabs from each side, none of which causes either side to get a significant advantage. My armour upgrades were a little slow, but I don't think that was a major factor. Then he attacks my fourth with roaches + banerain and wipes out everything. From there, it is once again a slow struggle.
My openings are not so good, mostly because I'm trying to get a nice fe 2gate suited for me. But I don't think any of the games are lost because of that. Perhaps I'm wrong, and my opening is making me fall behind more than I should. My standard unit composition is Stalker/Immortal/Templar/Sentry sometimes with zealots.
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moar air units, less stalkers try kiwikakis 2gate into 2 stargate
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
There is no way you watched a single replay, nor does it answer the question in any way shape or form
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I like going blink if they look to be doing a 2base play after i FE, (ive noticed on ladder lately a lot more zergs doing 2 base roach hydra all ins for some reason) where i'll go to ~6gateways TC and a forge.
You have to keep in mind stalkers are only really better than roaches if they have blink, otherwise roaches are 75-25 stalkers which you wont beat on a cost effectiveness basis.
If they go into a fast 3rd which is a more standard response with a roach warren ive been finding going air really effective, making 1-2 void rays and then 5-8phoenix.
In dealing with the bane rain, being able to blink back and a-move-a-move in retreat will let you snipe some of the overlords/banelings dropping out without taking too much damage, alternatively if you get air you take complete map control and deny that scenario from occurring.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Okay I don't think you have watched any of the replays either.
G1 I blinked in, got fungaled, then banelings dropped on me.
G2 I blunk backwards but the banes still did damage
G3 I blunk backwards but I don't have a lot of room because he was offensively dropping my 4th.
Blinking back is still going to mean you're going to lose all your tech units (sentries, templar, immortals, colossus) so I don't really think that is a solution. Stalkers are weak as shit, saving them won't save the game since all my gas units have been blown up.
Regarding heavy air; that's a stylistic thing. I don't think mass air is viable vs Zerg. I think it puts you far too far behind and if they go Hydra (like in G3) it's instant loss. Moreover, if they eventually get hydra that forces Colossus and a standard ground army and once again, late game banerain becomes an issue.
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I probably should have also mentioned, if he goes hatch first, his speed will be late, and you can keep your first scouting probe alive and moving around the map. When your at ~40-45food you want to check his third, if its not there go into blink, if it is go air
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 31 2011 19:20 tsango wrote:
I probably should have also mentioned, if he goes hatch first, his speed will be late, and you can keep your first scouting probe alive and moving around the map. When your at ~40-45food you want to check his third, if its not there go into blink, if it is go air
wtf every replay was pool first, and I pylon natural every game. I get that you're trying to help but you can't help without watching any of the replays. I should really warn you =/
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havnet watched the replays, dont have time atm. but ill try help out anyway. I used to really love going roach or ling + banedrops, however a protoss with good stalker micro usually completely decimates it. you lay down forcefields to block out the roaches, and if he doesnt pull his overlords back you snipe them and try save your sentries from the few banes that will drop out. If he pulls back you try to snipe 1-2 overlords and just repeat. When finally your forced to engagem it's pretty much like marine splitting, you grab a handful of stalkers and blink them to the right, blink some to left etc. with a good split the banedrop will become rather useless. Since i havent watched the replay i dont know if you added in collosi, but to deal with the roaches after the drops are done id really recommend collosi - else the roaches might just clean up your stalkers on their own. Hope that helped out a bit
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i watched game 1, you should never be tempted to blink so aggressively onto infestors, especially when theres that many with energy, you will never get them all before being fungaled and donated - that was pretty much what happened, the forcefields were decent but not quite enough, past that point your army count got reset too hard that you couldnt pressure him and he proceeded to take the entire map.
Your warp prism was decent, against someone without a spire its best kept in the air floating behind their bases on metal because they'll know its there but theres nothing they can do about it
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You really need forcefields and blink micro to deal with banes. They are unstoppable, but they are negated through walls since they are melee (forcefields) and if they are through overlords, well then blink is the best solution but even then its tough man
and i didnt know mods played the game.......scary
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Wow, this thread is full of exactly what your post detailing strat forum responses demands not be in a response.
Watching the replays now. But really guys check out this thread and note the author. It's like you're trolling and do not even realize it.
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This sounds...Delicious :D
I've been looking for something to revitalize my zvp lately and this sound very nice. I'll check the replays tonight. I'm not sure I was the intended audience but thanks :D
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How about not blinking straight back which balls your units up. Instead blink micro your stalkers into small groups to help to negate splash?
I've also seen HasuObs run backwards and chain storm the approaching banefilled ovies.
Just theorycraft but I assume splitting is as important in PvZ as TvZ =)
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 31 2011 19:26 tsango wrote:
i watched game 1, you should never be tempted to blink so aggressively onto infestors, especially when theres that many with energy, you will never get them all before being fungaled and donated - that was pretty much what happened, the forcefields were decent but not quite enough, past that point your army count got reset too hard that you couldnt pressure him and he proceeded to take the entire map. I think trying to snipe infestors is generally worth the gamble, particularly since neither of our armies were in good positions. Even if stalkers get fungaled being able to kill off a few infestors seems like a decent trade. Happy to hear some other opinions on this though.
I realise that after the army count got reset game was over, the point of the thread was how do i make it so that my army count isn't reset so heavily.
On October 31 2011 19:31 frantic.cactus wrote:
How about not blinking straight back which balls your units up. Instead blink micro your stalkers into small groups to help to negate splash?
I've also seen HasuObs run backwards and chain storm the approaching banefilled ovies.
Just theorycraft but I assume splitting is as important in PvZ as TvZ =)
You can blink a long distance away and that stops them balling too. I don't think that is the answer though, it would help forsure. The run backwards storm/blink snipe works to a point, typically useful vs the ling/bling strategies that morrow uses but vs roahces into late game switch.. I don't think its as effective since storm doesn't clean up roaches and without stalkers roaches can overpower things, unlike lings which you hope to kill with archon/storm.
On October 31 2011 19:26 RuneZerg wrote:
havnet watched the replays, dont have time atm. but ill try help out anyway. I used to really love going roach or ling + banedrops, however a protoss with good stalker micro usually completely decimates it. you lay down forcefields to block out the roaches, and if he doesnt pull his overlords back you snipe them and try save your sentries from the few banes that will drop out. If he pulls back you try to snipe 1-2 overlords and just repeat. When finally your forced to engagem it's pretty much like marine splitting, you grab a handful of stalkers and blink them to the right, blink some to left etc. with a good split the banedrop will become rather useless. Since i havent watched the replay i dont know if you added in collosi, but to deal with the roaches after the drops are done id really recommend collosi - else the roaches might just clean up your stalkers on their own. Hope that helped out a bit
I think this is good advice in general, but I don't know if it's applicable in this case. Mostly because sentries are usually few and far between in the late midgame and often you'll get engaged in areas which you can FF off and do as you say. I think the only game which this mightve help is G1 but even then it's a bit debatable. Happy to hear more arguments in support of this though.
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You have a gas in you main with 2500 on it at the 20minute mark ^.^, also that blink was what seemed to be your undoing in the first game, maybe just try blinking 5 or 6. Will update when i finish ^.^
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 31 2011 19:38 MagickMan wrote:
You have a gas in you main with 2500 on it at the 20minute mark ^.^, also that blink was what seemed to be your undoing in the first game, maybe just try blinking 5 or 6. Will update when i finish ^.^ Yeah... that was bad (they 2500 gas) :p I definitely didn't expect to see banes when blinking forward though T_T
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had a chance to watch g2, you had no sentries when you engaged and your army was a lot smaller than his, imo a very strange time to move out. I prolly wouldnt go stargate after a failed 2 gate pressure build, you know he's at lair and has his 3rd build already.
In the last engagement i dont think any amount of micro could've saved you - he was just too far ahead by then
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 31 2011 19:47 RuneZerg wrote:
In the last engagement i dont think any amount of micro could've saved you - he was just too far ahead by then
I accept that he had the game won. But with that said I dont think I was as cost effective as I should have been in the deciding engagement. Agree/disagree?
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On all 3 games It seemed that you were just trying to force your way in instead of taking your time or when defending having a proper concave set up.
There's also some major macro slip ups that are contributing to making this look more powerful than it actually is.
To be a little more specific.
G1 = you though he's infestors were vulnerable and went for it. Your ambush backfired and lost your whole army on top of being severely behind from that zealot push that honestly did nothing and opened you up for a counter attack that took the fear away from zerg.
G2 = Once again you have no information of whats ahead, you go straight in for the kill without looking around and poking to measure his army.
G3 = no clear concave to defend, and at that point you really needed some colossus either way.
Basically I would recommend you get some phoenix or hallucination to keep yourself informed on where his army is at all times while attacking to get into a position that can threaten him just by being there. If he's not patient you'll crush him and if he is just take your time and play like terran mech user.
cheers
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Thank you for the excellent post Doko  one question though, upon seeing the banes being loaded up should I change my unit composition? Or is it more important to take it slow and play like RuneZerg suggests.
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EPT
