EPT1) Is a hatch first able to hold against a 10 pool opener, particularly when you bring drones/lay spines?
2) Against a gas/pool, what would be a solid follow-up to lead into the midgame?
Any discussion and replays will be appreciated ^^
[Q][D] ZvZ 10 Pool
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CrueltY
Guernsey37 Posts
1) Is a hatch first able to hold against a 10 pool opener, particularly when you bring drones/lay spines? 2) Against a gas/pool, what would be a solid follow-up to lead into the midgame? Any discussion and replays will be appreciated ^^ | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
2) Get as many drones as you can, get 2 queens and block your ramp while catching up in drones, try playing standard after that. You will be a bit behind though if your opponent reacts optimally. | ||
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ePdeLay
Australia220 Posts
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DesolateDrone
United States16 Posts
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jtixs
United Kingdom150 Posts
I usually go 14/14 gas pool. if they do early hatch you will have an earlier zergling speed which is key in this matchup. Also this build holds against all early pool builds. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
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tokinho
United States792 Posts
http://blip.tv/learn-from-the-pros-with-mr-b/zvz-with-ret-4606171 Its rets explanation of zvz to mr bitter. 1)No way to hold a hatch first if they 10 pool and scout your position except on like 2-3 maps. Strats' vid about defending an early pool- you can stop first rush keeping about 3-7 drones. .but you are dead after that. The standard build is 14 gas 14 pool. I prefer 13 pool 15 gas, just cause so many people 7 pool zvz in platinum and diamond. Any rush builds beat hatch first. I think that 8 pool is the strongest aggressive zerg opener, if you know where to spawn.. You drone to 10 drop two extractors, and use three larvae for lings. and ovie on 10. you only need 11 drones to completely support lings with a queen so if you get to 12 leave on for an extractor keep 3 on gas to 100 and only build lings. you are building lings non-stop off of one base. 2) The next strongest opener is the baneling opener. You need 15 drones 3 on gas to support 50/50 ling baneling production off of one base. So the next best thing is to get lings to 15-22 drop the second hatch. drone to 18 drones and go straight lings. if you get only 4 more drones you have 22 which is straight lings after that. Watch sen and notice the he follows this pattern most of his games. The third strongest opener is the roach opener. For that I like to drone to 11 drop spawning pool, gas on 14. 18 drop roach warren. this opener requires that you get 7 roaches and lings before taking expansion to prevent from getting runbys. The best is to actually send your overloard and watch what they do. Generally you can pool 2 food after them as long as you get your extractor the same time as they do and get ahead. Idra talks about zvz as the battle of getting ahead on drones. (nerdstomper.com) To win midgame, ZvZ you have to control the map. ( you want to attack when you send out roaches about halfway building your lings and they will get to their base) you drone one set of drones behind it and don't lose 1/2 your units return them and since your droned, you will be ahead. Don Rae Gu is known for this style of ZvZ. Most of the time zerg like to base their attack off of upgrade timings so if you can guess what that is you can actually drone earlier then build straightt roaches to beat them on the timing instead of ubilding units. You have to keep track of your drone numbers to know how many hatcheries to build. 14 drones +3 gas is straight roaches. Late game zerg, infestors are the best unit. If they go lings, banes, or hydras, infestors can control the game. The best counter to roach hydra is ling roach infestors, but you have to get your lings in the back to hit the hydras and fungal the roaches. Alternatively, if you see them go mutas, you can expand hard and try to beat them on mutas or go hydra infestor.. but its a gamble. I have a replay of the mass expand strategy. http://www.twitch.tv/ztokdo/b/296696758 I was behind this game, but I expand and get more gases so that I can get more mutas as I noticed he was going muta. This video is great about the midgame done by rootCatz- http://www.youtube.com/nsvault#p/search/2/jnwkOtkSidU Day9 analysis of sen's zvz- I hope that this helps. I'm not pro, and I cannot find the idra nerdstomper video.. so i'll see what I can find about econ in this match. Tok. 272 P.S. there is about a 60 supply point build that if they don't build almost the exact build that you did, you can run them over before they get any attack upgrades so its the best point to shoot for in zvz, if you aren't fighting enough. oyu need to get about 28 drones and the rest is units. It is the optimal build that sen and idra both use all of the time. They move out at about 48 with roaches and reinforce with lings and a few banelings. ![[image loading]](http://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/jtv_user_pictures/ztokdo-channel_header_image-49dd514fef909a61-640x125.jpeg) | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On October 17 2011 20:26 CrueltY wrote: I have recently been experimenting with builds outside of a hatch first, which is my current staple build in ZvZ. My goal has been to exploit people that blind hatch first on maps such as Xel'Naga Caverns or close positions Shattered Temple. I have been experimenting with early pools, and had a couple of questions about a 10 pool specifically I would like help with: 1) Is a hatch first able to hold against a 10 pool opener, particularly when you bring drones/lay spines? 2) Against a gas/pool, what would be a solid follow-up to lead into the midgame? Any discussion and replays will be appreciated ^^ 10 pool with drone all-in is a build order win to 15 hatch. You don't really need a spine but you can Leave 2 drones mining and send the rest if you scout a 15hatch. Against a gas/pool like 14/14 you will be behind if he plays well. I've tested it a bunch because I've really wanted to make the eco 10pool I've been seeing in GSL to be some magic win build in zvz, but against 14/14 it just isn't. 10 pool gives you a nice advantage if you do a delayed double extractor trick, but you lose it if you have to get a competitive gas (and drone scout vs 14/14 not drone scouting).... There are some links to videos of 10 pool vs 15h and 14/14 in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=264988 | ||
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