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Aotearoa39261 Posts
In light of recent threads, the secret that Motherships are good PvZ is quickly being realised by people. Not only is it good, but it is versatile offensively and defensively. In many ways, what I've worked out here is similar to the realisations that have been made over in HUARGH's build. Both appreciate that Motherships are incredibly powerful, and it is safe to tech to Mothership after having a Stargate scout the Zerg. These realisations have led us toward different conclusions - for him it allows him to take a very easy third base. For me, it allows me to crush the third base of Zerg while expanding myself.
The Backstory
Fast expand and its variants have started to come under some scrutiny with the success of stargate play twindling. Zergs have learned how to fend off the 6gate blink stalker timing as well as the VR-Stargate units type builds while powering economy and ending up way ahead. I personally preferred the 6gate after expanding, but ling heavy play started to dominate me.
My PvZ knowledge from way back told me that either I needed to kill that third base/kill a lot of drones or I needed to expand very quickly so that I wouldn't fall behind in economy. However taking a very fast third isn't always an option and in my opinion leaves the protoss very vulnerable as adding an expansion after scouting with VR/Phoenix, I believe it is too late. My prior knowledge also taught me that adding a Mothership to your army instantly bulks it up.
So hence the Mothership/6gate came into existence.
The Plan
The plan is simple. Try to get away with building the least defence possible while teching to mothership (with blink as the beacon is building). We do this by using zealots to scout pre-stargate, then using a VR to scout once the stargate is done. Once the Mothership is in construction we build nothing but stalkers. Then we hit the Zerg third with Stalker/Mothership (and sentries, if you can manage  ) and aim to kill it or severely damage the Zerg. At the same time we expand ourselves giving us a economic edge.
The Build (a skeleton)
- Open with your favourite FE build.
- Once your first gateway is done build a zealot and use it to scout the Zerg (important so you don't die to dumb all ins)
- Otherwise, continue as normal until you add a Stargate (you'll probably end up making 3-4 sentries, thats not a problem.)
- After Stargate add 3 gates (total=4) and take all 4 gases if you haven't already
- Next up you want a VR and a Twilight Council.
- Scout with the VR (kill overlords near base!) and begin Fleet Beacon in a hidden place
- Add 2 more gates and start blink (if you want to chrono it make sure you have enough chrono left for Mothership)
- Once Beacon is done, begin Mothership and Chrono her out asap
- Build nonstop Stalkers from now on, if you can get a proxy pylon near the third this will help the attack
- Once Mothership is done, send her + Stalkers + Sentries + VR (it shouldn't die!) to attack the third (tip: hotkey mothership outside the rest of the units)
- At the same time expand to your third
A more refined build than this isn't possible at this stage. This is because I haven't had time to refine it properly and Zergs keep doing different things on the ladder However, with no pressure I have been able to be attacking the Zerg third at 12:30. This does mean that the attack needs to do damage if you want to even things up again. However, you should be able to do that damage 9 times out of 10.
Why this works
First of all, this should look like a normal FFE-Stargate build and ideally you will be able to deny scouting and keep the beacon hidden for long enough to make this so. This means the Zerg should go into anti-FFE-Stargate mode straight away. This is fast third, spores, and lots of drones. The extra power added to the push by the Mothership means if he drones to hard, he dies instantly. The Vortex that you should accumulate by the time the Mothership reaches the third of the Zerg is insanely good at splitting whatever force the zerg has into two bits - think of it like a mega-forcefield - which means that your stalkers can actually kill things.
When you scout things like no third and whatnot, you can still get a Mothership (there isn't anything wrong with it) but you should be aware that he is going to cheese you some how (or is playing 2base infestor). My solution is cannons in lieu of stalkers to bulk up your front - and any appropriate unit to deal with the situation from the 4gates you should have (minimum). e.g. zealots vs 2 base infestor, VR vs roach all in, sentry vs baneling bust etc. You can even do what HUARGH does instead of this timing attack.
Once the attack is over, the Mothership can defend superbly (particularly on Antiga as exhibited vs Urbanizer - see reps at end). This means your 3rd base should 100% go up and any pressure the Zerg tries to put back on you should be easily neutralised.
What beats this
Two things
- Scouting it and preparing accordingly (see rep vs Baxter)
- Blind hydra/corruptor (see rep vs comogury)
I would classify the former as a soft counter, and the latter as a hard counter.
Replays!!!!
Here is a pack of 8 games using this build on the ladder. It features this build against a vairety of builds including
- a 6 pool
- mutaling
- roach play
- some infestor builds
If you want to complain about the quality of opponent, okay, but I suggest you try the build before you bash
Rep pack
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awesome dude, I'm loving this Mothership play thats becoming popular all of a sudden.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 03 2011 02:36 awesomoecalypse wrote:
awesome dude, I'm loving this Mothership play thats becoming popular all of a sudden.
Most of this was done pre-patch. There was a simple trick to making motherships less bad when they had poor acceleration. That was to keep motherships hotkeyed separately, and after moving everything to a location you make the mothership patrol so it never decelerates. Not so useful post-patch though 
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The third timing seems a little late for my taste, but that's more and more just PvZ nowadays. Checking reps now, thanks Plexa.
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Omg another mothership build thread!!! thank you Plexa <3
About the patrolling, lol didn't think of that.
This will be real cool if GSL players start doing it, because then all three protoss tech trees will be "viable" (instead of having to get HT or Colossi you could get Mother)
Nice picture, makes the thread look attractive :D
Then again, if you could keep patrolling it before patch to keep it fast, then I wonder why we haven't seen this in top level tournaments beforehand.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 03 2011 02:44 CaptainHaz wrote:
The third timing seems a little late for my taste, but that's more and more just PvZ nowadays. Checking reps now, thanks Plexa.
I agree. By doing this you are banking on hurting his economy to make up for the late third. It's no different than a blink stalker timing... except a few minutes later
On October 03 2011 02:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
This will be real cool if GSL players start doing it, because then all three protoss tech trees will be "viable" (instead of having to get HT or Colossi you could get Mother) Motherships have always been good PvZ. I mentioned this when describing the optimal lategame scenario for protoss (I think that was pre-deathball craze too). Kiwikaki has demonstrated time and time again that Motherships are effective units as well. With that said, Motherships make Protoss armies anywhere from 1.5 to 2 times stronger than they would otherwise be - colossus + mship // ht + mship is way better than gateway units + mship
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i love you plexa
i will be using this
<3
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This seems just straight up beastly while not being overly complex or difficult to execute. Cant wait to check out the reps!
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Linked this topic in my topic <3
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This is pretty cool, it reminds me of Kiwi vs Machine(?) where he expanded to a 3rd and kill every single hatchery with blink stalkers before doing a sweet recall.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 03 2011 03:02 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 02:35 Plexa wrote:On October 03 2011 02:32 TheAntZ wrote:On October 03 2011 02:18 Plexa wrote:Heh I realised the same things you have about motherships but I came to very different conclusions. Could you elaborate a bit please? What conclusions did you draw? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=271279tldr; we both had playstyles we wanted to use but the current metagame didn't allow for. Solution? Mothership! But will it blend be ever viable against Terran? Mothership, outside of Mothership/4gate, won't be viable against Terran. The mobility of Terran and the strength of their units makes using it impossible.. plus vikings and ghosts. Yuk. This build (vs zerg) is heavily metagame dependent as random all ins at dumb timings can crush this if you miss it.
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Instead of sending your whole army together in one giant allin-ish attack, why not try a style where you sneak some stalkers (control towers and path with void) blink in and snipe third, then recall out a-la Kiwikaki style?
Seems much more fun and safer imo
you can even bring the void with you for added dps, then you can leave the MS over your third to prepare for the inevitable counter attack where you should have cannon defense up and ready with your blink/sentry/MS combo
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I see it as more of a proof of concept that Mothership supported 3rd bases like this and HUARGH's strategy is quite viable though it may not be 100% stable yet. It definitely makes you wonder how far you can take fast motherships.
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I haven't had the chance to look over any of the replays yet, but I assume this is inteded to hit with at least +1 weapons?
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Ahh, the irony of the game vs. Odal xD
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On October 03 2011 03:43 Shintuku wrote:
Ahh, the irony of the game vs. Odal xD
i nearly choked laughing at that one
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 03 2011 03:25 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
Instead of sending your whole army together in one giant allin-ish attack, why not try a style where you sneak some stalkers (control towers and path with void) blink in and snipe third, then recall out a-la Kiwikaki style?
Seems much more fun and safer imo
you can even bring the void with you for added dps, then you can leave the MS over your third to prepare for the inevitable counter attack where you should have cannon defense up and ready with your blink/sentry/MS combo I tried that a long time ago vs energizer. Basically, you don't get any net advantage by doing that. Yeah, you save a few units - but its really just a really late blink stalker push with a gimmick.
On October 03 2011 03:35 feebas wrote:
I haven't had the chance to look over any of the replays yet, but I assume this is inteded to hit with at least +1 weapons? Generally, although I forget the timing.
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Wow this is just crazy. Mind = blown....
Gonna go try it out myself :D
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PvZ is getting closer and closer to Carriers, it better happen. Do you think it's viable after you take your 3rd?
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EPT![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/mothership6gate/mothership.jpg)
