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On September 13 2011 03:23 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 01:55 Fig wrote:On September 12 2011 19:16 Claudia_Kitty wrote:
I dont understand why they buffed observer 100 to 75 gas , now overseer 100 to 50 gas why doesnt they buff raven the mobile detection from terran cost 200 gas yeah i know it has abilities that by the way are horrible in timmings, you can give the EB upgrades and the starports upgrades to the raven and even then when raven spawns cant use seeker misile, also is verry slow and big so it can be targeted verry easily... plz plz dont tell me that you can just scan that messes up the economy of the terran i dont need to explain that , the slower race making workers mathematics etc.... i would like a raven with no abilities but cheaper and faster i hope this make sense to smart and analitic people .... have a good day Terrans have the most ways to detect of any of the races. Blizzard is trying to make it more fair for the other races. Scans (mobile) Ghosts (mobile) buffed Ravens (mobile) buffed Turrets (stationary) Zerg has 3. Overseer (mobile) buffed Infestor (mobile) buffed/nerfed Spore crawler (can be re-positioned) buffed Protoss has 2. Observer (mobile) buffed Cannon (stationary) Lol. Mid game T has the worst detection. Im pretty sure you wont argue that? Observers just kick ass. Invisible detection ftw and overseers are semi-free from 1.4 The main reason T need detection is for DTs. Turrets at 3rd+ non PF bases are kinda useless. Cannon >>>> Turret as they can, you know, shoot DTs. This isnt a balance whine at all. Scans rock but are expensive. However saying T has unfair detection is flat out silly. And ravens lol. They are so bad apart from for timing pushes. They cost soooo much and take a year to build. Pretty much T obviously has the worst mobile detection. And its the only one not getting buffed. However with the infester mega nerf, i have no issues  O yea ghosts detection. have fun with that. Its rare that it works effectively and efficiently. Its better to target your own units with hellions and kill DTs with splash lol
Lol worst mid game detection? Expensive? Are you kidding me?
Scan is not expensive. And dont give me that talking point "MULES cost 270 minerals". They dont. They only mine those minerals faster. If you dont call a MULE those minerals will still come in later.
Protoss and Zerg detection costs 50/75 and 150/50 (overseers cost an extra 100 for the overlord). They also take up production time, meaning its not on demand (like scan) and it takes up production lines that could be used for other units. They can also be killed.
Terran has the best mid game detection in my opinion
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I'm sorry but a 20% boost to production speed of Ultras is a massive boost.
A massive 40.6 dps v armored w. 13.4 dps splash rad of 1 and can be out on the field in 110s (65 + 55 per unit) and 6 armor with continual upgrades.
I think that's a pretty fair trade off. As one can over produce Ultras, this encourages mixed comps.
EDIT: With this change, it is now possible to continually stream in 4-6 ultras without pause and other units (lings/mutas/etc), assuming 5-6 saturated base scenario.
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On September 13 2011 03:23 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 01:55 Fig wrote:On September 12 2011 19:16 Claudia_Kitty wrote:
I dont understand why they buffed observer 100 to 75 gas , now overseer 100 to 50 gas why doesnt they buff raven the mobile detection from terran cost 200 gas yeah i know it has abilities that by the way are horrible in timmings, you can give the EB upgrades and the starports upgrades to the raven and even then when raven spawns cant use seeker misile, also is verry slow and big so it can be targeted verry easily... plz plz dont tell me that you can just scan that messes up the economy of the terran i dont need to explain that , the slower race making workers mathematics etc.... i would like a raven with no abilities but cheaper and faster i hope this make sense to smart and analitic people .... have a good day Terrans have the most ways to detect of any of the races. Blizzard is trying to make it more fair for the other races. Scans (mobile) Ghosts (mobile) buffed Ravens (mobile) buffed Turrets (stationary) Zerg has 3. Overseer (mobile) buffed Infestor (mobile) buffed/nerfed Spore crawler (can be re-positioned) buffed Protoss has 2. Observer (mobile) buffed Cannon (stationary) Lol. Mid game T has the worst detection. Im pretty sure you wont argue that? Observers just kick ass. Invisible detection ftw and overseers are semi-free from 1.4 The main reason T need detection is for DTs. Turrets at 3rd+ non PF bases are kinda useless. Cannon >>>> Turret as they can, you know, shoot DTs. This isnt a balance whine at all. Scans rock but are expensive. However saying T has unfair detection is flat out silly. And ravens lol. They are so bad apart from for timing pushes. They cost soooo much and take a year to build. Pretty much T obviously has the worst mobile detection. And its the only one not getting buffed. However with the infester mega nerf, i have no issues O yea ghosts detection. have fun with that. Its rare that it works effectively and efficiently. Its better to target your own units with hellions and kill DTs with splash lol
Terrans must be terribly spoiled with all of their good units. Any zerg or protoss player would love to be able to make ravens.
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Scans rock but are expensive
We're talking about a on-demand reveal-detector that is the only one to be
- Impossible to deny
- Gaz free
Saying T have "The worst mobile detection" is very wrong
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I'm sorry but a 20% boost to production speed of Ultras is a massive boost.
A massive 40.6 dps v armored w. 13.4 dps splash rad of 1 and can be out on the field in 110s (65 + 55 per unit) and 6 armor with continual upgrades.
I think that's a pretty fair trade off. As one can over produce Ultras, this encourages mixed comps.
EDIT: With this change, it is now possible to continually stream in 4-6 ultras without pause and other units (lings/mutas/etc), assuming 5-6 saturated base scenario.
There's also hive, so it's actually 100+110=210 seconds. Pretty long time, that's more than a mothership. They are also extremely expensive. All this buff does is make ultras more viable in endgame, it doesn't do anything to address Protoss deathballs, as they will still be made before Zerg can get ultras out.
I actually made a guide advocating ultras against deathballs, and a big part of that was that you can never afford it and get them out in time. If Ultra gas cost is reduced, then maybe, but all this does is make it so it's possible to make ultras in end game as a remax option, not necessarily make an army of them. You still need to hold an initial army with lair tech.
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On September 13 2011 13:16 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +I'm sorry but a 20% boost to production speed of Ultras is a massive boost.
A massive 40.6 dps v armored w. 13.4 dps splash rad of 1 and can be out on the field in 110s (65 + 55 per unit) and 6 armor with continual upgrades.
I think that's a pretty fair trade off. As one can over produce Ultras, this encourages mixed comps.
EDIT: With this change, it is now possible to continually stream in 4-6 ultras without pause and other units (lings/mutas/etc), assuming 5-6 saturated base scenario. There's also hive, so it's actually 100+110=210 seconds. Pretty long time, that's more than a mothership. They are also extremely expensive. All this buff does is make ultras more viable in endgame, it doesn't do anything to address Protoss deathballs, as they will still be made before Zerg can get ultras out.
Well, taking into account the Fleet beacon build time of 60, that works out to the same, 60s (FB) + 160s (Mothership) = 220s.
IANAZ, but given the changes, Blizzard DOES want to see more ultralisk play (after they nerf'd it to hell). We'll see then.
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On September 13 2011 10:51 Supamang wrote:
Scan is not expensive. And dont give me that talking point "MULES cost 270 minerals". They dont. They only mine those minerals faster. If you dont call a MULE those minerals will still come in later.
Why bother to make extra workers then? One worker should suffice, you'll get all those minerals eventually anyway, right?
The whole set of "XXX costs YYY minerals" statements are underspecified; they don't take into account the time value of money (minerals/gas in this case). 270 minerals now is worth more than 270 minerals 15 minutes from now. A lot more.
If you didn't take things like that into account, zerg buildings cost tons of minerals due to opportunity cost of the drone. Then again, that cost is paid for by 1 larva and 50 mins. So 1 larva + 50 mins = tons and tons of minerals, right? Sounds silly. But it's true, because those minerals are taken over a long period of time.
Analogously, terran can either say that a scan costs 270 minerals (over the lifetime of a MULE), which it does given fixed number of orbital commands, OR a scan every (recharge rate of 50 energy) costs 400 minerals + scv build time spent not mining, invested (orbital command build time) before a scan is desired. Both options are available, and both are possible prices for scans. They are, however, still prices when compared to some default option (muling).
Later on in the game, mules put terrans econ ahead of the other races, due to oversaturation and/or gold bases. Early on, the mules are necessary to compensate for slower worker production rate, the necessary cutting of two scvs while the orbital morphs, and the higher infrastructure cost of terran production structures and depots (scv isn't mining).
So, in the late game, scans are pretty much free. Early on, they are very very expensive.
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I'm a bit confused right now. I played on the 1.4 PTR though I was able to control my opponents Colossi. Did they take the nerf back or was it never active on the PTR yet?
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i think it's a bug with PTR. But maybe it'll translate to a bug when it goes live!
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Does anyone think the weaker fungal damage vs non armored unit will effect ZvZ? Seems like muta play might get stronger now. maybe muta ling infestor is gonna be the new direction for ZvZ?
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On September 13 2011 17:53 hun13 wrote:
Does anyone think the weaker fungal damage vs non armored unit will effect ZvZ? Seems like muta play might get stronger now. maybe muta ling infestor is gonna be the new direction for ZvZ?
Fungal won't 1-shot banes, for one thing. Less damage to mutas isn't a huge deal IMO, only those edge cases where your opponent doesn't quite have enough fungals to keep your mutas perma-rooted. It changes the minimum number of fungals to kill a muta from 4 to 5, but given human timing abilities Zs were probably already using 5 (without additional units attacking air) because of overlap. With anti-air in addition to the fungal, the root is the more important part of the spell anyway. Slight buff, I guess, but unit control and timing are much more important if you're going to use/defend against mutas.
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^ Going hydras against mutas is like going hydras against Protoss who went stargate (and thus goes straight to colossi). You will lose. Mutas > hydras, actually, in ZvZ, and more and more zergs are figuring that out now after the nestea vs losira finals.
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As protoss I'm kind of disappointed with the NP change because it represents yet another buff to the robo tech tree -- the tech tree of a-move powerhouse units (by a-move I mean that robo units don't have any active abilities, not that you don't ever micro them).
I'm tired of robo being the answer to everything for protoss, and I would have preferred to see a templar-centric fix for infestors. But I guess Blizzard can't buff templar without incidentally putting them on more equal footing versus ghosts.
So the way that the NP nerf will effect me is that I'm going to go robo every PvZ...again. Early spire will get run over by an immortal timing and everything else will get run over by a big colossus count. Yawn. The only difference from six months ago is that I'll need to keep my VR on a separate hotkey and avoid clumping them directly above my gateway army.
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On September 13 2011 21:16 galivet wrote:
As protoss I'm kind of disappointed with the NP change because it represents yet another buff to the robo tech tree -- the tech tree of a-move powerhouse units (by a-move I mean that robo units don't have any active abilities, not that you don't ever micro them).
I'm tired of robo being the answer to everything for protoss, and I would have preferred to see a templar-centric fix for infestors. But I guess Blizzard can't buff templar without incidentally putting them on more equal footing versus ghosts.
So the way that the NP nerf will effect me is that I'm going to go robo every PvZ...again. Early spire will get run over by an immortal timing and everything else will get run over by a big colossus count. Yawn. The only difference from six months ago is that I'll need to keep my VR on a separate hotkey and avoid clumping them directly above my gateway army.
This. Exactly this, thank you, its refreshing to see a protoss actually agree with us
Also @ hydralisk vs mutas: I think we can all agree that hydralisks are utterly useless. They dont work vs ground, they dont work vs air. The only thing they work against is the inbetween - and there are not many of those units in SCII.
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On September 13 2011 21:22 Thraundil wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 21:16 galivet wrote:
As protoss I'm kind of disappointed with the NP change because it represents yet another buff to the robo tech tree -- the tech tree of a-move powerhouse units (by a-move I mean that robo units don't have any active abilities, not that you don't ever micro them).
I'm tired of robo being the answer to everything for protoss, and I would have preferred to see a templar-centric fix for infestors. But I guess Blizzard can't buff templar without incidentally putting them on more equal footing versus ghosts.
So the way that the NP nerf will effect me is that I'm going to go robo every PvZ...again. Early spire will get run over by an immortal timing and everything else will get run over by a big colossus count. Yawn. The only difference from six months ago is that I'll need to keep my VR on a separate hotkey and avoid clumping them directly above my gateway army. This. Exactly this, thank you, its refreshing to see a protoss actually agree with us Also @ hydralisk vs mutas: I think we can all agree that hydralisks are utterly useless. They dont work vs ground, they dont work vs air. The only thing they work against is the inbetween - and there are not many of those units in SCII.
Hydralisks beat a smaller pack of hydralisks
On another note. Someone mentioned that overseers cost an OL. Do they? Do they really? Do you ever make an extra OL so you can make an overseer? They only cost it if you lose it.
They are mobile detection, they take almost no time to make and dont take up a production queue. Also, they are pretty much free now. Oh yeah, and some kinda cool spells. If I could make overseers as T, id pay 150/50 for an overseer any day. Its like a raven on crack for detection purposes.
(I may be wrong but are they faster? Ah just looked it up. Without speed they are a tad slower, but with they are pacy little fuckers.)
The main argument i hear against observers, is that they take up robo time. A robo costs 200/100. Again as a T, once on 3 bases i would always build one of these even if they only gave me observers. Just build a second robo. Fuck it build a 3rd if your on 5 bases. Why not? If you have so little money you cant spend on 5 mining bases, well you are really really good at macroing (or really bad i guess)
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Talking about how T scans are expensive, it's easy to argue that the cost of an overseer is 150/50 after patch now if your really worried about Terran detection build another command center in your main, at a cost of 400/0 it really isnt more expensive than like 2 overseers and then you dont have to worry about scans anymore
I'm not suggesting that this is a good idea, because IMO you can afford to scan anyway and I think the raven is a good unit. Just pointing out that T has that option for more easy to use anywhere detection if it really thinks using scans on its original OCs is such a waste.
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On September 13 2011 21:44 BoonSolo wrote:
Talking about how T scans are expensive, it's easy to argue that the cost of an overseer is 150/50 after patch now if your really worried about Terran detection build another command center in your main, at a cost of 400/0 it really isnt more expensive than like 2 overseers and then you dont have to worry about scans anymore
I'm not suggesting that this is a good idea, because IMO you can afford to scan anyway and I think the raven is a good unit. Just pointing out that T has that option for more easy to use anywhere detection if it really thinks using scans on its original OCs is such a waste.
Early game you cant really afford to scan as T has by far the worst worker production. You MULE to keep up. Your saying it like T is on even footing eco and has the MULE to get ahead.
An OC costs 550 not 400.
How can you argue that overseers cost 150/50? They only do if you lose them and have to replace with an overlord. Dont lose them so easily :/ Also DT and Banshees cant shoot up so nothing invisible (ignoring mothershippy shenanigans) can kill them.
1 more OC doesnt mean you dont have to worry about scans also, energy is slow. But yes an OC dedicated to scans would massively help detection wise. The thing is you never know when your going to need to scan in advance. Apart from standard scouting scans.
Its an interesting counter to my just build another robo, but i dont think it really works. 550 is a lot more than 200/100. And it would be ridiculous to not take an expo with that OC.
If you can safely make another OC and you dont expo with, you are probably now behind in bases. Building another robo in no way puts you behind.
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On September 13 2011 10:49 mage36 wrote:
why were people complaining about ravens? All i saw was a HSM buff. You are given what you are given per race. If you don't like it, you can just play some old school RTS game when everything was practically the mirror the the other. Every race has strengths and weaknesses, so you have to play to your strengths and cover your weaknesses.
Can we make babies?
Too many people who have only played one race giving absurdly biased opinions.
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On September 13 2011 22:41 Penatronic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 10:49 mage36 wrote:
why were people complaining about ravens? All i saw was a HSM buff. You are given what you are given per race. If you don't like it, you can just play some old school RTS game when everything was practically the mirror the the other. Every race has strengths and weaknesses, so you have to play to your strengths and cover your weaknesses. Can we make babies? Too many people who have only played one race giving absurdly biased opinions.
Actually I think that, for those not too seriously into the game, playing random is the best and most relaxing thing when we talk about new patches coming out: they never "nerf your race", and at the very worst you may end up wondering "I really can't understand what should I do now when I play X against Y.. Oh well... I'll see what X players do to me when I, as Y, do that exact thing.. and I'll copy that if it works"!
...then you feel as an enlightened zen sage when people cry about they own race been nerfed
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On September 13 2011 22:41 Penatronic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 10:49 mage36 wrote:
why were people complaining about ravens? All i saw was a HSM buff. You are given what you are given per race. If you don't like it, you can just play some old school RTS game when everything was practically the mirror the the other. Every race has strengths and weaknesses, so you have to play to your strengths and cover your weaknesses. Can we make babies? Too many people who have only played one race giving absurdly biased opinions.
There was a huge mothership buff too. a HUUGE one. However people will complain as they still kinda suck.
If you buff something from unusable to really bad, its still not good. HSM sucks. It kinda always will without a huge overhaul. You will only really see it in 15 hour TvT games ala boxer.
Thanks for the insightful input. It was more from a fortune cookie then starcraft related though
Do you know my lucky numbers? XD
EDIT: AAAhhh i quoted the wrong guy. I cba to change it but im sure people know who i meant to quote
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