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Hey, Gold league Protoss here and PvZ is my absolute weakest matchup. No matter what I do it always seems to fail, if I go mass blink Stalkers I get destroyed by Infestor/Ling, if I go Stargate...well this happens.
This is my latest game:
Replay
I tried to open up Stargate to force Roach/Hydra and compensate for the lack of map control that comes with going FFE. He anticipates this and shuts down my air play immediately. He then follows this up with a huge Roach/Hydra/Corruptor/Broodlord mix that demolishes me completely.
What did I do wrong here? What did I do right but perhaps could have done better?
This matchup is just incredibly frustrating for me (currently I'm 31-34...47% win rate) it's getting to the point where SC2 isn't even fun for me, since I feel like as soon as I hit a Zerg I'm going to lose.
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Okay...
1) You only need 1 cannon when you FFE.
2) You put like 45 probes in your main and never transfered.
3) Stargate was late, void rays were late, did no damage.
4) Applied no pressure after void rays. Do a 4 gate attack after to slow down zerg macro.
5) Worst forcefields I've seen in a long time.
6) 0 scouting done.
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Firstly, I was surprised to see how good gold league players have become. You guys both played better than I was expecting. I liked your initial build order and your transition. It looked like you had a solid game plan which was good. You also did really well on upgrades and were ahead of your opponent which is pretty rare for pvz. Anyhow, here are some things you could improve upon.
1. You lost 2 void rays for absolutely nothing. Your opponent went hydras, which is good and what you intended to do. However, you lost the voidrays when you really didn't need to. Instead of going deep into the creep you should be poking around the edges of his base (specifically behind his natural on that map) and at his potential 3rd base locations. Stay in a place where you know the void rays can safely escape.
2. Really bad probe distribution. If you take a look at the replay, you will notice that around the time your void rays died you had like 8-10 mining at your natural and 40 or so at your main. Make sure you have your workings mining as evenly as possible. This really hurt your income and prevented you from getting the number of gateway units you needed later on.
3. You didn't make an observer. Unless you can already see your opponent coming towards your base you should always make an observer first. If you had done this, you would have seen his massive corruptor count in preparation for your colossus and switched to immortals and/or templar instead.
4. When your opponent attacked all your colossus were in front and died instantly. Make sure you always have colossus in back and put them on a separate hotkey if you didn't already. You also had a void ray just randomly sitting at a watchtower all game as well. Void rays are necessary against brood lords unless you have mass blink stalker.
5. You had a ton of money. At the end you had over 3k minerals banked. The main problem was your gateway count. You need to make an additional 3-4 gateways each time you take an expansion (while the expansion is building). You only had around 5 at the end of the game.
Hope that helps, don't give up. =)
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The rally point for your expo at the nat was set to your main. At one point in the game you had about 16+ extra probes at your main not really increasing your mining rate. That's what hurt you the most that game. Your macro could use some work as well. You had 1k minerals at some point in the game.
Honestly, this isn't a really good replay. Please post another one where your rally point for your expo isn't pointing to your main. Unless you do this for all games, then you should really fix that bad habit.
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Thanks for the feedback! I'm shocked about my Probe saturation, usually I'm petty good about it, I didn't realise that.
My use of the Void Rays was really poor now that I realise it, I checked for the third with one after it was revealed rather than attempting to do damage, which was huge. I guess on one hand him automatically going Hydra was a good thing since it was exactly what I wanted him to do, but this ended up killing me as his maco was just ridiculously far ahead of mine. In the actual engagement I just moved my Colossi and they died practically immediately and my forcefields were off.
I think macro might have been the major mistake as I'm not sure if I could have won that battle (how much of a difference would those forcefields have made against such an insanely large force?)
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On August 01 2011 00:15 Xaeldaren wrote:
Thanks for the feedback! I'm shocked about my Probe saturation, usually I'm petty good about it, I didn't realise that.
My use of the Void Rays was really poor now that I realise it, I checked for the third with one after it was revealed rather than attempting to do damage, which was huge. I guess on one hand him automatically going Hydra was a good thing since it was exactly what I wanted him to do, but this ended up killing me as his maco was just ridiculously far ahead of mine. In the actual engagement I just moved my Colossi and they died practically immediately and my forcefields were off.
I think macro might have been the major mistake as I'm not sure if I could have won that battle (how much of a difference would those forcefields have made against such an insanely large force?)
The forcefields wouldn't have mattered too much, he had too many corrupters so he'd take out your collosi anyway.
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The biggest problem was just your gateway count and general scouting as has been said. When I play toss I like to do 1 gate for a while when I forge FE then add on like 4 or 5 more after I have reached about 15-18 probes on each mineral line, then once I take my third I throw down like 10 more gates because my macro with toss sucks and I find it allows me to miss some production cycles, my toss is probably mid diamond level because I have okay micro.
So while this isn't the best advice, it will probably work well for you until your warp in timings improve, as you start to get better and realize you can't hit the amount of warp ins you have without going broke you can start cutting gateways as your macro improves, using it in this way is kind of a crutch but will help you advance in leagues a little sooner which will help your practice in general.
Good luck.
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iv had the same problem and just remember. "im in gold. until masters, whenever i lose a game its either to cheese that i didnt scout, or bad macro."
make stuff, then go kill him.
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yeah you should check out how your income rockets when you get the transfer to your third also.
I think you sort that and your gateways and youd have a much larger army.
Also in the fight when you ff you didnt move back at all. I find that is often when p really hurts me.
Im gold also and a z. Right now i look forward to seeing void rays when i fasst expand because i have several queens. Also, I think he went hydra blind which is probably why only 2 queens.
I think his early game was built for your build in mind 
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On July 31 2011 23:50 Pwnographics wrote:
Okay...
1) You only need 1 cannon when you FFE.
2) You put like 45 probes in your main and never transfered.
3) Stargate was late, void rays were late, did no damage.
4) Applied no pressure after void rays. Do a 4 gate attack after to slow down zerg macro.
5) Worst forcefields I've seen in a long time.
6) 0 scouting done.
I would say 2 cannons. 1 cannon is extremely greedy and risky to roach ling all in
void rays do not necessarily have to do any damage, just put pressure onto him is enough,
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Yeah I'm just here to second ETisME. If I see a sentry or forge FE I'm already thinking roach ling timing attack ( I rarely all in with it, if the attack fails I'm usually hurting for units but have an equal amount of workers).
If I see 1 cannon I swear to god I'm going to kill you with vengeance. Don't be cheap.
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1 Cannon is fine. Keep your scout probe(s) alive. If you scout a push, make 2-3 more cannons and ready your sentries. If you hold it off, you basically have won.
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I just entered plat (also EU server) and I remember having the exact same problem as you. I would lose to zerg most every match to a point where I had absolutely no confidence I could win those.
I would suggest you change your mindset when entering PvZ matchups and for a start choose and use only ONE build order until you're comfortable with it and can do it blindfolded.
I suggest 3 gate sentry into expand -> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=194376
This is a pretty solid and tried build that opens toward any midgame you want.
As for the mindset, try to get rid of the frustration and just say to yourself it doesn't matter if you lose. You're practicing your build, you know that it will work, and just keep at it. Analyze your replays, recognize mistakes and be positive that you'll fix those on your next matchup. Just be confident.
After 3-4 wins you'll get that feeling that no zerg of equal skill could beat you. You'll know what you're doing and winning streaks will come.
tl;dr: pick a proven build and keep a positive attitude.
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im Silber League player and my normal Build against Zerg is a 3 Gate Sentry Expansion and it really works. Try it out, its really important that you make nice decend forcefields to cut the army of youre opponent. 
For Brootlords, go into Blink stalker and blink under them, should work pretty well.
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Hi, I have similar problems against Zerg - even when I win I think it's more out of luck or my opponent making a mistake more than any good play from me. So, I know what you mean, OP.
I don't like the Stargate play because I don't have the skill yet to pull it off (I'm only Gold on NA) and I want to focus on my macro - I can't micro these units well enough and keep up my macro well enough at the same time. Luckily I have 2 mates who play Zerg, so I've started to log some practice games versus them when the opportunity arises, focussing on 2 builds:
2 Gate Expo on smaller maps: what do people think of this? I think 3 Gate delays my expo a little too long while 1 Gate leaves me vulnerable to early attacks. I usually try to 2 Gates - Nexus - Forge - Cannon - Gate and so on. Is this a reasonably riskier variation of the 3 Gate?
Forge Fast Expand on larger maps: I'm still trying to work on my timings with this build but I don't know that I particularly like it - it makes me feel too passive for too long.
Thanks for any help, fellow Brotoss.
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Diamond Protoss, I hate PvZ right now too. Zergs are very good at countering 1-base stargate play. You can force a couple spores, delay tech a little, but you can't rely on doing any economic damage. A couple overlords, maybe a queen.
Here's what I've been doin:
Can I fast-expand on this map?
Yes: FFE. If Zerg goes hatch-first, you might be able to cannon their natural (Tal Darim). Pool first, I feel slightly ahead, but need to get pressure on quick or they'll just get a fast 3rd up. 6-gate +1, 7-gate +2 blink, or stargate
No: Did Zerg hatch first, or pool but no gas?
Yes: 1-gate expand. Can be hard to hold with just a zealot and 2 sentries. Then get 2 more gates and a forge
No: 3-gate expand or void ray expand (or dt expand). They all suck and you're behind.
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On August 02 2011 05:16 Sated wrote:Don't 3gate sentry expand. Any decent Zerg will know you can't pressure them and quickly take a third, before being able to infinitely deny your third because you can't leave your base without a ling run-by wrecking your stuff... or something like that. Go for an earlier stargate to take map control using void-rays. This forces hydra/queens/spores and delays their tech. It's especially good at denying their third, giving you time to then get your third running and to get colossus tech. Day[9] did a daily on it recently, looking at MCs games. Lemme find the link... EDIT: http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-323-ogsmc-s-pvz-5370956He even reviews a game were MC does 3gate sentry expand and gets his stuff wrecked. Derp
I disagree.
3 gate expand is one of the best builds at punishing a fast third from Zerg along with Forge FE -> 5/6 gate. The counter to Stargate play is a quick third from Zerg as long as they scout the Stargate and can connect the third with creep and have sufficient anti-air.
I think if you're learning PvZ, 3 gate expand is the best way to go about it as it provides a lot of flexibility in things you can do.
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On August 02 2011 05:30 aZealot wrote:
Hi, I have similar problems against Zerg - even when I win I think it's more out of luck or my opponent making a mistake more than any good play from me. So, I know what you mean, OP.
I don't like the Stargate play because I don't have the skill yet to pull it off (I'm only Gold on NA) and I want to focus on my macro - I can't micro these units well enough and keep up my macro well enough at the same time. Luckily I have 2 mates who play Zerg, so I've started to log some practice games versus them when the opportunity arises, focussing on 2 builds:
2 Gate Expo on smaller maps: what do people think of this? I think 3 Gate delays my expo a little too long while 1 Gate leaves me vulnerable to early attacks. I usually try to 2 Gates - Nexus - Forge - Cannon - Gate and so on. Is this a reasonably riskier variation of the 3 Gate?
Forge Fast Expand on larger maps: I'm still trying to work on my timings with this build but I don't know that I particularly like it - it makes me feel too passive for too long.
Thanks for any help, fellow Brotoss.
The reason protoss players started doing 3-gate expo is because of the amount of pressure that comes from 2 base roach-ling. If you're playing against a decent zerg who can execute the roach-ling all in well, 2 gate expansion should not hold against it. MC likes to do 1 gate expo on certain maps based on rush distance and how fast he gets his stargate out for void rays. This only works because of how crisp his build is and how he executes it to perfection each time.
The second reason why 3-gate expo is good is because it present some sort of threat for the enemy zerg player. If the zerg doesn't scout correctly, or gets too greed with drones, you can end the game with a FF on ramp and attacking his natural w/o spines. If you open 1 gate/2gate expo, he won't feel threatened and won't be intimated/tricked into building unnecessary units early on. If you 3 gate expo, try to move out with your army towards the middle of the map, clearing xel'nagas, even if it is an empty threat. It's likely to get some response from zerg players and he won't feel comfortable sitting back and droning the whole time.
I hope this helps. 2c from a high master zerg
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EPT
