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Hi. As I've started to play masters players I've begin to run into terran players that completely turtle using turrets, sensor towers, scans, and mass tanks to make any attack on them impossible. I can read exactly what they are doing but using any combination of ground army it seems impossible to stop.
Here's a replay I've analyzed 3 or 4 times tonight trying to figure out what I could have done differently to win. Here's how I'm looking at it. I scout his bunker and wall at the front of his ramp and assume he's going for a raven banshee tank all in. I cancel my 3rd gate and go 2 gate robo and pump out an obs and some immortals. When I realize he's not attacking and is just turtling up I expand and we both macro up to max armies where he pushes out and destroys me with mass blue flame hellions, mass tanks, and mass vikings only.
Negatives I can see
- Didn't take natural fast enough. Should have expod as soon as I scouted turrets around his base.
- Let him take 3rd too fast.
- Let him choose the place where we fight.
- Wasted my last ditch army trying to break a tank line instead of trying to catch up with equal bases.
- Not enough gateways when my bases came up and I was maxed.
Positives-
- Had more bases most of the game.
To me it just doesn't seem like the negatives add up to me winning the game if I correct them all perfectly. Am I supposed to make a massive tech switch to air or something? I'm not qqing balance I just honestly don't understand how to win this specific game.
http://www.mediafire.com/?o7vnf9hz9p8bsid
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Watched Replay, gonna give you my thoughts on improving your gameplay, calling special attention to the big ideas behind beating this style of Terran play.
*Chronoing first Zealot didn't serve any purpose, best spent elsewhere
*All those turrets are big clue you can expand safely. Immediately see 3 of them (300 minerals) which, coupled with engi bay (150 minerals) is a clue to expand NOW. Turrets are money not spent on army, turrets don't attack you, turrets of that number makes any hidden 1base timing attack less effective. He gets a little bigger econ lead from that extra time his expo is up and yours isn't. No robo bay before expo, expo right then. He can't attack with those siege tanks and marines into your zealot/gatewaymix/immortals.
*'Don't ever stop building probes. Ever. When you can box 3 mineral lines and visually see good saturation on that, that's when you stop. It might sound weird thinking to never stop building probes when lategame there is a point to do that, but you gotta keep the probe production in your mind until endgame. Idle for 30 seconds ~4:30 gametime, another 30 seconds ~8:30, 1 minute ~9:00. That's less income for you from expo, and less robos/gateways/tech you can support.
*First major thing is dropping the robobay before expansion. Gonna repeat myself here. Correct time would've been 8:30 not 10:30.
*And the late expansion doesn't give you the eco power to really tear apart his third (which isn't greedy at all given how late your natural is). Earlier expo -> add some more gates & chargelots or second robo and extra colossus/immortal -> make him pay for that third in a defeat.
---> An earlier expo with 5 gates and chargelots coupled with 3 colossus is his dead army
---> '' '' with chargelots and +1 armor and chrono'd colossus is a victory
---> Cut probes second robo double colossus production with existing immortals is his dead army
*He's really allowed to build his perfect maxed army with this lack of aggression taking advantage of times he doesn't have enough hellions for your zealots or vikings for your colossus. Vikings are on the expensive side for gas, and if he's been making tanks for this long time, he hasn't got hellions yet.
*Observer doesn't catch him moving out, it catches him when he's halfway across the map, less leapfrogging needed for his
*And now he attacks with his ideal army for yours, the result of allowing a meching player an easy third and a passive build to 200 (with mech upgrades). Not gonna comment on this battle because you need more experience on the steps leading up to the first major engagement so you can have some damage on his army/econ, or delay on third, or faster third and fourth for you (When was he really in a position to challenge faster expansions from you?)
Keep practicin, good luck
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I'm a Master league player (I just got there). I know that this is going to sound really stupid, but what I do when Terran go mass Hellion/Siege tank or just mass mech, is carrier/immortal. Sometimes I will harass with blink stalkers at the start if the game as well, before they have too many tanks.
Anyway, since they have mass tanks, you can afford to get an extremely early 3rd and saturate it. I'm not entirely sure how much exactly you can afford to produce, but I get 3 robos and 3 stargates and just pump the shit out of carriers and immortals, barely have a gateway army at all. You'd be surprised how well it works against this kind of composition, it's probably one of the only instances that calls for carriers, ever.
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On July 29 2011 14:49 -Trippin- wrote:
I'm a Master league player (I just got there). I know that this is going to sound really stupid, but what I do when Terran go mass Hellion/Siege tank or just mass mech, is carrier/immortal. Sometimes I will harass with blink stalkers at the start if the game as well, before they have too many tanks.
Anyway, since they have mass tanks, you can afford to get an extremely early 3rd and saturate it. I'm not entirely sure how much exactly you can afford to produce, but I get 3 robos and 3 stargates and just pump the shit out of carriers and immortals, barely have a gateway army at all. You'd be surprised how well it works against this kind of composition, it's probably one of the only instances that calls for carriers, ever.
Yup it actually makes a lot of sense. Carriers, with Interceptors, are actually not that gas heavy. Immortals aren't bad either.
Immortals force Tanks, PFs, and Ghosts.
Carriers force Turrets and Thors and vikings.
So they both cover everything, while the min:gas ratio is actually decent :D
But just a question, have you tried voids? Or are those not solid because he can get a lot of vikings?
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I understand that I should have expoed faster but what if it WAS just a raven stealth banshee tank all in? He just beats me for expoing early. It seems like a guessing game. Even by the time I saw the turrets it was a pretty late expand. And I know that carriers are great against mech but at the time it just didn't seem like an option. I'll take all that into consideration. Thanks danglars. I don't play that badly against bio terrans just so you don't think I'm completely bad.
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On July 29 2011 15:04 sealpuncher wrote:
I understand that I should have expoed faster but what if it WAS just a raven stealth banshee tank all in? He just beats me for expoing early. It seems like a guessing game. Even by the time I saw the turrets it was a pretty late expand. And I know that carriers are great against mech but at the time it just didn't seem like an option. I'll take all that into consideration. Thanks danglars. I don't play that badly against bio terrans just so you don't think I'm completely bad.
According to slayers cella if you do a 1 gate robo expand (which he says is very safe) you can actually defend a marine raven banshee tank all in. But that was without cloak, but unless your first Observer dies it shouldn't be a problem.
I watched him do this vs a high masters terran and he defended it pretty easily (cleaned it up quickly, didn't lose any probes if at all, had a lot of units left over considering he was trying to defend an all in with 2 base).
Now the question is, I guess, whether you should be doing a 1 gate robo expand or not (whether there are other all ins it cannot defend against).
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Masters Toss here
You actually did much better than I expected during the major engagement. However, you were at an upgrade disadvantage (his mech was 2/2, your ground was 2/1). I always chronoboost the crap out of double forge in a long game especially when my opponent turtles. You also failed to use guardian shield with your sentries which might have swung things around a lot. (You could have even hallucinated a few collosi for the vikings to waste their shots on). Every little bit helps.
The best way to engage his army is while it is leap frog pushing. Engaging when half the tanks are about walking forward and notsieged vs when he's all sieged up at your natural can easily make the difference between winning and losing the battle.
You also let him take his 3rd significantly before you took yours, so he really had an eco lead the whole game which should never be the case if HE is turtling.
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On July 29 2011 15:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 14:49 -Trippin- wrote:
I'm a Master league player (I just got there). I know that this is going to sound really stupid, but what I do when Terran go mass Hellion/Siege tank or just mass mech, is carrier/immortal. Sometimes I will harass with blink stalkers at the start if the game as well, before they have too many tanks.
Anyway, since they have mass tanks, you can afford to get an extremely early 3rd and saturate it. I'm not entirely sure how much exactly you can afford to produce, but I get 3 robos and 3 stargates and just pump the shit out of carriers and immortals, barely have a gateway army at all. You'd be surprised how well it works against this kind of composition, it's probably one of the only instances that calls for carriers, ever. Yup it actually makes a lot of sense. Carriers, with Interceptors, are actually not that gas heavy. Immortals aren't bad either. Immortals force Tanks, PFs, and Ghosts. Carriers force Turrets and Thors and vikings. So they both cover everything, while the min:gas ratio is actually decent :D But just a question, have you tried voids? Or are those not solid because he can get a lot of vikings?
Sounds like a really nice way to handle it, but I still dunno. I'm also a fresh master protoss player and I have run into this like 3 times or so. I just expand like 4 times or whatever (he is too immobile to stop me with his slow ass turtle) and then I attack randomly with 200/200 3/3/3 army just to die in vain. Tried voids last time but the ones I've met used thors as well as tank/hellion (and soon after lots of vikings), so the voids got aoed/straight up killed etc (hard to split em up efficently) So anyways, I will try carrier/immortal next time.
Also just as a lil note for the people that have not encountered this yet: tried to harass him with drops etc but he set up like 9mill turrets/sensor towers so the prisms/whatever just died. It is very hard to harass a turtle-terran of that kind.
I also wonder if an army of blink stalkers can destroy (blink into main etc) cuz of his slow mech army? or some kind of timing push? Also, has anyone tried out colossus?
Hope som pro-ass bro-toss will help us out with this one, I find it very weird and confusing tbh.. !
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EPT
