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On July 28 2011 05:29 Carlotto wrote:
I tried the build and won pretty straightforward whereas I hadn't won a TvP in something like 6 games.
I have a question though: why choosing the vehicle armor upgrade over the attack upgrade?
+ Show Spoiler +Thorzain wrote:
"It's mostly to be able to fight heavy gateway units compositions, as they deal relatively low damage but shoot fast (zealots have 2 attacks for example). This lets me worry more about the actual "power units" so to say, the units that aren't gateway units. And as long as i can counter them properly (colossus/air = vikings, mass immortals = more Thor heavy) I feel comfortable in the big fight.
Another important factor to point out is that I tried in the unit test map, and attack upgrades doesn't change how many hits a Thor kills either a stalker or a zealot, nor how many hits a Hellion needs to kill a zealot. So even though it will affect somewhat, since I didn't test all the various X Thor hits X hellion hits on unit X with and without attack upgrades, it's fairly useless. Armor however, lets Hellions take 1 more zealot and stalker hits, and lets Thors take many more zealot/stalker hits."
by the man himself!
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yeah thors basically still 2-3 shot whatever unit they're fighting regardless of their weapon upgrades
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Wow, this build looks awesome. Will try!
Also, I'm wondering -- do you have any similar mechanical builds that integrate BC's? I'd really like to use more BC's in my Terran play!
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On July 29 2011 11:00 kusu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 05:29 Carlotto wrote:
I tried the build and won pretty straightforward whereas I hadn't won a TvP in something like 6 games.
I have a question though: why choosing the vehicle armor upgrade over the attack upgrade? + Show Spoiler +Thorzain wrote:
"It's mostly to be able to fight heavy gateway units compositions, as they deal relatively low damage but shoot fast (zealots have 2 attacks for example). This lets me worry more about the actual "power units" so to say, the units that aren't gateway units. And as long as i can counter them properly (colossus/air = vikings, mass immortals = more Thor heavy) I feel comfortable in the big fight.
Another important factor to point out is that I tried in the unit test map, and attack upgrades doesn't change how many hits a Thor kills either a stalker or a zealot, nor how many hits a Hellion needs to kill a zealot. So even though it will affect somewhat, since I didn't test all the various X Thor hits X hellion hits on unit X with and without attack upgrades, it's fairly useless. Armor however, lets Hellions take 1 more zealot and stalker hits, and lets Thors take many more zealot/stalker hits."
by the man himself!
Yep that's pretty much it lol, for example a Thor will always (i think always?) need to 3 shot a stalker or zealot, it won't be able to 2 shot one of them unless it's a +3 attack Thor vs an unupgraded Zealot, lol. And that's not very realistic.
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Perfect! i have been doing mech for only like 2 weeks in every match up, while i could find a TvZ mech build to coppy, I was in the dark in TvP and just open banchie or BW tank exspo.
Thanks
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On July 29 2011 12:18 Tactical_Tim wrote:
Wow, this build looks awesome. Will try!
Also, I'm wondering -- do you have any similar mechanical builds that integrate BC's? I'd really like to use more BC's in my Terran play!
Wouldn't we all? Unfortunately they aren't viable against toss, blink stalkers/void rays are just too good. Still good against terran though, but that's another thread. They may have a place in a super Terran deathball, but it's simply not gonna happen in a real game.
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Interesting build, just hope blizzard wont give Thors another nerf because of this XD
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Russian Federation473 Posts
why do you need 3 barracks to produce ghosts?
2 thors constantly producing will eat almostly all the gas income from 2 bases, and to constantly produce ghosts from 3 rax you need all the gas income from 4 geysers...
vikings are also very gas-heavy, one starport with reactor = over 200 gas spent over minute.
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On July 29 2011 11:00 kusu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 05:29 Carlotto wrote:
I tried the build and won pretty straightforward whereas I hadn't won a TvP in something like 6 games.
I have a question though: why choosing the vehicle armor upgrade over the attack upgrade? + Show Spoiler +Thorzain wrote:
"It's mostly to be able to fight heavy gateway units compositions, as they deal relatively low damage but shoot fast (zealots have 2 attacks for example). This lets me worry more about the actual "power units" so to say, the units that aren't gateway units. And as long as i can counter them properly (colossus/air = vikings, mass immortals = more Thor heavy) I feel comfortable in the big fight.
Another important factor to point out is that I tried in the unit test map, and attack upgrades doesn't change how many hits a Thor kills either a stalker or a zealot, nor how many hits a Hellion needs to kill a zealot. So even though it will affect somewhat, since I didn't test all the various X Thor hits X hellion hits on unit X with and without attack upgrades, it's fairly useless. Armor however, lets Hellions take 1 more zealot and stalker hits, and lets Thors take many more zealot/stalker hits."
by the man himself!
OK thanks a lot! (And to the other answers.)
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On July 29 2011 16:06 Ganseng wrote:
why do you need 3 barracks to produce ghosts?
2 thors constantly producing will eat almostly all the gas income from 2 bases, and to constantly produce ghosts from 3 rax you need all the gas income from 4 geysers...
vikings are also very gas-heavy, one starport with reactor = over 200 gas spent over minute.
You only get 3 rax if he is going some type of HT tech, or heavy heavy immortals. You can therefore cut viking production. Also you will find you have spare minerals with this build and you will be expanding fairly quickly.. prolly @11min then you'll have no problems with production
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What are you going to do if the person goes Double Forge Citadel + High Templars and Collosus and actually knows how to micro.
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On July 30 2011 02:35 kineSiS- wrote:
What are you going to do if the person goes Double Forge Citadel + High Templars and Collosus and actually knows how to micro.
Seems like he gets every tech choice there is, maybe push a little earlier and punish him for that?
Also you should probably get doulbe ups.
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What about using marines instead of hellions for your mineral sink?
Lets consider the pros and cons of using marines in your build instead of hellions:
Pros:
-Infrastructure costs less gas (100 vs 150gas)
-More hp per mineral
-can shoot air units
-can kill buildings much quicker
-dps MUCH better against basically everything except grouped up zealots and hts (unusual due to charge spreading them out)
-scale better with upgrades then hellions, would also allow for ghosts to receive upgrades
-can be healed with medivacs, can snipe tech and nexus on drops
-smaller size allows for more units to fire at once.
Cons
-infrastructure more mineral expensive (400v200)
-lose out on vehicle armour upgrades
-more vulnerable to splash damage due to small size
-less mobile
-less effective for mineral line harassment esp without medivacs
Conclusion:
So basically the crux of the argument becomes, is the increased damage of marines against anything not light worth the extra splash damage they take? I would hyposize that the answer depends on how well you can micro your marines.
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On August 03 2011 00:27 statikg wrote:
What about using marines instead of hellions for your mineral sink?
Lets consider the pros and cons of using marines in your build instead of hellions:
Pros:
-Infrastructure costs less gas (100 vs 150gas)
If you're building hellions, what you can do is have three techlabbed factories and alternate between rounds of 3 thors and 3 hellions, since ghosts and upgrades are fairly gas-hungry, the resources work out fairly well.
-More hp per mineral
This is only true if you get combat shield, which costs 100 gas. On top of that, if you want them to actually be more effective meatshields you need armor upgrades, which take more gas and a Ebay.
-can shoot air units
The only air units from protoss I'd be worried about are carriers. Voids and Pheonix would be laughable against mass thor. I haven't seen carriers yet, so I don't know how good marines are against them.
-can kill buildings much quicker
Hopefully, your composition will be so much stronger that it will roll your opponent's army and you won't need to go building stomping. Even then, the marines will typically be in the front of each push and so your army after the battle will basically be only Thor since everything else died, and Thor are just fine at destroying buildings.
-dps MUCH better against basically everything except grouped up zealots and hts (unusual due to charge spreading them out)
True, but thor already do a ton of damage, I mostly use the hellions to soak up immortal shot and clear out the chargelots. The hellions aren't the point of the build, Thor/Ghost is.
-scale better with upgrades then hellions, would also allow for ghosts to receive upgrades
If you're upgrading weapons of your mineral sink, they're no longer a mineral sink. Again, the main point of this build is to allow the Thor to be at its maximum effectiveness, and everything else is a support unit.
-can be healed with medivacs, can snipe tech and nexus on drops
Are you really going to be building medivacs? It majorly cuts in on your thor count.
-smaller size allows for more units to fire at once.
The speed of hellions allow them to all be able to fire fairly easily with basic micro.
Cons
-infrastructure more mineral expensive (400v200)
-lose out on vehicle armour upgrades
-more vulnerable to splash damage due to small size
-less mobile
-less effective for mineral line harassment esp without medivacs
Conclusion:
So basically the crux of the argument becomes, is the increased damage of marines against anything not light worth the extra splash damage they take? I would hyposize that the answer depends on how well you can micro your marines.
Don't get me wrong, marines are amazing and have tons of uses. But it seems to me that in this particular style of play they have no place except to help you secure your first expansion. Marines are great when you're upgrading them and putting them in medivacs and all that. But then you're no longer playing a Thor/Ghost style, you're playing MMG with some Thor thrown in the mix.
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This is from a Terran friend of mine:
He has trouble facing a 200/200 toss army against his maxed army. He's in a situation where the Protoss has something like 6 collosi, 5 void rays, and mass zealots. He goes around I believe 15 vikings, 8 thors, etc as the guide states. Any specific micro tips for him like I guess for example what should be focused with each unit?
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Sorry to ressurect without further input, but the replays given dont seem to link to anything & I am quite interested in seeing them. Ihavent had a response from a PM to the OP, could anyone who saved the re-upload or send them?
Thanks!!!
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Wow, this build is so similar to a build I thought up of after I switched to terran. I hated going standard MMM and loved Thors, but I thought a Factory Expo was too weak, so I made my Thor build off 2 rax expos. Your build is so similar its scary. Only difference is that I will change my composition to fit my enemy's army with using marauders and cutting hellions if I'm up vs like colossi or something. I'm only gold on my terran account (but with like a 90% w/l ratio) and I beat a diamond clanmate with the prototype build. Only thing is I skip the raven, or I don't take it with my push, due to my failures at micro using tab to EMP and PDD.
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Dear uncle Dolan,
What about using this build in the TvZ match-up? Since they often tend to go for Muta's anyway, a couple of Thors accompanied with marines should be a hellish push.
Right now I use a Siege expand for all the match-ups, of which I find it the hardest to use against Protoss. Against T it creates a stalemate if you don't push early though...
Anyway, I was wondering if you could refresh the replays for me? They don't seem to work anymore. And how viable do you think this strategy is (in high Bronze) with the new patch that's out now?
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Sorry to bump this, but I'd really love to see this build in action. Does anyone have a replay I could have a look at - can't find a single one in all the usual places, and the ones listed on the OP aren't actually of this build - a few of them aren't even TvP, not sure what's going on there! If anyone could furnish me good, I'd appreciate it.
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On January 04 2012 00:05 lolpaca wrote:
Sorry to bump this, but I'd really love to see this build in action. Does anyone have a replay I could have a look at - can't find a single one in all the usual places, and the ones listed on the OP aren't actually of this build - a few of them aren't even TvP, not sure what's going on there! If anyone could furnish me good, I'd appreciate it.
Sorry mate! i didn't save replays wheni did this build  It's really fun tho hihi. Uppgrades are super important!!
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EPT
