EPTZerg counter to mass archons? - Page 2
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IIIOmegaIII
Sweden319 Posts
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Exley
United States239 Posts
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NoScary
United States151 Posts
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RimJaynor
Canada145 Posts
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Dreyven
Germany33 Posts
On May 27 2011 20:27 Demus wrote: roach hydra against charge lots? YES. That mix is one of the more effective ones against chargelots, besides pure banelings and air obv. i would like to differ pure Hydra/roach get's beaten by zealot/archon you would think that it's good but somehow it is not my test showed that hydra/roach sucks against an even supply and cost zealot/archon mix (19 zealot + 3 archon vs 12 roach + 12 hydra) both armys had 1/1, zerg had roachspeed and grooved spine and toss had charge like the people above already mentioned... go infestor + something (not hydra!) and hope he doesn't bring feedback with him or attacks too early i personally think that zergs not able to confront this composition in a straight fight without the use of infestors or broodlords btw, if the toss micros well, then banelings are wastet an archon can tank 21 banelings if he pulls back his zealots he will end up fine... way better than you are and "if he has mass archon you can have t3 units" doesn't apply you can push pretty early with 3 archons + charge... that's already devastating + ultras are not good against zealot archon  | ||
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Unveiler
34 Posts
As a heavy ling/infestor/ultra user myself I began to see archon style a lot more from toss (since colossus play vs NP / ultra is not ideal). If you closely watch replays you'll notice infestors are often not of as much use with zealots meandering forward into them, and generally just having a lot of DPS output against lings (as opposed to stalkers which are kind of worthless against lings). The archons end up being more of a distraction than a true threat for costs (for cost lings are rather good) (and zealot + archon are both quite decent against ultras). Solutions: 1. baneling. Be it in drops or not, banelings do more or less guaranteed damage and are only really disrupted by sentry (at which point the archon count diminishes greatly and drops become more useful -- but with ultras FF kind of pointless). Also with less than ideal macro banelings are an easy way to mineral/gas dump and increase strength of existing ling army. 2. ling (or other) drop harass. Archons manage to be even less mobile than colossus. 3. mutas: box against archon helps. Ling/muta is still strong against toss in general 4. earlier aggression. DT buys map control for expand, but it really doesn't buy map control if you know what I mean. DTs cannot kill roaches fast enough to prevent substantial damage to an expo (even at natural), and robo may be delayed to allow burrow shenanigans. 5. have fun! When my normal ZvP starting to get abnormal with this newfound trickery it reinforced to me realize just how amazing/dynamic SC2 really is | ||
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TheSambassador
United States186 Posts
The Archon's range, while recently buffed, is still only 3. Given that most Protoss don't even both with Shield upgrades until later in the game, you could focus fire the archons with the hydras and let roaches tank a bit. 3 volleys from 10 Hydras kills an Archon no problem... even without upgrades. Zealots, even chargelots, are a joke against roaches without any other support. If they're going Archon/Zealot, lings are literally useless. Archons one-shot lings, and the splash lets zealots one-shot them afterwards. Don't even bother. Really, the answer is to focus down the Archons. While Infestors can lock them down for a few seconds, it's not really super great to spend an entire fungal on 1-2 archons. Archons are surprisingly squishy due to their lack of any real armor. They die FAST with some simple focus fire. | ||
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Marzuki
United States30 Posts
On May 29 2011 05:53 Falcon-sw wrote: Just played a 'toss who went archon/chargelot. I responded with hydra/roach. Hydras got eaten by the chargelots. Everything got eaten by the archons. It was fun. He ended the game saying he could do that with his feet.  Next time I'll go infestor/hydra, I think. I think roach/hydra would have been quite effective against chargelot/archon. Perhaps micro your hydras a bit better so they are always out of range of charge, or micro your roaches so they are always protecting the hydras? Roaches should be there en masse to soak up damage and physically limit mobility of the opponent's army. An infestor or two would seriously help this composition to fungal the chargelots. | ||
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Dreyven
Germany33 Posts
On June 02 2011 06:28 Marzuki wrote: I think roach/hydra would have been quite effective against chargelot/archon. Perhaps micro your hydras a bit better so they are always out of range of charge, or micro your roaches so they are always protecting the hydras? Roaches should be there en masse to soak up damage and physically limit mobility of the opponent's army. An infestor or two would seriously help this composition to fungal the chargelots. Trust me, pure Hydra roach doesn't work or... can anyone explain me y it would? every amount of hydra roach will get eaten alive by an kinda even amount of zealot archon the zealots deal really well against roaches (with charge you can't really micro the roaches and a roach looses to a zealot) and the archons with their 40+ dmg really kill everything... especially hydras (2 shots) once in range your only "hope" with such an army would be suiciding and sniping all archons... you will loose your army, but the archons are hard to replenish and if not killed... they will just heal up to full health | ||
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zJayy962
1363 Posts
Doing these two things also keep you completely safe against any archon/zealot midgame pushes. I still haven't seen too much of this on ladder, but playing custom with a few friends tells me a few things to note about zealot/archon. 1. Always invest in burrow. It keeps you 100% safe against 6gate and any midgame zealot archon pushes. 2. Creep spread is outrageously more important if you can start engaging his army in the middle of the map and kite him all the way back to your natural with roach/hydra 3. Fighting this army kinda flips the matchup on its head because fighting in chokes can be benificial. 4. After surviving the midgame with burrowed roaches/hydras you can transition into tier 3 because of how useless zealots are in the lategame vs infestors. 5. Multipronged attacks are amazing at slowing Protoss down when Protoss has a low stalker count. This works because Protoss usually deal with drops and nydus with a large number of blink stalkers. Without this kind of mobility, pulling the army apart becomes that much more effective. | ||
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.Mthex-
United States168 Posts
On May 27 2011 20:27 Demus wrote: roach hydra against charge lots? YES. That mix is one of the more effective ones against chargelots, besides pure banelings and air obv. This is extremely true, but the emphasis really need to be that its MOSTLY roaches with A FEW hydras, way way way way WAYYYY too often to people going for a 1:1 ratio of roach:hydra. You need about 2-3 (mostly on the 3 end) roaches for each hydra in this sort of build, That "meatshield" is oh so very important. Oh and never forget the good ol scoot n shoot, + bringing in speed overlords for creep never hurts. | ||
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