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My build is not even close to being as refined as Losira or anything, but I've found this overall style to be amazing in close positions ZvT.
I'm not exaggerating when I say I haven't lost a close positions Metal/Temple game in a month or so against Terran.
I get 44-50 drones, +1 upgrade, speed upgrades, an extra hatch (for a total of 3) and early creep spread. You can almost always count on the Terran going for a standard mid-game timing push that you can easily crush. Most timing pushes are built around the fact that you're getting a spire and a third base, but in close positions with my particular build/concept, you're actually going for what amounts to a two-base all-in.
Of course you can expand with this build, but I prefer to take the forward expansion close to the Terran's base since you can afford continuous aggression to keep him on the defensive. Most of the time though, this style breaks the Terran so easily that there's not even a need for an expansion and you have enough resources off two base for several large attack waves.
If at the very least you can decimate his natural or the SCVs there, you're already way ahead, and with your unit production in full swing, breaking the main usually isn't that hard. This is the kind of build where cost-inefficient baneling damage can be game winning (50 banelings rolling into tank fire to break down his wall, letting the rest of your army into his main, for example), so always keep that in mind.
I'm just high diamond, not masters or anything, but I think even for ling/bling/muta Zergs, this build should be used at least in close positions - it beats trying to play a standard macro game in that situation, at the very least.
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great write-up. After watching Losira's style in the recent gsl, i have fooled with this roach heavy play myself but not the extent that you have broken down the build. perhaps that's why i am still high plat  It is a good change of pace from the standard and predictable ling/bane/muta. I like to transition into infestors sometimes as well. So many times, i noticed, the terran will throw down turrets just because of the matchup, which is only wasted minerals and allows you to leap ahead. I will throw down a spire for preemptive measures and when terran scan, they immediately begin turret production. I have won a lot of games v terran using this style of play without even making a single muta while having the spire for intimidation purposes. Very unique style by Losira indeed and i enjoy attempting it to the best of my abilities.
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wow this read is great, how come i didnt read this post earlier?
i am going to try this for sure, the #1 thing with going roaches is pressure, u have to keep tank number low
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i could just watch the first game, but i think also some pros dont see the power of +1 carpace on zergling take one aditional tank hit and roaches have +2 armor are taking much less dmg from marines.
i try to play this style with Infestors instead of baneling and less mutas and it works wonders. (just a diamond player) Mutas mainly for anti drop and the killing of medivacs or tanks if they are free.
good upgradet zerglings & Roaches with fungal kill everything in my skill level.
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I've been using this style as master's ever since Mr.Bitter did a writeup about it, and I freakin love it. It just crushes those marine/tank pushes in the mid-game so bad compared to going straight ling/bane/muta.
Sending roaches in first to tank shots is soooooooo much more efficient than lings where you'll lose like 30 of them to marines and tanks before you ever even get a single hit off. Meanwhile with roaches, it takes 3 shots from a tank to kill a single roach, and the armor on them makes them take marine shots so much better.
I've had contains set up on my nat with 4-5 tanks and a bunch of perfectly pre-spread marines, and it's just like "lol thanks for the units", where as if I was going ling/bane/muta instead, it could very well be a tremendously hard contain to break.
The only real downside to this build is that you get your spire up about 2-3 minutes later than normal, but with the current way TvZ is played, it's worth it to delay them to crush the inevitable midgame Terran push.
you can find Mr.Bitter's write up about Losira's ZvT here
http://evolutioncomplete.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=151&Itemid=788
And here's a replay of me using roach/ling/bane against a fairly high master's player
http://www.carameldream.net/Starcraft/Tachion_ZvT_Roachlingbane.SC2Replay
Can skip forward to the first engagement to see what I was talking about regarding contains. He lost 40 supply, I lost 20. To think that running straight into a siege line could actually be cost efficient makes me so damn giddy :D
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When doing this, do people usually get Mutalisks to stop drops after fending off the midgame tank push? Do you harass with them, transitioning into the "standard" muta/ling/bane, or do you just headbutt the Terran with roach/bane/ling? When does this stop working? I really like the concept, but I never tried it.
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On April 19 2011 21:37 theMarkovian wrote:
When doing this, do people usually get Mutalisks to stop drops after fending off the midgame tank push? Do you harass with them, transitioning into the "standard" muta/ling/bane, or do you just headbutt the Terran with roach/bane/ling? When does this stop working? I really like the concept, but I never tried it.
It really just depends on your style. I for one go mutalisks after this because I hate hate hate dealing with multi-drop harass with only ground units. To me, this is basically just an opening that gets you safely into the midgame. Where you take it after that is up to you.
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On April 19 2011 21:47 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 21:37 theMarkovian wrote:
When doing this, do people usually get Mutalisks to stop drops after fending off the midgame tank push? Do you harass with them, transitioning into the "standard" muta/ling/bane, or do you just headbutt the Terran with roach/bane/ling? When does this stop working? I really like the concept, but I never tried it. It really just depends on your style. I for one go mutalisks after this because I hate hate hate dealing with multi-drop harass with only ground units. To me, this is basically just an opening that gets you safely into the midgame. Where you take it after that is up to you.
Thanks! I'll watch your rep when I get home.
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Tried it out last night on the korean server because the terrans there are just vicious compared to NA (especially with early pressure which the roaches helped a TON against) and I liked the feel of it a lot. Did the early roach push like Sheth does and was able to walk past the bunker and kill the depot forcing an SCV pull. Killed about 10-12 SCVs and he pulled marines out of the bunker to the main at which point I ran 10 lings into his natural (he did 1 rax FE on shakuras) and got him down to like 15 SCVs to my 35 drones. Was pretty much over at that point. Tech switched on 6 gas to 12 mutas and stopped a drop and killed some more SCVs. Took a 4th while pumping lings and roaches. Got maxed, morphed like 100 lings to banes since money was piling up and max supply and pushed his natural and 3rd at the same time was able to crush the planetary at his 3rd and did terrible damage at his natural at the same time.
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What are your thoughts on getting burrow + move for roaches? Ive seen it be really effective. When trying to attack a siege line if you just spread out your roaches you can eat up a lot more damage thanks to the burrow regen. It also opens up the door to expansion blocks and baneling mines, definitely forces more scans from the T
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^Burrow move sounds pretty cool, but it's a bit of an investment and it is fairly committal, which I'm not a fan of in the case of roaches since marauders are so easy to tech swap into.
I've been doing this too, very helpful against that early push. And with only 2 bases and this early, a drop isn't horrible to deal with at all.
However, I definitely like swapping to mutas right after I feel safe and am taking a third. I'll get +1 for roaches and their speed upgrade, but that's about it. Roaches stay alive really freaking well, so making a good dozen is solid. The main reason I choose mutas it that it keeps the medivac count low; the combination of roaches, lings, mutas, and blings makes for a powerful ground blitz that wipes out the ground very fast, but without mutas, those medivacs can usually escape. I don't like using fungals on medivacs because terran has pretty quick production and unless i can nab like 3 medivacs in one fungal its costing precious energy. Meanwhile mutas do a great job at picking them off, and force turrets.
After a big fight though, I'll usually remax on roaches and go kill stuff. So easy to just make like 30 roaches and roll everything on the ground with some muta/ling support.
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Does anyone know where I could find .sc2replay files of Losira doing this build? I would really like to be able to analyze it more in depth than through the GSL videos.
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I have been using this lately and it is absolutely sick good. It seems that most Terran's are afraid to make a lot of marauders for the fear of being crushed by a lot of zerglings. I was always wary to try roaches because of that, but it seems through a lot of experimentation, they just won't make marauders.
This build is also pretty gas light so it can lead into some fairly quick ultras/broodlords. I've been crushing pure mech, marine/tank and bio with this.
Nothing like having a group of 25+ roaches and a few ultras storm through tank fire to open up the way for lings and banes with maybe an infestor or two in there to help.The remaxing power of speed roaches is amazing, especially when they have no tanks left and nothing but a few marines.
Since that new 3 rax SCV all in is so popular, I've been going gas/pool/speed/expand on 21 build and then grabbing roaches before banes if I scout no all in. I can get a pretty early lair since I have the extra gas so cloaked banshees have been a nono. Bunkers don't do so well against focus firing from roaches, so I can do damage while being safe from those pesky banshees. Blue flame is completely useless against such early roaches and is basically a completely wasted investment unless they can be dropped later in the game. I'm going to work on 2 really solid roach openers, 1 for gas first, 1 for hatch first and try to make them as efficient as possible. ZvT was one of the things really keeping me out of masters and since I've been going roaches, I'm 9-0 in ZvT.
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I've been playing this style for a long time. It's not great on really big maps, but it's great on maps like xel'naga. I also think this article focuses a lot on openings when really it's a unit composition. You can open hatch first, pool first, speed first, roaches first, "spanishiwa" style and all of that can transition well into this composition.
One way of helping to deal with drops is getting some extra queens to zone and making sure you spread creep around your base. If you're on more than 3 bases you're definitely going to want a least a few mutas to zone drops.
Upgrades: You obviously want to focus mainly on melee and carapace, +1 range can be better than +1 carapace if they're not getting tanks (but this is really good against non-tank compositions already). My goal is normally to secure 4 bases and go ultra-baneling against most composition, broodlords against heavy mech. You absolutely need to get drop if they're going mech, you can very much abuse terran with drop with this composition.
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Does anybody else direct me or upload more replays of this style? Like someone said earlier, analyzing this in a post/VoD is not the same as analyzing a replay of it.
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JulyZerg did some ling/bling/roach aggression at MLG
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In the finals of MLG Columbus (Losira vs MMA) MMA absolutely picked apart Losira using a very drop heavy style while Losira did a similar style to this. Drops are definitely one of the weakness of this build, even more so than infestor based builds.
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EPT
