|
On February 21 2011 18:27 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 00:23 DarKFoRcE wrote:On February 20 2011 23:30 branflakes14 wrote:On February 20 2011 22:08 Alpina wrote:On February 20 2011 21:03 branflakes14 wrote:On February 20 2011 20:44 Alpina wrote:On February 20 2011 19:00 branflakes14 wrote:On February 20 2011 18:44 Alpina wrote:
So first thing is that this combo is very gas intensive you should have like 4+ bases to support that. Ultras are the same cost as his Colossi and you don't need that many of them as the idea is they don't die, and Hydras cost the same gas as Stalkers. Not even close to gas intensive. If Protoss can mass 300/200, 250/150 and 125/50 units on 2 bases, I'm fairly sure Zerg doesn't need 4+ bases to do something less gas intensive. Why do you compare ultras to collosi? Few collosi can wipe out every ground unit zerg has with good ground support and good forcefields. Few ultras gonna die until you even come close to toss army. You need a lot of them and upgraded to be worth something. What about bases you are again just theorycrafting. Toss can get a deathball on 2 bases, so you want to say that zerg can go ultras on 2 base? LOL "Protoss can get a huge 300/200/6, 250/150/3, 125/50/2 death ball off 2 bases but Zerg just doesn't have the resources to do the same." - every Zerg player ever. You'd think creep reduced income from mineral patches or something. Can't you read what I wrote? If you have, let's say, 4-5 collosus you can kill XX amount of hydra, etc if controlled well, if I have 4-5 ultras then they just die before reaching your huge army. You need much bigger army to fight toss deathball. Thing is some protosses just can't understand no matter how many times you say that. Didn't you watch the replay? The Ultralisks don't die, that's the whole point of this. Their size reduces Colossus splash, their armour mitigates more damage than any other unit in game (except Hardened Shield in the right circumstance), and their health pool is so big that you have enough time to react with Transfuse. That's not even including their ridiculous splash damage. The only problem with this army composition is surviving long enough to get there, otherwise it's the perfect way of beating the "death ball". And this is not a gas intensive army. You don't need to spam Ultralisks, you just need to keep the ones you have alive. so you take a replay where an uncontrolled protoss army loses to your composition as a proof that your composition is good? whats next? wanna write strategies and upload replays against the easy AI as a proof for how great it is? i admittedly dont have a very high opinion of your strategy, but i would actually be very happy to be proven wrong, but so far youre not doing a very good job at that. [url blocked] This is a replay done the same way as the first, except this time instead of 100 supply of Ultra/Queen/Hydra, I used 200 supply of Hydra/Roach/Corruptor against the 150 supply of Protoss, and did as much corrupting as I could with the Corruptors and focused Colossi as best I could, and the Protoss wins. Since the Protoss army is attack moved in both replays, lack of micro can be cancelled out as a common factor. If this isn't solid enough evidence that Zergs are tackling the "death ball" wrong in the late game, then nothing ever will be and Zergs should continue to complain about their race being underpowered. The upgrades I used were Roach speed, Hydralisk range and Colossus range.
So your imaginable unit composition with unit tester "proof" is enough evidence for this to work?
Thing is you can't just blindly take a unit composition. No zerg is going to get hydras and then ultras - he just die before that, so what should I use before I get ultras? Attack with roach/hydra and get crushed and then wait for my reinforcing ultras (who produces 5mins) to get my "perfect'' unit composition while protoss deathball is moving towards my main?
You are just blindly looking at late game composition, but it's so hard to get there. Usually you got range upgrades for roaches and hydras, but in this case you need melee upgrades for ultras, right? So again it's not easy to transition from roach/hydra/corruptor into ultras.
|
On February 21 2011 19:09 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 18:27 branflakes14 wrote:On February 21 2011 00:23 DarKFoRcE wrote:On February 20 2011 23:30 branflakes14 wrote:On February 20 2011 22:08 Alpina wrote:On February 20 2011 21:03 branflakes14 wrote:On February 20 2011 20:44 Alpina wrote:On February 20 2011 19:00 branflakes14 wrote:On February 20 2011 18:44 Alpina wrote:
So first thing is that this combo is very gas intensive you should have like 4+ bases to support that. Ultras are the same cost as his Colossi and you don't need that many of them as the idea is they don't die, and Hydras cost the same gas as Stalkers. Not even close to gas intensive. If Protoss can mass 300/200, 250/150 and 125/50 units on 2 bases, I'm fairly sure Zerg doesn't need 4+ bases to do something less gas intensive. Why do you compare ultras to collosi? Few collosi can wipe out every ground unit zerg has with good ground support and good forcefields. Few ultras gonna die until you even come close to toss army. You need a lot of them and upgraded to be worth something. What about bases you are again just theorycrafting. Toss can get a deathball on 2 bases, so you want to say that zerg can go ultras on 2 base? LOL "Protoss can get a huge 300/200/6, 250/150/3, 125/50/2 death ball off 2 bases but Zerg just doesn't have the resources to do the same." - every Zerg player ever. You'd think creep reduced income from mineral patches or something. Can't you read what I wrote? If you have, let's say, 4-5 collosus you can kill XX amount of hydra, etc if controlled well, if I have 4-5 ultras then they just die before reaching your huge army. You need much bigger army to fight toss deathball. Thing is some protosses just can't understand no matter how many times you say that. Didn't you watch the replay? The Ultralisks don't die, that's the whole point of this. Their size reduces Colossus splash, their armour mitigates more damage than any other unit in game (except Hardened Shield in the right circumstance), and their health pool is so big that you have enough time to react with Transfuse. That's not even including their ridiculous splash damage. The only problem with this army composition is surviving long enough to get there, otherwise it's the perfect way of beating the "death ball". And this is not a gas intensive army. You don't need to spam Ultralisks, you just need to keep the ones you have alive. so you take a replay where an uncontrolled protoss army loses to your composition as a proof that your composition is good? whats next? wanna write strategies and upload replays against the easy AI as a proof for how great it is? i admittedly dont have a very high opinion of your strategy, but i would actually be very happy to be proven wrong, but so far youre not doing a very good job at that. [url blocked] This is a replay done the same way as the first, except this time instead of 100 supply of Ultra/Queen/Hydra, I used 200 supply of Hydra/Roach/Corruptor against the 150 supply of Protoss, and did as much corrupting as I could with the Corruptors and focused Colossi as best I could, and the Protoss wins. Since the Protoss army is attack moved in both replays, lack of micro can be cancelled out as a common factor. If this isn't solid enough evidence that Zergs are tackling the "death ball" wrong in the late game, then nothing ever will be and Zergs should continue to complain about their race being underpowered. The upgrades I used were Roach speed, Hydralisk range and Colossus range. So your imaginable unit composition with unit tester "proof" is enough evidence for this to work? Thing is you can't just blindly take a unit composition. No zerg is going to get hydras and then ultras - he just die before that, so what should I use before I get ultras? Attack with roach/hydra and get crushed and then wait for my reinforcing ultras (who produces 5mins) to get my "perfect'' unit composition while protoss deathball is moving towards my main? You are just blindly looking at late game composition, but it's so hard to get there. Usually you got range upgrades for roaches and hydras, but in this case you need melee upgrades for ultras, right? So again it's not easy to transition from roach/hydra/corruptor into ultras.
All I'm suggesting is a late game composition which crushes Colo/VR/Stalker, an army that Zerg players are struggling with at the moment. I'm not saying how to get there or how to play until you get that composition, all I'm saying is that late game Zerg isn't as weak as Zerg players seem to be making it out to be if you can get the right composition.
|
People bash on him far too much, at least appreciate the fact that the composition is thought through, if you are not convinced about it to work then don't bother trying it out.
However, if you are at least convinced by the composition, try some custom games and figure a build order out how to get there.
I agree that this isn't finest strategy thread on the forum, but you guys are just bashing him for the sake of bashing. There are also people who just say zerg is underpowered and that the toss composition is imba (*cough* idra & artosis *cough*). At least he is thinking about countering it.
|
On February 21 2011 19:47 diLLa wrote:
People bash on him far too much, at least appreciate the fact that the composition is thought through, if you are not convinced about it to work then don't bother trying it out.
However, if you are at least convinced by the composition, try some custom games and figure a build order out how to get there.
I agree that this isn't finest strategy thread on the forum, but you guys are just bashing him for the sake of bashing. There are also people who just say zerg is underpowered and that the toss composition is imba (*cough* idra & artosis *cough*). At least he is thinking about countering it.
That's cool that he comes with new idea, but you should expect a lot of criticism if you just give a late game unit composition w/o any replays or transitioning or anything 
|
hmmmm was so effective.. but how to get there. Obviously tech up to hive as soon as possible, whilst at the same time taking at least two expansions and holding of the early/mid game protoss pushes.
:SSS if only!
|
HAHA i totally agree dusterr...How will we ever get gosu creep spread off a queen build!?!?!?!?! GG : )
|
Though not exactly what the OP posted, I've had success going roach/hydra/ultra. Here's a replay where I won head on against a colossi/void/stalker death ball (I was maxed and while he wasn't, but I did have 40 zerglings in my army that didn't do any damage).
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/143101-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
It's really nice not having to worry about force fields or having useless corruptors after the battle. The key to the effectiveness of this unit composition is using the ultras to soak up damage as you get a good surround.
But how to tech to ultras without dying mid game? I opened with a 5 roach rush and creep blocked his expo.. You get a huge economic advantage mid game and lets you tech to ultras quicker. I detail the strategy here
|
Im glad to see that more people are trying to incorporate queens into their plans
|
I like the idea. I would say that the limiting factor is the ultralisk build time. You would open queen/roach, transition to roach/queen/hydra, and then you could either a) transition to corruptor, as usual or b) try to delay with roach/hydra/queen and rush to ultras. The problem with a) is that you'll only build ultras after losing your maxed roach/hydra corruptor army, and they take FOREVER to build. In the meantime he may well roll your 3rd/4th base(s). The problem with b) is that you may not be able to hold stalker/collosus/sentry with just roach/hydra/queen, which you'll have to do to get ultras out in time.
That said, this composition does not look too bad if he opts for early air. It will delay his collosus push timing significantly enough that you could feasibly have ultras up in time, or close to in time. Also, you'll be totally fine pumping queens and hydras to fight his air harrass. I'll have to test it. I have a protoss buddy that likes to open forge FE into air, so I'll run a couple games.
|
The key is making a lot of Ultralisks. Once enough colossus get out, the Hydralisks will get fried to the bone and in order to NOT get your Hydralisks fried, you will need to make a LOT of Ultralisks. Because of this, you will need to get your fourth expansion.
Colossus/Void Ray will easily rip this build to shreds unless you can effectively use Tranfusion. In THAT case, a Protoss can easily make some High Templars and Feedback the queens, causing death for only 50 energy which then leaves Hydralisks and Ultralisks. Hydralisks will fall to the Colossus then and Ultralisks will get kited by the stalkers and such.
Of course, like any other Unit Compositon, this one has flaws. But I think that this composition is countered by just basic, standard unit compositon from the Protoss.
Granted, a Queen can easily shoot a Colossus or a Void Ray but the Colossus can just simply be moved back ever so slightly and the Void Rays can target the Ultralisks. Since Ultralisks fall so easily to Void Rays, Transfusion will have to be VERY effectively used.
Not to mention, Stalkers can easily kite the Ultralisks so maybe some fungal growth can be added.
I also think that in order to adapt to Void Rays you might need the Hydralisks CLOSER to the front lines, but then the colossus will simply shoot the Hydralisks, resulting in fried Hydra.
Another thing, this build is quite immobile. Say that you get a new expansion and a void ray comes and shoots it. It will take years for those Hydralisks to get to the expansion. You start to lose map control and before you know it the Protoss is outbasing you.
In short, this build is immobile (no map control) and is countered by the standard unit composition you can expect from a Protoss.
|
Seems like a cool composition, but seems extremely gas heavy, especially if you factor in melee/carapace upgrades. It's definitely not an early or mid-game composition, which means you'll need to transition out of Roach/Hydra/Corruptor into this once you're on 4+ bases, but a good Protoss will probably not let up his pressure long enough for you to radically change your composition. Creep spread will be great with so many Queens, but good Protoss are also very active about taking out tumors whenever they can get away with it. All it takes is a Stalker and an Observer. You can keep placing them because I'm sure you'll have plenty of Queen energy but that's extremely micro intensive, as is constantly transfusing Ultralisks that are taking focused Immortal fire.
I definitely think Ultralisks have a place in ZvP, I just don't know what it is yet. The ability to break force fields and annihilate Stalker/Colossi compositions can be beneficial, but it only takes a thin wall of Zealots and a handful of Immortals to reduce their effectiveness drastically. And with all the upfront costs (tech/upgrades) to make Ultralisks worth it, having to immediately switch away from them after one engagement seems like a net loss.
I like the though you put into the post though, and as an ex-WoW player I can appreciate the logic behind it  keep up the good work!
|
yeah, i mean it is good in theory, the only problems are that you need tons of creep, which takes away queen energy. It also requires all upgrades from the evolution chambers, which gets very expensive. it also is not a very quickly-replenishing army. when you lose those 10 queens, unless you are on 10 hatcheries it will take FOREVER to get them again.
|
God I hate it when lesser players throw out their theory crafting and state it as facts... This strategy will never work at high lvl because against a good protoss you wont have creepspread anywere near his base, and also, you must continuosly pump out queens in order to get the right amount in your "death ball" lategame which will suck mid game when u need to prevent the toss from getting his 3rd... Nice try but no banana
|
On February 23 2011 12:20 Skinnyowllegs wrote:
God I hate it when lesser players throw out their theory crafting and state it as facts... This strategy will never work at high lvl because against a good protoss you wont have creepspread anywere near his base, and also, you must continuosly pump out queens in order to get the right amount in your "death ball" lategame which will suck mid game when u need to prevent the toss from getting his 3rd... Nice try but no banana
You raise some valid points about creep spread and getting enough Queens but is it really necessary to call somebody a "lesser" player? He put a lot of effort into the original post and even if all that comes of this thread is somebody, somewhere decides to use Ultralisks more in ZvP, it's a positive thread on TL.
No need to be so negative. You pointed out some flaws, albeit the same ones that everyone else pointed out. Leave it at that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
