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Air upgrades in TvT, a rundown

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Icemind
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany570 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-19 15:13:12
February 15 2011 18:56 GMT
#1
So i recently watched Trumps stream as i do sometimes when i find the time, while he was playing a long drawn out TvT. During that i noticed him upgrading his air as well (which i liked) but going for air weapons over armor (which i didn't like).

So i wrote him a PM explaining why air armor should be prioritised when upgrading air in TvT (especially long drawn out games where you might bring in BCs) and also analysing air upgrades in TvT in general and since i put quite a bit of effort into it in the end i thought i might just as well post it here. The reasoning beeing that to my knowledge -and that of my use of the search funktion- this hasnt really been discussed/taken notice of and a lot of Terrans live still under the impression that weapon upgrades are preferable in TvT air too as they are generally in most situations (not all mind you) across the races.
So here is a copy of my writeup, if you find yourself in a long drawn out TvT with a tank viking basis this just might help you out.
It also counts for iEchoic's air/hellion TvT build, but on that he already mentioned in his own thread that air armor is preferable, he just didn't do the long boring analysis that iam doing further down.


-End of introduction, beginning of analysis-


Firstly lets take a look at viking fights, a viking gets +1 damage for each of his two attacks per upgrade, therefore the upgrades annihilate each other perfectly. You either gain 10% damage or take 10% less by other vikings per each upgrade. Furthermore you need 2 upgrades of each to actually make a difference in the amounts of attacks it takes to kill another viking (requiring 5 shots without upgrades; 4 shots with 2 attack upgrades and 6 shots with 2 armor upgrades. This is of course discounting any upgrades on the opponent which would just have to be substracted from your upgrade count).
Conclusion on Vikings
Therefore in terms of pure viking battles if your opponent doesnt upgrade his it would actually make no difference to get the third upgrades and would actually be preferable to go 2/2 instead therefore enabling your vikings to need one shot less and to take one more.

Now onward to why armor is preferable: In TvT there can be only three possible attackers on your vikings, discounting BCs since you can micro against those to stay out of range. Those three are Vikings, Marines and Thors. For the former as explained above it really doesnt matter which ones you take, but for the latter it very much does.
Both Thors and Marines are usually gonna attack you without your vikings shooting back (the occasions where you want a land fight against them are very limited) so you would want to get the armor already right here. Furthermore though both thors and marines suffer from opposing armor upgrades more than any other unit except lings and workers because of their 6 damage attacks. A single armor upgrade will reduce their damage by 16.6% therefore greatly increasing the survival rate of your vikings and (importantly since those get shot at even more especially when dropping) medivacs.

But thats more on a sidenote, the probably most important part are BCs.
In a viking versus BC scenario we can probably discount the BCs attack, he is just too easily kited so only armor upgrades will allow him to stay alive a little while longer.
But a marine versus BC scenario is quite common and this is where the armor upgrades really shine. An attack upgrade on the BC will increase his ground damage by 12.5 %, which certainly isnt bad (most upgrades increase the damage by ~10%), but just cant compare to the whopping 33% damage decrease that you get out of having an upgrade advantage in armor of 1 point over your opponents infantry weapons.
The numbers apply exactly the same with thors as well although that scenario is a lot less common and effective for the thor users thanks to the unit's costs.
If your upgrade levels are the same the upgrades will just annihilate each other perfectly again (with his armor negating your weapon and vice versa), but as is clearly visible in all the other scenarios air armor is clearly superior.
The effect gets even stronger if your upgrade advantage gets bigger giving you 50% further multiplicative damage decrease with a second armor upgrade and another 50% with the third (getting you down to about ~83.5% damage decrease)

In a BC versus BC scenario armor and weapon upgrades negate each other once again but an armor upgrade advantage will let yours survive 28 shots more whereas it would take only 18 shots less for an opposing battlecruiser, so armor is once again the superior choice.


I hope some of you found this helpful and if you for yourself did not please don't flame me but rather ignore me instead
tehemperorer
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2183 Posts
February 15 2011 19:13 GMT
#2
Cool post, makes sense
Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers.
Ponyo
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1231 Posts
February 15 2011 19:20 GMT
#3
So basically your explaining why air defense upgrades are better than attack. Yes makes tons of sense.
ponyo.848
underdawg
Profile Joined January 2011
United States399 Posts
February 15 2011 20:04 GMT
#4
but

1. you can't get air armor 1 and 2 at the same time. you could get attack 1 and armor 1.

2. focus firing, etc. makes these "1 less shot" things a lot less important, and more just about "get upgrades" because there's no way to calculate these sorts of things
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
February 15 2011 20:11 GMT
#5
This should be obvious without even really needing to explain: in TvT, every unit that can actually attack air uses multiple, but reasonably weak attacks. Thus, air should always prioritize armor before weapons.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Sek-Kuar
Profile Joined November 2010
Czech Republic593 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-15 20:21:25
February 15 2011 20:19 GMT
#6
I dont like using percentages, it only makes it confusing. Zealots gets 12,5% for attack upgrade - and kills zergling 33% faster...

Nice post, but next time Id like to see it w/o this symbol "%" posting only difference in shoots-to-kill
Scientists finally discovered what's wrong with the female brain: On the left side, there is nothing right, and on the right side, there's nothing left. [http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/213948/1/DJVibrejtr/]
Icemind
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany570 Posts
February 15 2011 23:55 GMT
#7
On February 16 2011 05:19 Sek-Kuar wrote:
I dont like using percentages, it only makes it confusing. Zealots gets 12,5% for attack upgrade - and kills zergling 33% faster...

Nice post, but next time Id like to see it w/o this symbol "%" posting only difference in shoots-to-kill


The problem is that on many occasions there will be more than one opposing unit type involved, thats why i generally try to include both percentages (for the general view with mixed units) and shot-difference
-AtRi-
Profile Joined December 2010
123 Posts
April 09 2011 17:27 GMT
#8
thanks - great post!
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
April 09 2011 21:42 GMT
#9
While armor may be better, keep in mind that weapons costs 50 minerals and gas less than armor when it comes to Terran ships-it's entirely possible that he was hovering around the 100/100 min/gas mark of extra but not the 150/150. And that 225/225 for level 2 feels exorbitant in my experience.

Once you're maxed, of course, armor should be prioritized, but once you're maxed you should be doubling up on the upgrades anyway.
CatNzHat
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1599 Posts
April 09 2011 21:55 GMT
#10
Simple reason to get armor: marines
Marine shoot fast and weak, they tend to be the ones dealing the most damage to your air units late game TvT (when you're upgrading air). Especially when trying to use BCs to break tank lines, you want to be able to kill lots of marines with your BCs, or tank a lot of damage from the marines while targeting tanks, possibly forcing and unsiege.
TvT late game costs are almost always negligible as you'll be sitting with your siege lines facing off while microing drop harass and expoing to every possible location on the map.
good post, a bit dragged out, but good none the less :D
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