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I would like to discuss the viability of a 1-1-1 build vs. Zerg as Protoss. I decided to try this build after seeing how well it could work when implemented as Terran, and after I did ample theory-crafting about the possibilities the build opens up.
I think primarily, the build would be one that puts the oh-so-important pressure on the Zerg through constant harassment that makes expanding safe and provides map control.
I've only done the build once so far, so I still plan on repeating it a lot and tweaking it as necessary, but it ended up being extremely effective. This may, however, only be due to my opponent and I being both in the Platinum league.
The general idea and how my match turned out is this: On most maps, you should be able to create a formidable wall with only a Gateway and a Cybernetics Core (I was playing on Lost Temple,) the gap being defended by 1 or 2 Zealots. This should be able to hold off most zergling all-ins or pushes. This wall could then be reinforced by either cannons or stalkers in order to prevent them from simply attacking your wall with impunity. (I opted for a few Stalkers to chase off scouting Overlords) You would then saturate your second gas while building a Robotics Facility and then a Stargate. By saving up Chronoboost after using it twice on your Nexus, you should have enough energy to Chronoboost an Immortal to counter early Roach pressure. I would also build a second Immortal, even if I have not yet encountered Roaches. At the same time, I would produce three, preferably four Phoenixes from my Stargate. Once I have my group of Phoenixes, I would use them to kill Queens/Overlords/Drones while scouting my opponents tech. If I see Roaches, then I keep my Immortals at my base to defend against any counter-attacks. If I do not, then I chronoboost a Warp Prism and bring the two Immortals with me to snipe tech buildings, drones, etc. while using Prism Micro to avoid the inevitable Zergling retaliation while killing Overlords and other targets with my Phoenixes. (I even brought in a single Void Ray to attack the main Lair, eventually destroying it with help from my Immortals.) If enough damage is done, more Gateways could be put down to produce a small Gateway army that would secure your natural for expansion. You will have then likely forced Hydralisks, which you can counter with a simple Support Bay for Colossi and then, ideally, be able to win with a Colossus/Gateway push.
My first try with the build was extremely effective, so I definitely plan on trying it multiple times to make adjustments as necessary. I will post this original replay and subsequent replays should the build continue to prove effective.
I would appreciate any feedback on the idea or anyone's personal experiences with trying it. If you do give it a try, please let me know how it worked out for you and whether or not you believe it could be a staple opening in PvZ.
Thank you for your time and consideration!
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Have you expanded out of this yet? Main problem like you said is lings, and the fact that it would take awhile to develop. Zerg can early expo and have lair by the time you have a useful amount of units.
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My Terran friend is particularly fond of this 1-1-1 when he randomly plays Protoss against the AI.
I really like the warp prism to immortal drop + void ray, might give it a shot
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have u encountered a 7RR against this build? cause i dont think you can get an immortal out that fast, and if u do it'd be way out numbered
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On January 26 2011 07:43 Skroach wrote:
Have you expanded out of this yet? Main problem like you said is lings, and the fact that it would take awhile to develop. Zerg can early expo and have lair by the time you have a useful amount of units.
Unfortunately, I've only played with the build once. (I'll provide the replay once I am on my own computer.) In that match, I was able to expand but my opponent was pretty passive in that he did not try to attack once I began my harass but rather tried to kill my Immortals with his Zerglings instead. I think the best thing might be to keep producing Zealots while doing the harass so you can combat a large amount of them. There may even be a place to squeeze in a +1 attack to make Zerglings less of an issue.
Your concern is valid though, once I've played a few more games with this build I'll let you know how expanding works out, hopefully I'll play against increasingly more experienced Zergs who will test the build out.
Thank you for your comment!
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On January 26 2011 07:56 WakingLife wrote:
have u encountered a 7RR against this build? cause i dont think you can get an immortal out that fast, and if u do it'd be way out numbered
I meant to mention 7RR in my post. I have not faced it yet, and I meant to ask if anyone might know the exact timings. I think you might be able to get one immortal out, but you're right, being outnumbered is the real issue. It may be necessary to build more Stalkers initially if you scout this kind of opening. I'll ask a Zerg friend of mine to try it out vs. the build and report the results.
Thanks for your feedback!
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Terrans do the 1-1-1 build because it gives them access to their entire tech tree. You simply cannot do this kind of build with Protoss. With Protoss you have to branch out either to robotics, templar, or air, usually everyone mixes up two of techs. In what you've described, you're going air units and an immortal drop, saying nothing about templar.
Technicalities aside, I feel this build is to resource intensive to hold early pressure against zerg, your first immortal to hold off roach pressure would come at the sacrifice of traditional defense with gateway units. If your opponent scouts you one basing they will very probably expand and tech up to hydralisk and render your expensive air units ineffective.
This build sounds like a slow air build. If you can do a wall off and attack with a few fast phoenixs and void ray and can snipe a queen and key tech structures, then you've got what many toss on the korean server are doing. I've done this myself against Zerg and after the queen is gone, gg.
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Calgary25980 Posts
Until you have replays dealing with various situations, this can't be a fully fleshed out strategy. Please test it and post some replays.
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This build won't work well at higher levels because you can't really pressure the zerg and he will out macro you. A better idea is to open with the phoenixes which you can use to pressure the zerg... then you can expand and drop down the robo whilst your expo is building (provided the zerg is not looking like going muta).
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The problem is that if you are a agaisnt a good zerg he will just keep expanding while scouting you and just make a counter of what are YOU doing. Zerg is really good at changing tech
You gotta force them to do the tech you want and then u can take control of the game.
I usually open with a fast phoenix play (around 4-5) harass (because that will FORCE hydras) and get some colossus +exp (thats your 1-1-1) so after my exp i shoudl have 3gates 1 starport and 2 robos pumping collossi
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On January 26 2011 08:04 Chill wrote:
Until you have replays dealing with various situations, this can't be a fully fleshed out strategy. Please test it and post some replays.
I absolutely agree and recognized that, I plan on trying it out plenty of times but just wanted to get feedback on the idea before I delve into it. No worries, I won't make any definitive assertions until I've put it through its paces!
Thanks for the feedback and reminder!
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I have experimented with this build a bit on ladder, Platinum level, however I find that it is weak against strong timing pushes. A good opponent will scout the amount of tech you have and try to push you.
I like to add another gateway or two before I push out, so that I can warp in some reinforcements when I get there with the warp prism and void ray.
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i think you would be unable to ever expand. you would have to much pressure from ling roach, or just ling. he wouldnt kill you becouse you have void rays, but you wouldnt be able to expand. so i dont think its very smart
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The thing is about this build is that it's good, but it's an offensive tech build that you turtle up in. That doesn't make sense. I mean if you're getting immortals you should attack. I would say keep 1-2 zealots plus 1-2 stalkers at base and attack with your immortals while using phoenix voidray harrass. Plus, stargate robo = very gassy. After that attack aforementioned, get an expansion(if the game's not already over). Great thought, but needs to be tested. And also, this is a bit too much turtle and may not be as good as other strats, though one you can add to your arsenal. THat's my thoughts on it
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Calgary25980 Posts
On January 26 2011 08:06 Defions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 08:04 Chill wrote:
Until you have replays dealing with various situations, this can't be a fully fleshed out strategy. Please test it and post some replays. I absolutely agree and recognized that, I plan on trying it out plenty of times but just wanted to get feedback on the idea before I delve into it. No worries, I won't make any definitive assertions until I've put it through its paces! Thanks for the feedback and reminder!
Yea, no problem, that's exactly why I didn't close it.
I just find sometimes I make plans like these and encounter many situations I didn't think about and get crushed. Looking forward to the reps.
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The more accurate version of 1-1-1 i think is gate->stargate->robotics
In the beginning I have good success rate by going 1 gate, stargate with VR, rest pheonix
Then expo, put down robotics/forge, and cannon+tech colossus
against ling rushes, it's 50/50, you really need to make good simcity and forcefields to pull this off
plus if you plan to expand to natural, defending against lings will be super hard
against 7rr, the VR/sentry will rape better than immortal/sentry, but first VR comes out at 5:45 mark
and 7rr arrives at your door as early as 5:15 mark, after first forcefield stalling, there is a short gap that micro is needed
as soon as first phoenix is out, scout zerg's base basically check for zerg's intensions
#1 evolution chamber but no lair
get ready to play double expo zerg plus massive ling attacks
#2 lair + den
obviously cannon + robo
#3 lair + spire
then i would say twilight concil+gateways, delay the robo
the problem i have is a passive zerg that does not attack but instead just do 3 things
#1 make corruptors, take air superiority
#2 expo themselves
#3 deny protoss 3rd expo
because without 3rd base, protoss is back to a situation like 4-gating a zerg
either micro really really good and gain advantage that way or loose
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United States7483 Posts
I've found that it works fairly well against terran in my games, but against zerg I feel I really need to expand first with 3 gates before getting the robo and the stargate in order to support them. A Colossus/void ray mix with a few gateway units is one hell of a deathball for zerg to deal with, if you can defend long enough to get it out and functional. My concern with it is how hard it is to replenish and reinforce.
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EPT
