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On January 24 2011 23:50 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +That's not my point. A max stalker army is incredibly weak, especially if you 1a it because stalkers deal shit damage. Perhaps stalkers were chosen because they have the ability to hit everything. Regardless, 1a'ing a stalker ball into master league isn't impressive. Master league is not impressive. My point was, is that stalkers were chosen because they will not be instantly negated at a low league level (like marines/lings), which applies to this experiment, as it specifically deals with getting out of low level leagues. Do you disagree with this?
I don't. But you could do that with practically any ranged unit, marines included.
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i think it was elky who said:
make units and rape ze fucker!
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I don't. But you could do that with practically any ranged unit, marines included.
And as I said, marines get instantly killed without micro against banelings/tanks/HT/collosus. You can blindly counter them. Stalkers can actually shoot, and kill, their counters when you have enough of them. Sure, if your opponent only builds seventeen banelings against your 200/200 marine ball, you will win, but if he builds 100/200 worth of banelings (200 banelings), and you can't split that entire marine ball into 101 little batches before he hits, you will lose your army.
Roaches/maruaders wont work, because you can get blind countered by air, unless you win a base trade (entirely possible, unless you're facing terran). Hydras could work, but stalkers are easier to access and defend with in the early game.
Edit: And I'm not saying it's impossible to get to diamond by just building marines/roaches, it would just be harder than doing it with stalkers. Which would pay off in the end, since you'd have to work harder to get up.
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^^ Who the hell uses banelings correctly in plat league? Any massable ground unit is "hard countered" by most of those options (collosus, tanks, etc).
On January 24 2011 21:36 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 20:52 TehForce wrote:
Of course i am implying some normale intelligence in gameplay, so i expect them to know that blue flame hellions are not the right way to fight mass marauder Although I completely agree with the OP, I think you just can't take this "normal intelligence" for granted. I have a (former) bronze-reallife-friend with whom I like to 2v2 - the first thing I had to teach him was to frickin a-move instead of rightclick. His macro was "fine" after a week or so, but it doesn't matter if your superior army just runs around instead of fighting. While macro may get you into Diamond, I feel that for getting from Bronze to Silver or Gold it's mostly much more fundamental things than macro (even if it seems hard to believe that these even exist). To put it this way: Gold players usually have horrible macro, but they must do "something" right that puts them above Bronze and Silver players.
Most lower level players enter a game with one plan in mind. They're going to make a unit, or a specific comp of units + Show Spoiler +Okay, okay, one kind of unit
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^^ Who the hell uses banelings correctly in plat league? Any massable ground unit is "hard countered" by most of those options (collosus, tanks, etc).
1a isn't hard, bronze league players can do that.
Stalkers don't instantly dissapear against tanks. They take four shots each to kill. Sure, you have splash, but unless the person thinks to right click four tanks on one stalker (so as to avoid overkill), which surely, you can agree is harder than attack moving banelings into marines, you won't lose all of your stalkers by running into a tank line the instant that you do.
Marauders could do this, but again, it's not nearly as one sided as marines versus high templar, nor banelings.
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back in the beta where rally units used to atk move.. i would make like 5 barracks with reactor rallying to enemy base and killing them even without any control or looking at their base sometimes... wished that still existed..
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On January 25 2011 00:14 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +^^ Who the hell uses banelings correctly in plat league? Any massable ground unit is "hard countered" by most of those options (collosus, tanks, etc). 1a isn't hard, bronze league players can do that. Stalkers don't instantly dissapear against tanks. They take four shots each to kill. Sure, you have splash, but unless the person thinks to right click four tanks on one stalker (so as to avoid overkill), which surely, you can agree is harder than attack moving banelings into marines, you won't lose all of your stalkers by running into a tank line the instant that you do. Marauders could do this, but again, it's not nearly as one sided as marines versus high templar, nor banelings.
You're being naive for the sake of arguing.
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You're being naive for the sake of arguing.
How so?
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On January 25 2011 00:28 goiflin wrote:How so?
I already pointed that out. 1a'd stalkers are answered by most tech responses. No more or less then other t1 units.
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pretty sure you can't just "outmacro" a 6/7/8 pool, dt rush, or banshees.
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I already pointed that out. 1a'd stalkers are answered by most tech responses. No more or less then other t1 units
And I pointed out that you're wrong. And you haven't said anything to counteract my point, besides "lol plat players dunno how to move units lol", which is untrue.
I'll try to get to diamond on marines only, then, and see how it goes.
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On January 25 2011 00:42 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +I already pointed that out. 1a'd stalkers are answered by most tech responses. No more or less then other t1 units And I pointed out that you're wrong. And you haven't said anything to counteract my point, besides "lol plat players dunno how to move units lol", which is untrue. I'll try to get to diamond on marines only, then, and see how it goes.
I'm wrong because tanks don't one shot stalkers? This thread has taken a turn for the worst.
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I'm wrong because tanks don't one shot stalkers? This thread has taken a turn for the worst.
Yeah, that was my point. Stalkers don't instantly dissapear against tanks. If you build enough stalkers, you will kill tanks with them. If you build enough marines, they will still die to banelings/HT/colossus.
Like I said, I'll see how right you are by trying this with terran instead of protoss first. I'll do twenty games as terran, then twenty games as toss, and see which matchup has a higher win ratio. If you're right, it should be the same, or nearly so.
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On January 25 2011 00:48 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +I'm wrong because tanks don't one shot stalkers? This thread has taken a turn for the worst. Yeah, that was my point. Stalkers don't instantly dissapear against tanks. If you build enough stalkers, you will kill tanks with them. If you build enough marines, they will still die to banelings/HT/colossus. Like I said, I'll see how right you are by trying this with terran instead of protoss first. I'll do twenty games as terran, then twenty games as toss, and see which matchup has a higher win ratio. If you're right, it should be the same, or nearly so.
I Don't think the point of this is "one unit can win any game" it's to focus on your macro.. make throw in some marauders, tanks and medivacs?
I'm sure you can figure it out.
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Why do you need to target fire Stalkers with four Siege Tanks to avoid overkill? The AI in SC2 does that for you. It's the reason Siege Tanks are so effective even with, what, 25 less damage than their BW counterparts? I played the experiment for a bit with Marines only and met the same level of success, literally letting them A-move at Banelings, High Templar, and whatever else I went up against and while losing a ton of supply, it was pretty much only half my army in exchange for the entirety of theirs. The hardest time I've had was throwing away dozens of Marines while knowing my opponent was going Colossus, but even then all I had to do was keep making Marines.
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On January 25 2011 00:14 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +^^ Who the hell uses banelings correctly in plat league? Any massable ground unit is "hard countered" by most of those options (collosus, tanks, etc). 1a isn't hard, bronze league players can do that. Stalkers don't instantly dissapear against tanks. They take four shots each to kill. Sure, you have splash, but unless the person thinks to right click four tanks on one stalker (so as to avoid overkill), which surely, you can agree is harder than attack moving banelings into marines, you won't lose all of your stalkers by running into a tank line the instant that you do. Marauders could do this, but again, it's not nearly as one sided as marines versus high templar, nor banelings.
Instant hit attacks do not overkill in SC2, so you do not need to do anything to avoid overkill with tanks.
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marineking almost won gsl with marines only, i think diamond should be doable!
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I Don't think the point of this is "one unit can win any game" it's to focus on your macro.. make throw in some marauders, tanks and medivacs?
I'm sure you can figure it out.
The point of the experiment was to show how important macro is, in comparison to unit composition and micro. He ignored both of these aspects. My point was, is, that stalkers are one of the few units you can do this experiment with. He argued that it is no more or less viable to do this with marines. No tanks, no marauders, no medivacs, just like the experiment, I will only build marines as a parallel to stalkers, and see how it goes. I'm not saying it's impossible; I'm just saying it's going to be alot harder than doing it with stalkers.
Instant hit attacks do not overkill in SC2, so you do not need to do anything to avoid overkill with tanks.
I was under the impression that the AI would spread shots evenly so that it avoids overkill. My point in focusing the tanks was to take down a stalker instantly. If you right click twelve tanks on one stalker, do they all fire, or does it only allocate as many tanks as it'll take to kill the stalker instantly?
In the long run, this would be a bad idea, but my point was, was to show how much longer it would take to cause a stalker ball to dissapear, in comparison to attack moving a bunch of banelings at a marine ball.
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What about the TvZ matchup, if your playing Terran? You have to micro against banelings, no matter what your skill level is.
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If I were to do this "macro challenge" as any race, this is what my plan will be.
Protoss: 3-gate robo followed by expand. Make lots of warpgates + stalkers then a-move.
Terran: 3-rax expand into MMM a-move.
Zerg: 14-hatch into roach/hydra a-move.
The OP is not claiming that this pure macro style will win every game. Rather, the OP claims that this will yield a 50% win ratio against diamond players (i.e. get into diamond). The whole point of the exercise is to show that concentrating purely on macro will yield very decent results. In fact, just by doing the above will make a non-diamond a much better player.
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EPT
