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Hey TL,
So I just got done with ladder and managed to win three out of six games. My wins include a 2500 Z, 2300 P and a 1800 T. All macro style games and all with the same results. However, my three losses came from losing within 7 minutes. In fact, at the 7 minute mark every game. I lost to two diamonds and a platinum player - all of them protoss.
I don't like four gating (in fact I don't know a single four gate build order). Is there anyway to stop a four warp gate push without four warp gating? Should I just pump out a ton of sentries and hold until i have a critical mass?
Thanks!
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forcefield + chronoboosting an immortal out.
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Posting a replay would help other people figure out how to improve your play instead of just saying "4gate is hard to beat. What do I do?
How are you opening up?
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Generally one gate robo. I'll upload a replay here in a second.
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I have similar issues to the OP but onli on a map like scrap station with a rediculously big ramp.
I like going 2 gate robo observer and see whats going on. If i see a 4 gate is easy enough to drop another gate and use ff while u wait for immortal and 3rd gaate to kick in.
however on scrap station in p v p i basically find that impossible u cant keep double fing that ramp and u dont have the time. While you can hold of the initial wave with some micro and stuff, eventually u'll get over run simply because ur being out produced and ur 3rd gate isnt up and immortals come out so slowly.
i've started to 4 gate on scrap station myself or at least 3 gate expand in the event that i may need to go to 4 gates.
on other maps ff will hold off long enough.
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The main problem evident in the replay was your lack of sentry at your ramp. You needed to go stalker->sentry. By having 2 stalkers you had no way to stop him at the ramp, which is key when you go 3gate robo to hold the 4gate. You also could have had the sentry out a little faster by cancelling it and switching to warpgate instead of letting it build. Bottom line is sentries should be your first priority gateway unit in early PvP. You need one as soon as possible.
You also need to scout better. Your probe left way too early, and he only had 2 zealots on his base at the start...which you could have kited and either forced him to delay the 4gate a bit or at least have some more knowledge that it was coming.
On a short rush distance map like Steppes you're gonna have a hard time holding with a 3gate robo build regardless. But if you had gotten that sentry out in time and gotten the first forcefield down in time you would have been able to hold with a second sentry + the first immortal.
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I find 3 gate robo holds it off OK.
If you can scout 4-gate (saving chrono, 1 gas, etc.) then you don't need obs at all. Just get immortal first.
My personal feeling is that 1 or 2 gate robo would not give you enough gateway units to hold if they plyon under your ramp. One little slip and gateway units warp into your base.
With 3 gate robo, I like to make FF not to keep troops out permanently but to trap half their army above the ramp when they run up, this way you have numerical superiority and can crush their units.
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Thanks friz and dan. Definitely appreciate the advice.
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forcefield + chronoboosting an immortal out.
Um no, because then he can easily get zealots instead.
OP, what "counters" 4 gate is basically any kind of early pressure. As in, just attack him with some early units. If he did the all-in 4gate then any kind of early unit will kill/delay him. If he's doing the "economical" 4 gate then you should go with a 2gate to kill whatever small force he may have.
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There are two general schools of thought.
1) Four gate is holdable with 3 gate robo
2) with a pylon at base of ramp it actually isn't.
In any case it's imperative you go sentry first. Three gate robo will always have problems against a four gate, but when numbers get large you should win.
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there are some maps where you are force to go four gate though like Scrap Station where the ramp is just too big to FF but 3 gate robo tends to hold it...I'm not saying it will be easy but it's doable...just keep your composure and be very reactive
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Something you should try is just 4gating faster, learn the build order. Honestly it's a strong build and can be really good for earl-mid game pressure in PvP which at this point is a shit storm and something you're going to have to deal with. 4gate is the standard in PvP. I'd say make an attempt at mastering the 4gate something alogn the lines of:
9lon
13gate
14gas
16lon
18core
18-core is done get your last 3 gates going
cut probes at 24
build a proxy at their base while gates build
4stalkers
4lots push out
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^^ He said he doesn't want to 4gate.
1gate robo and 2gate robo will result in a build order loss. 3gate robo and 4gate work. Forge DT works too as a hard counter if not scouted, and used against the all-in variant.
The best idea is to double gas early, go zealot -> stalker -> sentry -> sentry -> forcefield while you can, without letting a single unit up - splitting their army is a horrible idea since the stalkers can shoot up your ramp; and also if the warp midramp you have to pull back and continue FF until you get immortals out to go with your army. You'll want heavy zealot counts to push them back.
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Here is a build that i have been using with great success 3 Gate forge
Basically you 1 gate at your main, proxy two more gates near his base and make a forge at home. Rally all zealots and bring along two probes to cannon his mineral line. Normally you will have 3 zealots at his base right when his stalker pops so he has to either deal with your zealots or deal with the cannons. Either way its a win win for you. I'll post a few reps in a sec.
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On January 14 2011 14:21 Abstinence wrote:
^^ He said he doesn't want to 4gate.
1gate robo and 2gate robo will result in a build order loss. 3gate robo and 4gate work. Forge DT works too as a hard counter if not scouted, and used against the all-in variant.
The best idea is to double gas early, go zealot -> stalker -> sentry -> sentry -> forcefield while you can, without letting a single unit up - splitting their army is a horrible idea since the stalkers can shoot up your ramp; and also if the warp midramp you have to pull back and continue FF until you get immortals out to go with your army. You'll want heavy zealot counts to push them back.
Um...if you do FF their army in half at the ramp, you don't put your units right next to the cliff like a total idiot where his whole army can shoot at you. You can actually shoot at units trapped above the ramp without going into the range of the stalkers below the ramp. The point is to split his army into two to achieve numerical superiority and when your immortal comes out you can blast away his stalkers without fear of getting focus-fired down (keep your own zeals next to your stalkers/immortal and don't let them run around the ramp and get shot at by the stalks below). That said you need to be good at microing the battle while remembering to renew your FF or else his whole army will come up. The thing to watch for is that by giving your enemy vision of your base, he can warp in units as well, but you should be able to hold with 3 gate robo's worth of units...
Of course, you can force-field endlessly too, I just prefer to crush half his army right there instead of waiting...
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EPT
