EPT[Q] Vikings ground mode?
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Karl Maka
Canada55 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
their not that weak if you got a decent number anyway. | ||
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majestouch
United States395 Posts
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Carras
Argentina860 Posts
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GaryBrackett
Bulgaria106 Posts
 P+ Show Spoiler + Liquid_Brackett | ||
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ckcornflake
United States53 Posts
On December 22 2010 08:40 majestouch wrote: in tvt you can land vikings on siege tanks and they will do a little damage and the enemy siege tanks will do firendly fire to their own tanks, also, you can do harrass around the map etc Definitely. If your opponent is holding a position far from his production structures you can land about 10 vikings kill a startport or maybe a few reactors and really hinder his air unit production. You can usually lift off and fly away before he can do any damage to the vikings. | ||
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endline
100 Posts
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sikyon
Canada1045 Posts
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
Vikings have the same hp and are armored but have 0 armor. | ||
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ShootingStar
17 Posts
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OriginalBeast
United States709 Posts
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
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k43r
Poland112 Posts
I don't see use of thsi skill. Vikings are very slow, so it's hard to use them as harass. | ||
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
As a ground unit, marines and marauders are infinitely better, and they can be flown about with dropships. Vikings are not that much more mobile, and they are considerably weaker and more expensive. Use for air to air only except in emergencies. Really, Blizzard dresses the viking up as being versatile but it's really one of the most specialist units in the game. | ||
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Karl Maka
Canada55 Posts
vikings are good for harass and tank killing THNX | ||
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QQmonster
Canada240 Posts
Especially if you force the zerg to make a crapload of corruptors, you can just land the vikings and then concentrate on a ground attack. Other than that they're good for 1) helping in a fight after all the enemies air units are dead, 2) good for harrassing | ||
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CoSyN
United States122 Posts
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QQmonster
Canada240 Posts
On December 22 2010 15:38 CoSyN wrote: On small maps such as Scrap Station where an air army is ideal, I like to wall-off my ramp and tech straight to vikings (with the occasional production of some marines or tanks). After I get my first two, I build reactors on my two starports and then continuously pump them out. Once I have a decent amount, I fly them to my opponent's base and harass his eco. Then I push out with my ground army and do a two-pronged attack. This can work especially well against Zerg as Vikings can really distract the main army while your ground moves in (or the other way around). You should give it a try. It's fun! The best part about vikings is they're a lot like mutas. You can harrass, but then they can also join the main army when it's show time. They're a neat little unit that I think will be used more in the future for their ground mode once harrass techniques and timings get figured out. | ||
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TheUberMango
United States77 Posts
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Conrose
437 Posts
On December 22 2010 09:25 k43r wrote: I do viking drops. You need to land vikings, put them in medivacs and dorp them on opponent base. ;D joke I don't see use of thsi skill. Vikings are very slow, so it's hard to use them as harass. It's a great way of messing with a zerg player's head when they scout what they suspect to be a large MM drop only to find that it's actually an attack meant to supply block them in a hurry while also quickly sniping the Queen/s that would otherwise have done well at chasing them away. Get as many Drones as you can get away with while your Medivacs head back to support your MM ball. Once the Zerg ground comes by, lift off and hunt yourself some overlords. Not much left to deter you with the Queen instagibbed. | ||
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Xylarthen
United States137 Posts
On December 22 2010 09:41 ledarsi wrote: Really, Blizzard dresses the Viking up as being versatile but it's really one of the most specialist units in the game. I cannot disagree enough with that. I don't think Blizzard "dressed" the Viking up as versatile. I played BW up until about 2001, and the Wraith and Scout were not "versatile" because they could attack ground targets as well, they were AA units with a perk, cloak and speed respectively that just happened (with some thought) to be able to attack ground as well. The Viking has strong air in the redesign of SC2, and the perk is range at the cost of the transition to kinda effective ground damage. Then never claim it's versatile, they never did before. It can do what it can do. If I didn't make my point well enough for anyone disagreeing with me, is the Corruptor versatile because it can morph into a Brood Lord and attack the ground? Not in the same ballpark as a Marine, Stalker or Mutalisk is in their ability to attack both ground and air. This isn't to say there is not a hard counter to pretty much everything or better playing can't get around, but it has been said above that they can harass, but the ground mode is really if they are not needed to do their primary purpose, which is AA with the perk of being behind the main conflict due to range or kiting in the same regard. If anyone thinks I made ledarsi's point I simply believe Blizzard had no intention of secretly or subliminally making the Viking versatile to those who were smart enough to see it, I believe they used the same formula as before from SC1 and retailored a unit to fit differently into the new metagame. I agree with him that the unit is specialized, but not that Bliz tried to make it anything but, that's like saying they thought Zealots would be different now that they have charge instead of speed. | ||
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bluesoup
Macedonia107 Posts
There was one game on delta where i used my vikings in TvT as mutas. My opponent went pure bio and fast expoed to both his back and forward natural while skipping turrets. Land vikings in one of those, he will 1a run his bio there. Lift before he gets there and land on the other (short air distance, long run for the bio). He overstimmed, lost too much time dealing with my vikings and than he saw the tanks siege in front of his base while he was chasing vikings... gg. Sadly tank/viking is no longer so viable in TvT after last round of patches... | ||
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DyEnasTy
United States3714 Posts
On December 22 2010 08:42 GaryBrackett wrote: vikings are really good at dethin stuff like DT's/HT's when in Ground Mode, also with upgrades they rly strong P+ Show Spoiler + Liquid_Brackett I saw your posts in another thread. Why do you have "Liquid_Brackett" in a spoiler in every post??? | ||
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
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thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
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AndAgain
United States2621 Posts
Stalker DPS: Vs light 6.94 Vs armored 9.72 To be fair, it probably says more about how weak stalkers are, rather than how strong landed vikings are. /QQ. | ||
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pirsq
Australia145 Posts
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
The goliath could attack air and ground without a lengthy transition period, and also was a more effective generalist anti-air unit in the first place, where the viking is only effective against armored air, and gets crushed by mutalisks. From brood war the terran lost the goliath, the wraith, and the valkyrie, and only got the thor and viking in return. I suppose you could include the banshee since it got the wraith's cloak, but it has no anti air so whatever. The thor got the valkyrie's splash, but its dps is terrible. The viking is more similar to the wraith than the goliath in a lot of ways, as you said, because it is largely an anti-air unit, with the perk of occasionally being used to attack ground units. However its ground dps is quite bad, and it's very fragile and expensive on par with air units, where beefier and higher-damage ground only units will obliterate it when it lands. The thor is more similar to the goliath in a lot of ways, except its ground attack is HUGE and its air attack is dreadful, pretty much the opposite of the old school goliath. | ||
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Silmakuoppaanikinko
799 Posts
As in air mode, the problem with vikings is not their low dps, but their low hp. Vikings are high dps / low hp units, like dark templar. So if you land, do damage, and get out before they the enemy reacts to kill them, it's a favourable deal. They kill stuff pretty fast, they just die pretty fast too. | ||
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BC.KoRn
Canada567 Posts
1) When spotting vulnerable workers. 2) Base building harass to split up your opponents army and killing off a few depots/pylons if your lucky. 3) In close battles when the opposing player does not have any sort of air threat left it might be a good idea to land the Vikings to help tilt the battle in your favour. 4) Killing enemy scouts parked at towers. On December 22 2010 08:40 majestouch wrote: in tvt you can land vikings on siege tanks and they will do a little damage and the enemy siege tanks will do firendly fire to their own tanks, also, you can do harrass around the map etc | ||
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ThumperSD
United States333 Posts
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
Against armored air vikings are excellent. Against light air and anything on the ground they are terrible. Get almost any other unit instead to fight those types of targets. | ||
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sk4rsn1k
Germany25 Posts
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Silmakuoppaanikinko
799 Posts
On December 22 2010 20:56 ledarsi wrote: Well, air units as a rule have less dps for cost, obviously because they're less manevourable, did you know a Zergling has more dps than a mutalisk to its primary target? The viking ground dps is also higher than the corruptor dps against massive targets, not counting corruption. Corruptor has 200 hp though.As Silmakuoppaanikinko said, the problem is the viking's hp. Their dps is actually acceptable in absolute terms, although it's bad for cost. For 150 minerals and 75 gas you get the equivalent of 1.5 unstimmed marines on the ground, in a package with less survivability than a marauder (but more than 2 marines, granted). Against armored air vikings are excellent. Against light air and anything on the ground they are terrible. Get almost any other unit instead to fight those types of targets. Viking ground dps is pretty good for cost I'd say. Its hp is just quite low. What I've always wondered though is this 'paper airplane' thing, I mean the phoenix has 180 points including shield. THat's almost as high a a corruptor, the warp prism also has more than the viking, so why isn't the viking a 'paper airplane' The phoenix also has more than the banshee. Methinks that the term is more used for things that simply look fragile cosmetically, instead of a term reserved for actual game stats. | ||
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TheGiz
Canada708 Posts
Generally though I have no respect for Vikings, especially on the ground. Terrans don't ground them properly I think. They should integrate them with their main army when their opponent gives up the air. Most of the time I'll see useless Vikings flying around and then get grounded too late as an afterthought, or committed too long to some harass. Viking ground mode should be used to kill a Probe line and get the hell out of there, not linger trying to destroy a 1000/1000 Nexus. When they have nothing to kill they should be a part of the main army, not flying around aimlessly or grounded to help after the army has been destroyed. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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deathray797
196 Posts
-you can pump more marines because you (can) have more reactors less tech labs on barracks -vikings have higher dps vs zerglings and banelings than marauders without stim (with stim im not sure, but keep in mind that stim deals damage to marauders), making them more efficient vs both zerglings and banelings than marauders -i havent confirmed this but vikings LOOK fatter than marauders so its probably harder to get a surround on them -this isnt really a benefit but i just want to mention you can repair vikings so instead of medivac healing 2 of the 3 units you have (marine marauder) you have scv repairing 2 of the 3 units you have (tank viking) however the cons: -vikings cost more.. obviously -fewer medivacs because you need the vikings soo yea. additionally, after the match i asked kawaii if he thought the composition was good and he said no so... tell me what u guys think | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
Due to their mechanic they often choose were the fight take place and small units coming in a line etc is a good fight. If you played brood war they can be treated as wraiths when fighting. | ||
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Mr_Kyo
United States269 Posts
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Sv1
United States204 Posts
As a supporter role vikings would be in smaller numbers, your 6-8 vikings to deal with colossus or brood lords. As my or an army staple unit. Landing them to support tanks/hellions isn't all that bad. They fire fast, should you upgrade them they get decent damage (but that's still rare). They're basically expensive hydras with some more hp. You can get a decent viking count off of 2 base, but you'll cut into any barracks units if you planned on making them. Frustratingly enough though I believe they are the only "armored" classified unit that doesn't come with +1 base armor. Someone previously had suggested dropping 4 from a medivac, I'll have to give that a try. I found out that you could do that by accident and laughed at how silly that seems (what happens if the pilot hits the switch inside the medivac!!!). Given how clumsy their landing mode can be, just think. 6 seconds of an attack are spent landing/taking off. Not terribly ideal. 4 Vikings though do pretty well against an unsuspecting mineral line. | ||
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Mensab
United States27 Posts
Best to have them escort drops, or snipe overlords, really. But if the opponent is foolish enough to leave that mineral line undefended, hey why not. Keep in mind that if the opponent has an abundance of workers, he can easily take out a few vikings with them. (Yeah viking ground mode is that bad.) | ||
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QQmonster
Canada240 Posts
If a protoss makes a stargate and pumpes out a handful of void rays/carriers and I make vikings to respond, my left over vikings will supplement my ground army substantially considering the protosses ground fleet will be much weaker due to the investment in air. The key here is that vikings are a ground AND air investment at the same time, a very flexible and versatile unit. | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
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Faze.
Canada285 Posts
On December 23 2010 04:22 XXXSmOke wrote: In TvZ you can actully reverse the roles and have the vikings deal with the lings and soak up the blings while your marines rape the mutas Yup, have only 1 viking drop in front of your marines, it takes like 5 or 6 (or maybe more) banelings to kill 1 viking, and that saves many marines, well worth the sacrifice. But only works on poorly controled banelings, players who use banelings a lot will know to right click move their banelings in a seperated control group until they have a good positioning. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Their biggest weakness are the ground to ground anti tank units though. | ||
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Severus_
759 Posts
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jnkw
Canada347 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
That said, they do roughly as much DPS as marines, which is good (though not for cost I suppose). However, despite being 'bad' against zerglings, they do okay in a bind against small numbers. In a rock papper scissors situation, landing Vikings is worthless. But in the real game, where mobility is a big issue, Vikings are a great way to deal with a small number of lings doing a runby, they are great at harassment, and can add much needed DPS with your army or drop when there is little opposition, but you need to do a lot of damage. Landing vikings to fight or on tanks is usually a sign of you being ahead anyways, and isn't necessary but can definitely seal a lead, ie already having air control in TvT so landing on opponents tanks. | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
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Mr_Kyo
United States269 Posts
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On December 23 2010 05:51 link0 wrote: Vikings transform far too slowly. That's the point of the earlier suggestion to load them into medivacs instead. It is easier for 3 medivacs to slip past the opponent's notice than 12 flying vikings. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
My second favorite unit behind reapers. In my epic 23-1 4v4 RT record I 80% of the time mass vikings for harassing or fighting air lol In solo, I've actually won games where zerg put buildings in main and blocked in a little area, dropped two vikings and got a queen and workers, guy left game lol | ||
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Kudo
United States31 Posts
On December 22 2010 09:01 OriginalBeast wrote: its basically used for harass... but did you know that you can put landed vikings in a medivac drop them and immediately fly the medivac away, after the vikings you damage they can transform back into flight mode and leave on their own, thats how you get creative with a landed viking maximizing its usefulness. lol at this comment. Why don't you do this. FLY the vikings, land them, harass, and then fly away? Why waste a drop ship to carry vikings.... I mean, if you are in a position where viking transform is too slow, you are probably not going to do any damage anyways, and lose your drop to boot. I'm pretty sure stimmed rines/rauders are much better, and have much higher survivability. If anything, you should be using those medivacs to simultaneous drop elsewhere. For the most part, I find vikings to be useless. Vikings are only good when they can't get hit. I'd take medivacs over vikings anyday. | ||
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Manjix
Malaysia10 Posts
On December 23 2010 12:37 Kudo wrote: lol at this comment. Why don't you do this. FLY the vikings, land them, harass, and then fly away? Why waste a drop ship to carry vikings.... I mean, if you are in a position where viking transform is too slow, you are probably not going to do any damage anyways, and lose your drop to boot. I'm pretty sure stimmed rines/rauders are much better, and have much higher survivability. If anything, you should be using those medivacs to simultaneous drop elsewhere. For the most part, I find vikings to be useless. Vikings are only good when they can't get hit. I'd take medivacs over vikings anyday. It's the other way round, pick up with medivacs and fly away instead of transforming. You pick up Vikings with Medivacs FASTER than transforming them. Besides, dropping them with Medivacs CAN be FASTER than transforming them, a pro can drop AND move at the same time. Instead of allowing your opponent to "Oh, the Vikings are transforming, I gotta run", you show a Medivac and start dropping those Vikes, to attack them BEFORE they could even respond. Besides, Vikings are actually very good as a ground unit. They do decent DPS and they are armored. Given that you're at a food advantage, you could land those Vikes to increase your ground army size. Lastly : Vikings make Overlords QQ. | ||
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MrMoist
United States72 Posts
DO NOT LISTEN TO ANYONE THAT SAYS THAT DROPPING VIKINGS ON TANKS IS A GOOD IDEA. Unless the tank count is like less than 3 and they're completely balled up, which is VERY unlikely assuming the fact that by the time you have enough vikings, they'll have a large number of siege tanks. | ||
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Sv1
United States204 Posts
On December 23 2010 13:51 MrMoist wrote: NO NO NO NO NO NO DO NOT LISTEN TO ANYONE THAT SAYS THAT DROPPING VIKINGS ON TANKS IS A GOOD IDEA. Unless the tank count is like less than 3 and they're completely balled up, which is VERY unlikely assuming the fact that by the time you have enough vikings, they'll have a large number of siege tanks. I agree somewhat, but it's a judgment call. Sometimes dropping a viking or two on balled up tanks will be enough to force the out of seige which could be a quick stim-direct a attack on the tanks. Trading a viking for a tank I think is pretty much in the viking's favor. | ||
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Komsa
United States99 Posts
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Sek-Kuar
Czech Republic593 Posts
On December 22 2010 08:40 freetgy wrote: well you can harass with it on undefended expos, imho it is a pretty interesting ability. their not that weak if you got a decent number anyway. More you have weaker they are. They are about as huge as immortals, you often cant land more than 3 or 5-7 in open field battles. Getting more than 5 for harass is just wrong, then it takes like 5 seconds to find landing spot for them. Can be considered sacrificing, unless there is nothing to fight back. | ||
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CortoMontez
Australia608 Posts
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ensis
Germany340 Posts
and just scout and clear watchtowers or kill off pylons. maybe harrassment is an option, but its not that good of an idea i think. | ||
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Silmakuoppaanikinko
799 Posts
On December 23 2010 20:35 ensis wrote: A viking does 12 dps against whatever. A stalker 6.94 against light and 9.72 versus armoured.they are almost as strong as one stalker and only 25 gas more expensive, so they arent even half bad. and just scout and clear watchtowers or kill off pylons. maybe harrassment is an option, but its not that good of an idea i think. The point is more that a viking has 120 health and a stalker has 160. Viking dps, in either mode, is great, their hp is just shamefully low. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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Silmakuoppaanikinko
799 Posts
On December 23 2010 23:28 Antisocialmunky wrote: A +3 stalker still has a dps of 11.8055556 against armoured, whaddayaknow, a stalker can never out-dps a viking.Except you prolly won't have upgrades on the viking. People who say that vikings have low dps are out of their mind, in either mode vikings are high dps / low hp units, the stalker is sort of the inverse. The reason Vikings lose to a lot of units is their low health and 0 armour, not their dps. Which makes them great for taking out workers in high speed, and then lifting off and flying away before the other can shoot them down. It's the same with air, for cost, their dps is insane. But they have sooo little hp. They actually do much more dps against a phoenix than the reverse, but the phoenix wins because it doesn't have 120 hp. I never got why vikings aren't called paper airplanes. | ||
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
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eatpraylove
United States53 Posts
* Dropping onto balled-up tanks * Dropping onto undefended mineral lines * Adding them to a ground army for a little extra firepower. Plus, it's funny to watch them waddle around--like March of the Penguins or something. However, I don't think I've ever seen a high-level player do any of those things so I sure as hell am not going to recommend any of them. Anyone got any replays or videos of such? | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
0 armor and 0 self-healing and extremely slow speed in both modes. | ||
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