EPTGlad to see you didnt quit protoss for zerg like you said you were. Protoss is much more fun.
[D] Early PvZ timing push tactics - Page 3
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
Glad to see you didnt quit protoss for zerg like you said you were. Protoss is much more fun. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 03 2010 06:55 Jayrod wrote: iamke nailed it 100%. I dont think its wise to come up with a specific build order. Relative timing will get you where you need to be as long as you know what your scouting and how to respond. Dont go double stalker if you scout early ling speed, etc. Glad to see you didnt quit protoss for zerg like you said you were. Protoss is much more fun. I'm still on the fence. I'm better at Protoss because I can macro and execute builds cleanly, but Zerg feels stronger (against P and Z--I think P is stronger vs T). Now that I understand PvZ better from the Zerg perspective, I figured I'd give it another shot from the Protoss side to see what I can come up with. After all, I had finally figured out some fun ways to play PvP. | ||
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Monk___
United States123 Posts
On December 03 2010 07:09 kcdc wrote: I'm still on the fence. I'm better at Protoss because I can macro and execute builds cleanly, but Zerg feels stronger (against P and Z--I think P is stronger vs T). Now that I understand PvZ better from the Zerg perspective, I figured I'd give it another shot from the Protoss side to see what I can come up with. After all, I had finally figured out some fun ways to play PvP. try out the 10 gate pressure transition to 4 gate and let me know how it works for you. I'm finding if I get good pressure and he is unable to scout inside my base a 4 gate rolls them. If they are aware though just throwing down the expo works well 2 and I'm not far behind cause he was making units and not drones. | ||
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aghull
46 Posts
As long as I get my core and gas all going while i micro the push I can transition well into a 2nd push when warpgate finishes. It's a great 1-2 punch that devastates a standard FE zerg that doesn't respond very well. Against a 1hatch roach rush, it's a bit dicey but in this case, I throw down a cannon or two and if my timing is decent, stalkers and sentries start showing up just in time to hold the line. I feel like its a very unrefined build. Not only did it just fall out of my very early, low-level play and a general desire to combine decent eco with an early push, but I don't see anyone else that does this or mentions it in high-level play. But I can't argue with results and vZ is my best MU right now. So until I start hitting walls, I'm still working off this basic opening. | ||
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kron0s
Philippines57 Posts
13 gate 15 gas (intentionally delayed so i can mine minerals more a bit longer) 15 pylon i make a zealot as soon as my gate finishes, then make a core right after. because of the delayed gas and the few extra minerals you mined, your core will only be delayed very slightly, and using 1 chrono on ur gate before your core finishes allows you 2 zealots before your stalker finishes instead of 1. i let my zealots walk first as stalkers are pretty fast and can just catch up. if you catch your opponent off-guard, sometimes you can get lucky and even snipe a queen. if not, at the very least, you'll be able to take out some lings and force a few more. be sure to back away before ling speed finishes. if you did enough damage, a 3gate followup or a 4gate all-in can finish him off, or you can just expand on 3gates and macro up. personally, i prefer to annoy the zerg more by going fast DT's. (twilight before your 2nd and 3rd gate), then harrass with 3 DT's. one thing i learned though is that it pays not to get too greedy with your DT's. once you sense that detection is on its way, just walk away and save your DT's. a lot of people forget that you can morph your DT's into archons later on. note that +1 archons 1shot lings, while +2 archons 3shot mutalisks. they're really good to have during your next timing attack. keep the ideas comin ^_^ | ||
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cassurai
Singapore307 Posts
I've attached a replay here. http://www2.zippyshare.com/v/37558173/file.html Basically you get a Zealot and 2 Sentries from the first Gate, and when Warpgate is done warp in 3 more Sentries. then build Nexus, Forge, research Hallucination, and warp in more Stalker/Sentry. you also tend to get scouting done with the fake Phoenix earlier than you would with pressure which is a plus point. Yes, the Zerg will not lose any units and will be able to either drone hard and get a third or try to timing attack you. For the latter case, you have no problem holding off even if his push is 20 supply higher, due to forcefields. In this game that's what he did, and I held off easily with less supply. As the game went on, I pushed out with 150 supply just after i got my third. Again, he didn't lose many units and was close to max supply, but with no hive units yet. And again, with good forcefield usage, you will still win despite having lower supply. If, instead of timing attack, they decide to drone hard and get an early third instead. you will still be able to win because either way you will be able to beat a max Zerg army of he has no hive tech, but in that case you will have to push out slightly earlier (based on the timing that his 3rd kicks in, of course),and it'll turn out the same thing. Also, in this game he didn't get Hydras, just Roach, so i got Immortals. In most games they have Hydras, so instead of Immortals you will be able to get out 3 or 4 Colossus for this push, so it's still not a problem. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
What do people think of pylon blocking the ramp with a probe when your poke arrives? It seems to be best if you're going dual stalker as it splits up the lings and buys you some free shots. Is it cost effective with other push combinations? | ||
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kron0s
Philippines57 Posts
On December 03 2010 13:23 cassurai wrote: I actually disagree that you absolutely must pressure the Zerg before 30 drones. Of course you still pressure on say Lost Temple and Metalopolis close positions and whatnot because it's too much of a waste not to, but on further spawns pressuring can be tricky because of speedling timings and surrounds and such. I'm with kcdc on this one. Perhaps pressuring that early is not absolutely necessary, but its still an excellent move considering of course that you are cost efficient with your attack. You force zerglings, delay drones, and if you know the relative timings as to when zergling speed will be finished based on the build they went for, you can just pull back, possibly without even losing most of your units. There are many ways to go about the midgame or late game, one of which you discussed very well. At 2k diamond though, I think we'd all agree that any slight advantage we can get early on will help tons for our midgame. Besides, this discussion is for early push tactics, so let's just stick to that as much as possible. ^_^ On December 03 2010 13:40 kcdc wrote: What do people think of pylon blocking the ramp with a probe when your poke arrives? It seems to be best if you're going dual stalker as it splits up the lings and buys you some free shots. Is it cost effective with other push combinations? I haven't tried this one yet. Definitely a good tactic to be familiar with. I'm thinking you'd have to make up for the cost of the 2 pylons by doing significant damage though. 200 minerals does delay you a bit. | ||
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Satire
Canada295 Posts
I have been farting around with various builds, in various match ups. For PvZ, I've been having good success doing an early 2 gate zealot aggression into void rays. More often than not you are actually able to force roaches, and also force extra defenses to be made. Keep in mind if he's not droning, he's not gaining advantage of his 2nd base. It also helps to delay Ling speed if they throw down a Roach Warren typically, which means it can transition well into Blink Stalker too if that's the route you choose. Usually if they don't go roaches despite your heavy zealot push, it's a pretty good signal they are going to go Mutas, which means you can FE and go for a quick 2 stargate pheonix build. If he does the traditional roach response, the void rays will help you defend any sort of early counter-push, and do harassment of your own while you get your own expo up. If you do a bit of sim city roaches won't be able to do any significant damage if they push out. You can also do some scouting while poking with Voids, so if you need to switch to Phoenix that works. I've transitioned into Carriers as well with a lot of success, but you really need to have Observers, zealots, and play passively. You also need to stop creep spread since 95% of the time they are going to go Mass Hydras to counter you carriers, and your carrier ball won't be able to build up enough if it can't disengage back to your cannon friendly bases. Depending upon the map you can usually just sit on 3 base with a fair share of cannons, until you've got a death ball to push out. Carriers are absolutely beastly in critical mass, so it's really in the Zerg's ball-court to make something happen before that point while your chief concern is just making sure your carriers don't die. The Zerg is unlikely to go air as a response, so if you can abuse maps you should. (ie: Air harassment on Xel'Naga works wonders since you can run away) This build also works wonders with DTs as sniping overseers with carriers is instantaneous. Even 2 or 3 DTs can do a ton of damage, since any good Zerg player will be focusing down interceptors. Although to be honest, if you reach this point in the game you probably have your death ball already... The times I've lost with this build is because I haven't had observers, or I've been careless and lost my third or my army in a poor timing push. Keep in mind that Hydras off creep are very weak. You can easily snipe their army in half while losing your interceptors, and have full interceptors by the time they reach your base and pick off the rest with cannon support. You cannot run away though if they have creep, so that's the real key here. Make sure you chronoboost air attack at all points - it's +16 damage per level. Don't get overaggressive with full on kill attacks, just try to harass off and on with voids and/or shutles. You will have a lot of minerals, so Zealots and Warpprism are completely viable options here to keep drone numbers reasonable. Carriers require a lot of support in small numbers, so feel free to sit on 2 base if you absolutely have to until you are supply capped. If you push out too early, you will lose the game. They won't be able to break your defense though if your carriers are by cannons and supported with zealots in the mid-game. Taking a third on some maps can be very tricky. Some maps zealot rushing won't work because of distances either. | ||
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eth3n
718 Posts
On December 03 2010 16:45 Satire wrote: Typically playing 1.6k-2k diamond. Carriers. been awhile since i've seen a carrier | ||
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Clerseri
Australia150 Posts
Plus you're less susceptible to cheese. | ||
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Satire
Canada295 Posts
I've been farting around on builds to try make use of them. It's pretty tough to do without a quick natural though, so you have to figure out a way around that. I've also been farting around with a Collosi/Carrier/Zealot build that works well against Zerg. The primary issue with any build like that is simply having the time to get them out though. The good thing against Zerg though is that Voids and Phoenix do pretty well against most Zerg mixtures in the mid-game and can do some forcing. Usually if you play defensively you have the time to get them out. Cannons also go a long way to stopping Zerg from winning immediately in the mid-game. Most Zerg's also seem content playing a Macro game as well. I'm sure one day someone will find an actual build that can get them out safely and make use of their potential. (Probably HuK  ) Right now I haven't found anything consistent. | ||
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Wayem
France455 Posts
First I love you because of your PvT build.  Second, PvZ is not my best MU but I'll still give a few advice ^^ I don't think that "applying pressure" is absolutely required. Sometimes it is kind of impossible. Why ? The zerg "puts pressure on himself". At low level it is because they are scared of droning. At high level it is because they will push you. Other than that, I think it is a requirement or you loose. The scouting probe is very important to me. I'll not mention the so frustrating 14hatch. If I see gaz before pool, I know it will be fast speedlings. Then, applying pressure is not that useful because the zerg doesn't mass drone. I go to a safe 3gate expand.I then tech in parallel to blink stalker because I generally suspect mutas after speedlings. I also get hallucination to check if I was "right". Vs roaches they'll do OK and I can turtle and tech robo/collo depending on what the zerg does. "Late" Speedlings, I go zealot before core, then core. Chrono the zealot out, then make a second one and finally and stalker (chronoed). This is enough to kill a few zerglings, eventualy a queen or a drone. While I do this I go forge and expand. SO: 1gate forge expand. During the little pressure, if I see roaches I go robo and make a few canons anyway. With the first chronoed observer, if he keeps on roaches, just make a 1/2 immortals +1 timing push. If he tries to get delayed mutas, you have plenty of time to get blink, you'll NO be in the situation "oh shit I went robo withtout scouting and he got mutas". If I don't see roaches during the little poke but only lings I get blink stalkers/hallucination and we are in the first situation except I did the pressure. Also, I feel that fast roach warren and no expo = absolutely not go pressure or you'll die to a rush. I get 1gate forge canons :o Hope this can help anyone... ^^ Oh, and I've been experimenting a lot with archons vs mutas lings. A well timed push with 2 archons +2 and a lot of blink stalkers/zealots litteraly rapes the zerg. I prefer to delay storm a bit until I get a third base otherwise I feel like I've not enough unit. Plus, it can provide a good push mid game. | ||
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b_unnies
3579 Posts
But I agree, after that it's hard to pressure if you expo(which you will have enough mins after 6 stalkers are out.) Even if you have like 8 stalks/4 sentries hard to pressure and very likely to lose your army. One of the biggest problems in PvZ in my opinion is early to mid game transition where you're deciding whether to go robos if he's going ground or temp if he's going air and those are 2 very and costly different tech structures needed for 2 different tech path. Even with hallucinated phoenixs you still have little warning. Right now I've been experimenting with a variation of Nazgul's 4 gate blink. After the 2 gates I get blink asap (CB'ed) and add another 2 more gates as soon as I have the money. After warp tech is finished and with 4 gates I have 8-12 stalkers(depending on how careless with the ling speed timings). At the same time I take my expo (8 mins into the game), and I feel like with the blink stalkers I do quite a bit of harass. (More so than something like 8 stalkers+4 sentries) Blink stalkers is decent against roaches and if he's going mutas you already have your blink ready and you have an entire minute to delay his mutas as much as possible (earliest time for mutas to finish is 9 mins) | ||
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Anfi
Russian Federation63 Posts
It might outright kill off the zerg expansion, putting the protoss player squarely in the lead. It might force the zerg to put down some spine crawlers, giving protoss the economic leeway to put down his own expansion. Or it might force the zerg to convert a significant amount of his larva into zerglings, eventually forcing roaches, which leaves the zerg open to both a Void Ray and Immortal transitions. The map size seems to make suprisingly little difference. I have done this successfully on both close Lost Temple and Scrap Station. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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Clerseri
Australia150 Posts
But it does delay tech a bit. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
I'm not sure how the timings work out tho. Forge after gas and core worked decently in that VOD, but I'd have to try it out to see if you can consistently make the expense of the forge+pylon+cancelled cannons pay off. | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
there's 2 categories of zerg builds: gas-pool/pool-gas: for fast zergling speed before hatch. which is the safe build, and I don't think you need to pressure this early game until after you've grabbed your expo, making 3 gate expo really strong against that opening imo. pool-gas can obviously lead to roach quite often, so you have to be careful with that. pool-hatch/hatch-pool: This build you have to pressure, and you have a window due to the delayed ling speed. Obviously, blocking the hatch-pool with a pylon is ideal, and if he puts it down, blocking the ramp with pylons and going forge is really strong (personally I don't use this though.) I use 2 stalker harass to possibly kill an overlord some lings, force lings/a spine, and maybe snipe a drone or 2, while putting down a nexus on 1 gate and 1 gas, and then a stargate right after (the timing is such that if you go stalker-stalker-zealot, or zealot-stalker-stalker, and you start warp-gate asap, after you put down your nexus, you get 150 minerals same time as you reach 150 gas.) Then I get 1 voidray with the stargate, which is helpful in defending ling/roach all-ins, and then I use it to kill a few scouting overlords while they still don't have speed, and force him to get some extra queens while building a phoenix to scout his tech. edit: PS teach me PvT =( | ||
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cameronkrazie86
United States296 Posts
So here's what I came up with, I'm sure it can be more efficient economy wise and I'm sure it'll need revisions later on but I've got probably an 80% win rate vs zerg using this (granted, I'm only ranked second in gold so take it for what it's worth). 9 - pylon 11 - gateway 13 - gateway 14 - assimilator 14/15 - pylon Then sometime between 18-24 - cybernetics core Immediately get warp gate upon completion, you should have around 80 to 100 gas when core completes. I usually get between 3 and 5 zealots while waiting for core to finish. Then I usually get a sentry and a stalker Then robo around the 6 minute mark Also add two more gateways as soon as you're able to, I usually get it right before warp finishes. Get 2-3 immortals mixed in with 5-6 zealots, 5-6 stalkers and 2-3 sentries and push out around the 8 to 10 minute mark with +1 attack. I try to push out between 60-70 food and have the +1 armor halfway done when leaving my base. The zealots take care of all the zerglings you could run into, the roaches and queens are dominated by the immortals and the sentries and stalkers clean whatever else is left. The spire seems to take forever so I feel like mentally, I have around 9 minutes to effectively push before the mutas hit. Again, that's just what I do and like I said, I'm only in gold but I've had tremendous success with this build. It's flexible enough to mix and match, the important thing is to have the 2-3 immortals to punish any roaches and quickly destroy queens. The four warpgates allows for quick reinforcements and you should have plenty of money to expand while attacking or even to expand around 30-40 food depending on your preferences. | ||
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