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On December 03 2010 01:35 FeltFireFox wrote:I make my second gate before my zealot...sometimes you may have to change this obviously if you see lings coming or anything that might hurt you. There is a small idle time on your first gate but if u want u can just start your first stalker and rally the second one to catch up when its done. soo BO is 13gate -> gas -> core -> gate -> zealot -> stalker x2 then transition into whatever you want 
I think the closest thing to a perfect 1zeal+2stalker timing should go as a 13gate>15gas>16gate>17core+zealot opening
push with your cutsie threesome while moving toward expanding/adding more gates?
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On December 03 2010 01:55 iamke55 wrote:
First you need to determine what build the zerg is going for before you decide what to pressure with. I like to classify the builds into two types: early gas (14 pool 14 gas) and early hatchery (14 hatch, 14 pool 16 hatch, etc).
If they do any early hatchery build, 1 zealot and 1 stalker are the units you want to pressure with, making sure you rally your gate to your stalker and chrono boost a 2nd stalker. Early hatchery gives you a timing window where stalkers can kite everything and thus force a lot more lings than they would have to build if they have speed. Sometimes you can snipe a queen like this as well. If you scouted their build early enough, you might have time to skip the zealot entirely in favor of a faster 2nd gate (think double stalker opening).
If they went for early gas, then you won't be able to do anything with stalkers before ling speed finishes. But their economy is also behind compared to a fast hatchery, so you don't need to pressure at the 1 gateway stage of the game. In this case, standard 3 gate zealot/sentry is fine.
Yeah, thanks for mentioning this. This thread assumes hatch before gas.
Question:
Standard zealot+stalker opening is gate -> gas -> core -> zealot -> stalker. Does anyone have experience with gate -> gas -> zealot -> core -> zealot -> stalker? This removes the idle time at completion of your gate allowing you an earlier first and second zealot, but delays your core.
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Ok first of all I really like this thread. Kcdc I feel the exact same way as you in the Protoss so I also learned to play zerg and found the same that if I could drone freely I win easy. That prompted me to decide that I must pressure the zerg. I'm playing at 2300 level just for a note as well. Anyways I have found a strat I'm really liking that isn't allinish. Basically I 10 gate early zeal for initial pressure to force lings at the start. Key is not let zealot die without doing at least almost to equal damage. You really just want him to make lings who cares if you kill that much (as long as the zeal lives.) From there you get cybernatics up asap with a second zeal rallyed to join the first. Key is to keep the pressure on. As soon as cybernatics is up I chorno the fuck out of it for a 4 warp gate push. Any decent zerg will scout this, but that is fine. So here is where I really like this. If you feel the zerg isn't ready for the 4 warp gate push fuck it, 4 warp gate all in him. But like most games if he is prepared what I like to do is clear out any lings/ols at my expo and push with zeals/probe. As soon as you have killed the ling at ur expo throw a nexus down. From here get close to his base and build a proxy pylon. Every zerg I have played thus far just starts massing units hard and extra spine crawlers. Chances are you cannot beat the zerg so you just want to make sure you don't lose your entire army for nothing. If you can just run all of your units back to your base after the pylon is up and you have poked a bit. Each zerg I have played has totally overcomponsated in defense/units and I then have the advantage with 2 bases vs 2 bases. Here is where I get stuck though, I'm not sure the transition I want to go into. I'm stuck between like a 6 gate timing push. (Theory behind this is as soon as he realizes that you aren't actually pushing him he is either going to a) attack you, which you must be ready for with good FF micro. or b) be like o shit I gotta catch up on drones and drone super hard and throw down 3rd expo.) Versus B I feel like after like 2 or 3 minutes of constant gateway production you will def have a unit advantage and a hard timing push probably can win. Let me know your thoughts, if you like the style I'm using let me know and I'll throw up some reps. If you have any tips/advice on it I would love to hear also, specifically in the transition once my expo is kicking in.
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On December 03 2010 02:15 Monk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ok first of all I really like this thread. Kcdc I feel the exact same way as you in the Protoss so I also learned to play zerg and found the same that if I could drone freely I win easy. That prompted me to decide that I must pressure the zerg. I'm playing at 2300 level just for a note as well. Anyways I have found a strat I'm really liking that isn't allinish. Basically I 10 gate early zeal for initial pressure to force lings at the start. Key is not let zealot die without doing at least almost to equal damage. You really just want him to make lings who cares if you kill that much (as long as the zeal lives.) From there you get cybernatics up asap with a second zeal rallyed to join the first. Key is to keep the pressure on. As soon as cybernatics is up I chorno the fuck out of it for a 4 warp gate push. Any decent zerg will scout this, but that is fine. So here is where I really like this. If you feel the zerg isn't ready for the 4 warp gate push fuck it, 4 warp gate all in him. But like most games if he is prepared what I like to do is clear out any lings/ols at my expo and push with zeals/probe. As soon as you have killed the ling at ur expo throw a nexus down. From here get close to his base and build a proxy pylon. Every zerg I have played thus far just starts massing units hard and extra spine crawlers. Chances are you cannot beat the zerg so you just want to make sure you don't lose your entire army for nothing. If you can just run all of your units back to your base after the pylon is up and you have poked a bit. Each zerg I have played has totally overcomponsated in defense/units and I then have the advantage with 2 bases vs 2 bases. Here is where I get stuck though, I'm not sure the transition I want to go into. I'm stuck between like a 6 gate timing push. (Theory behind this is as soon as he realizes that you aren't actually pushing him he is either going to a) attack you, which you must be ready for with good FF micro. or b) be like o shit I gotta catch up on drones and drone super hard and throw down 3rd expo.) Versus B I feel like after like 2 or 3 minutes of constant gateway production you will def have a unit advantage and a hard timing push probably can win. Let me know your thoughts, if you like the style I'm using let me know and I'll throw up some reps. If you have any tips/advice on it I would love to hear also, specifically in the transition once my expo is kicking in.
My eyes.
They are bleeding.
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On December 03 2010 02:18 Phrencys wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 02:15 Monk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ok first of all I really like this thread. Kcdc I feel the exact same way as you in the Protoss so I also learned to play zerg and found the same that if I could drone freely I win easy. That prompted me to decide that I must pressure the zerg. I'm playing at 2300 level just for a note as well. Anyways I have found a strat I'm really liking that isn't allinish. Basically I 10 gate early zeal for initial pressure to force lings at the start. Key is not let zealot die without doing at least almost to equal damage. You really just want him to make lings who cares if you kill that much (as long as the zeal lives.) From there you get cybernatics up asap with a second zeal rallyed to join the first. Key is to keep the pressure on. As soon as cybernatics is up I chorno the fuck out of it for a 4 warp gate push. Any decent zerg will scout this, but that is fine. So here is where I really like this. If you feel the zerg isn't ready for the 4 warp gate push fuck it, 4 warp gate all in him. But like most games if he is prepared what I like to do is clear out any lings/ols at my expo and push with zeals/probe. As soon as you have killed the ling at ur expo throw a nexus down. From here get close to his base and build a proxy pylon. Every zerg I have played thus far just starts massing units hard and extra spine crawlers. Chances are you cannot beat the zerg so you just want to make sure you don't lose your entire army for nothing. If you can just run all of your units back to your base after the pylon is up and you have poked a bit. Each zerg I have played has totally overcomponsated in defense/units and I then have the advantage with 2 bases vs 2 bases. Here is where I get stuck though, I'm not sure the transition I want to go into. I'm stuck between like a 6 gate timing push. (Theory behind this is as soon as he realizes that you aren't actually pushing him he is either going to a) attack you, which you must be ready for with good FF micro. or b) be like o shit I gotta catch up on drones and drone super hard and throw down 3rd expo.) Versus B I feel like after like 2 or 3 minutes of constant gateway production you will def have a unit advantage and a hard timing push probably can win. Let me know your thoughts, if you like the style I'm using let me know and I'll throw up some reps. If you have any tips/advice on it I would love to hear also, specifically in the transition once my expo is kicking in. My eyes. They are bleeding.
i felt like i was charlie brown and that was an adult talking to me
kcdc: ah ha!! that explains why i went 1v1 against you and you were zerg, i even said you were gonna FE when the game started. (i played embarrassingly bad though, decided to go 3gate expo, accidentally got a robo, then went for a super delayed 4gate despite having robo up)
on topic: i try to get fast +1 attacks because even in the early game, it pays itself off against zerglings (250/100 which would be sacrifing the ressources of 2 stalkers, giving every 2 zealot the zergling-mowing power of 3)
about stalker harrass, i don't think it's that effective (high apm, low reward), you will likely just get your second/third stalker when speed kicks in and zerg will know that he can drone up for a little while
i do feel however, that a 2 base timing push is easier to execute, provided you mess with the zerg here and there
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On December 03 2010 02:07 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 01:43 Treehead wrote:
I'm always afraid of pushing out too early and getting overwhelmed by the queen + a few lings, and ultimately removing a bigger chunk of my army than I am removing drones.
In general, my biggest problem in PvZ is that it feels like spine crawlers are ridiculously cost effective against anything short of stargate play or multiple Immortals (which, as kcdc implies, comes too late to deny the zerg his first 30 drones). Also, I find that if I want to have any hope of expanding, I need to pre-empt mutalisk play - either by a timing push that mutas are ineffective against, or by showing a strategy that causes him not to go with mutas.
Just for the sake of experimentation, when does a typical zerg build hit 30 drones? When does a "safe" zerg build start getting mutalisks? I mentioned 30 drones because that's about the max Zerg can get off a FE build before he has to start preparing for warpgate attacks. When warpgate tech finishes is an important timing in ZvP because it's the first point that Protoss is really capable of killing Zerg. Fortunately for Zerg, warpgate tech is slow enough that they have a window where they can can set up a decent economy before preparing for the scary pushes. If P can disrput this droning window a bit, they've done significant damage. As for when mutas pop, I couldn't give you an exact time, but if attack while expanding and are forced to retreat by zerglings and spine crawlers, mutas will be coming shortly.
The reason I ask is that I've been using Carbontwelve's BO tester to see what we can have by these points in time. The reason I'm asking for specific times is that it would be good to pin down the strongest (non all-in) timing push we can attain in each of these timing windows.
Edit: removed second paragraph. I'm just going to stay away from stargates - for early pushing anyway.
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My PvZ has been drastically improved since incorporating some of Plexa's awesomeness into my play. PvZ is all about either early pressure or matching economy, there is no room for 2nd guessing because Z will inevitably be committed to an FE or some form of early pressure (5rr, 7rr, 2 base speedling, ling/bling, etc.).
However, I prefer to mix up how I pressure at the start (if I don't like my 15nex option on the map or matchup). Some games I prefer to do a quick 3 gate push into expand, others I do a chronod 2 gate mix (usually heavy on sentry/zlot to force roaches which I counter with quick imms or stalk heavy gway mix on 4/5 gates. I also like quick phoenix pressure if you can ensure denying the scouts. Although the impact of phoenixes is minimal to Z economy, it forces them into hydra roach play or heavy corruptors, both of which P can quickly tech transfer into a counter.
My gway timing pushes vary depending on rush distance. If I'm farther away (any on Shakuras, cross on Metal, LT, or scrap, I prefer to mass up a few more units as the Z will get some quick D up before I can early pressure. If I'm closer (steppes, blistering, close metal/LT), then I prefer to push with about 2-3 sentries and 3 zlots to force the roaches.
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On December 03 2010 02:15 Monk wrote:
Ok first of all I really like this thread. Kcdc I feel the exact same way as you in the Protoss so I also learned to play zerg and found the same that if I could drone freely I win easy. That prompted me to decide that I must pressure the zerg. I'm playing at 2300 level just for a note as well. Anyways I have found a strat I'm really liking that isn't allinish. Basically I 10 gate early zeal for initial pressure to force lings at the start. Key is not let zealot die without doing at least almost to equal damage. You really just want him to make lings who cares if you kill that much (as long as the zeal lives.) From there you get cybernatics up asap with a second zeal rallyed to join the first. Key is to keep the pressure on. As soon as cybernatics is up I chorno the fuck out of it for a 4 warp gate push. Any decent zerg will scout this, but that is fine. So here is where I really like this. If you feel the zerg isn't ready for the 4 warp gate push fuck it, 4 warp gate all in him. But like most games if he is prepared what I like to do is clear out any lings/ols at my expo and push with zeals/probe. As soon as you have killed the ling at ur expo throw a nexus down. From here get close to his base and build a proxy pylon. Every zerg I have played thus far just starts massing units hard and extra spine crawlers. Chances are you cannot beat the zerg so you just want to make sure you don't lose your entire army for nothing. If you can just run all of your units back to your base after the pylon is up and you have poked a bit. Each zerg I have played has totally overcomponsated in defense/units and I then have the advantage with 2 bases vs 2 bases. Here is where I get stuck though, I'm not sure the transition I want to go into. I'm stuck between like a 6 gate timing push. (Theory behind this is as soon as he realizes that you aren't actually pushing him he is either going to a) attack you, which you must be ready for with good FF micro. or b) be like o shit I gotta catch up on drones and drone super hard and throw down 3rd expo.) Versus B I feel like after like 2 or 3 minutes of constant gateway production you will def have a unit advantage and a hard timing push probably can win. Let me know your thoughts, if you like the style I'm using let me know and I'll throw up some reps. If you have any tips/advice on it I would love to hear also, specifically in the transition once my expo is kicking in.
I'd probably be inclined to bump the transition pressure down to from 4 gates to 3, but I like the 10-gate zealot -> core -> zealot idea. Do you bring a probe? Do you attack the hatch at the nat or push into the main?
As for transitions once you've expanded, poked and retreated, I'd favor a stargate. If you've disrupted Z's econ enough, it'll be hard for Z to overwhelm your phoenixes with mutas, and gateway + phoenix/void is actually pretty decent against roach/hydra in smaller numbers.
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Yeah I'm thinking about switching to 3 gate. The only thing that I hesitate on is I feel like 3 gate the zerg would feel more free to drone I think just the fact that a zerg see's 4 gates turns him 100 % survival mode. But yah 3 gates may be better. And yah I still have my scouting probe at his base. Key is when the zealot is on the travel time over send the probe into his main to see when pool finishes/ how many lings he is making. If there is drones at the nat I always hit that, but if not I try to engage the lings when the numbers favor me. I.e 2 lings I'll fight. Once I sense more lings about to come I send that zeal backwards to meet up with the second qued zealot. Eventually they get enough lings to overwhelm you so I've found its best to leave before you lose both zeal. It's really not worth it to lose 2 zeals for 3 extra lings. however though this little Mexican standoff buys me sometime. It actually takes a lot of micro/macro cause you want to be chronoing your cyber core full bore and making the extra gates.
Yah I'll have to try the stargate transition, I'm thinking that could be good cause if he goes muta tech ur golden and if he goes roaches u can go void rays.
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On December 03 2010 01:55 iamke55 wrote:
First you need to determine what build the zerg is going for before you decide what to pressure with. I like to classify the builds into two types: early gas (14 pool 14 gas) and early hatchery (14 hatch, 14 pool 16 hatch, etc).
If they do any early hatchery build, 1 zealot and 1 stalker are the units you want to pressure with, making sure you rally your gate to your stalker and chrono boost a 2nd stalker. Early hatchery gives you a timing window where stalkers can kite everything and thus force a lot more lings than they would have to build if they have speed. Sometimes you can snipe a queen like this as well. If you scouted their build early enough, you might have time to skip the zealot entirely in favor of a faster 2nd gate (think double stalker opening).
If they went for early gas, then you won't be able to do anything with stalkers before ling speed finishes. But their economy is also behind compared to a fast hatchery, so you don't need to pressure at the 1 gateway stage of the game. In this case, standard 3 gate zealot/sentry is fine.
Let me say, originally I wanted to write something, but I seriously don't know what to add anymore because everything you've written is spot-on 100% correct. If you scout early gas, then I also have found the sentry-expand to be the best because it's very defense and protects you against a variety of stupid stuff and you can get hallucination early too.
But there's one thing that maybe could be discussed more: the double stalker opening I've first seen NEXGenius do and that you've also mentioned.
As you said, there's a crucial difference in the build-order: before the cybernetics core you get a 2nd gate and immediately add the core afterwards. Maybe cut probes very slightly. This way you can abuse the fact that the core builds faster than the gateway, which means both buildings will finish basicly at the same time. Now you chrono-boost out two quick stalkers, which allows for a faster, more flexible harass. Depending on how you wanna proceed or also depending on your scouting-intel you can either get two additional stalkers (if he didn't take gas at all or VERY late) or get a zealot and a sentry and prepare for a very early 2 gate expand which will be slightly more economical than a 3 gate expand (obvious lol) and can be done when zerg wants to play more economicly greedy himself. It's important to realize that you can even KILL overly greedy zergs with the 4 stalkers, Kiwikaki did this in his initial games @MLG Dallas against the weak(er) opponents in his first games (if Zelniq reads this: no I do NOT mean the games where Kiwi played vs you, don't worry, you did fine  )
I think there's even a way to distinguish between those two openings quite comfortably: both require you to scout no gas first.
1.) Maps with wide open naturals:
On these maps I prefer double stalker openings because zealots can easily get surrounded/outmicroed by the queen, while stalkers have much space to kite. Ideal is Xel Naga but also Metalopolis. You can abuse the mobility of your stalkers perfectly there, without ling-speed you can even go behind the mineral-line and be safe, because there's always an "exit" on the opposite direction of the ramp.
2.) Maps with closed naturals:
On these maps zealot first into two more stalkers is imo better because there's not that much space for queens/lings to micro against your initial zealot. Vice versa, there's not that much space for your stalkers to kite either. Examples would be Lost Temple or Blistering Sands. Once you are in the entrance you are kinda "trapped", but it's much harder for the zerg to avoid getting hit by the initial zealot. Also maps with short rush-distances are better for zealot first due to the obvious reason that zealots suck at running fast.
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On December 03 2010 03:01 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 01:55 iamke55 wrote:
First you need to determine what build the zerg is going for before you decide what to pressure with. I like to classify the builds into two types: early gas (14 pool 14 gas) and early hatchery (14 hatch, 14 pool 16 hatch, etc).
If they do any early hatchery build, 1 zealot and 1 stalker are the units you want to pressure with, making sure you rally your gate to your stalker and chrono boost a 2nd stalker. Early hatchery gives you a timing window where stalkers can kite everything and thus force a lot more lings than they would have to build if they have speed. Sometimes you can snipe a queen like this as well. If you scouted their build early enough, you might have time to skip the zealot entirely in favor of a faster 2nd gate (think double stalker opening).
If they went for early gas, then you won't be able to do anything with stalkers before ling speed finishes. But their economy is also behind compared to a fast hatchery, so you don't need to pressure at the 1 gateway stage of the game. In this case, standard 3 gate zealot/sentry is fine. Let me say, originally I wanted to write something, but I seriously don't know what to add anymore because everything you've written is spot-on 100% correct. If you scout early gas, then I also have found the sentry-expand to be the best because it's very defense and protects you against a variety of stupid stuff and you can get hallucination early too. But there's one thing that maybe could be discussed more: the double stalker opening I've first seen NEXGenius do and that you've also mentioned. As you said, there's a crucial difference in the build-order: before the cybernetics core you get a 2nd gate and immediately add the core afterwards. Maybe cut probes very slightly. This way you can abuse the fact that the core builds faster than the gateway, which means both buildings will finish basicly at the same time. Now you chrono-boost out two quick stalkers, which allows for a faster, more flexible harass. Depending on how you wanna proceed or also depending on your scouting-intel you can either get two additional stalkers (if he didn't take gas at all or VERY late) or get a zealot and a sentry and prepare for a very early 2 gate expand which will be slightly more economical than a 3 gate expand (obvious lol) and can be done when zerg wants to play more economicly greedy himself. It's important to realize that you can even KILL overly greedy zergs with the 4 stalkers, Kiwikaki did this in his initial games @MLG Dallas against the weak(er) opponents in his first games (if Zelniq reads this: no I do NOT mean the games where Kiwi played vs you, don't worry, you did fine ) I think there's even a way to distinguish between those two openings quite comfortably: both require you to scout no gas first. 1.) Maps with wide open naturals:On these maps I prefer double stalker openings because zealots can easily get surrounded/outmicroed by queens, while stalkers have much space to kite. Ideal is Xel Naga but also Metalopolis. You can abuse the mobility of your stalkers perfectly there. 2.) Maps with closed naturals:On these maps zealot first into two more stalkers is imo better because there's not that much space for queens/lings to micro against your initial zealot. Vice versa, there's not that much space for your stalkers to kite either. Examples would be Lost Temple or Blistering Sands. Once you are in the entrance you are kinda "trapped", but it's much harder for the zerg to avoid getting hit by the initial zealot. Also maps with short rush-distances are better for zealot first due to the obvious reason that zealots suck at running fast.
Personally I scout after first pylon so I usually see what he is doing. If he is going gas first double stalker opener is really bad cause he will have ling speed at like 5:15, not nearly enough time to do damage with stalkers. If he goes hatch first the dual stalker pressure can be pretty nice and zergs usually won't have ling speed until 6:30.
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On December 03 2010 03:06 Monk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 03:01 sleepingdog wrote:On December 03 2010 01:55 iamke55 wrote:
First you need to determine what build the zerg is going for before you decide what to pressure with. I like to classify the builds into two types: early gas (14 pool 14 gas) and early hatchery (14 hatch, 14 pool 16 hatch, etc).
If they do any early hatchery build, 1 zealot and 1 stalker are the units you want to pressure with, making sure you rally your gate to your stalker and chrono boost a 2nd stalker. Early hatchery gives you a timing window where stalkers can kite everything and thus force a lot more lings than they would have to build if they have speed. Sometimes you can snipe a queen like this as well. If you scouted their build early enough, you might have time to skip the zealot entirely in favor of a faster 2nd gate (think double stalker opening).
If they went for early gas, then you won't be able to do anything with stalkers before ling speed finishes. But their economy is also behind compared to a fast hatchery, so you don't need to pressure at the 1 gateway stage of the game. In this case, standard 3 gate zealot/sentry is fine. Let me say, originally I wanted to write something, but I seriously don't know what to add anymore because everything you've written is spot-on 100% correct. If you scout early gas, then I also have found the sentry-expand to be the best because it's very defense and protects you against a variety of stupid stuff and you can get hallucination early too. But there's one thing that maybe could be discussed more: the double stalker opening I've first seen NEXGenius do and that you've also mentioned. As you said, there's a crucial difference in the build-order: before the cybernetics core you get a 2nd gate and immediately add the core afterwards. Maybe cut probes very slightly. This way you can abuse the fact that the core builds faster than the gateway, which means both buildings will finish basicly at the same time. Now you chrono-boost out two quick stalkers, which allows for a faster, more flexible harass. Depending on how you wanna proceed or also depending on your scouting-intel you can either get two additional stalkers (if he didn't take gas at all or VERY late) or get a zealot and a sentry and prepare for a very early 2 gate expand which will be slightly more economical than a 3 gate expand (obvious lol) and can be done when zerg wants to play more economicly greedy himself. It's important to realize that you can even KILL overly greedy zergs with the 4 stalkers, Kiwikaki did this in his initial games @MLG Dallas against the weak(er) opponents in his first games (if Zelniq reads this: no I do NOT mean the games where Kiwi played vs you, don't worry, you did fine ) I think there's even a way to distinguish between those two openings quite comfortably: both require you to scout no gas first. 1.) Maps with wide open naturals:On these maps I prefer double stalker openings because zealots can easily get surrounded/outmicroed by queens, while stalkers have much space to kite. Ideal is Xel Naga but also Metalopolis. You can abuse the mobility of your stalkers perfectly there. 2.) Maps with closed naturals:On these maps zealot first into two more stalkers is imo better because there's not that much space for queens/lings to micro against your initial zealot. Vice versa, there's not that much space for your stalkers to kite either. Examples would be Lost Temple or Blistering Sands. Once you are in the entrance you are kinda "trapped", but it's much harder for the zerg to avoid getting hit by the initial zealot. Also maps with short rush-distances are better for zealot first due to the obvious reason that zealots suck at running fast. Personally I scout after first pylon so I usually see what he is doing. If he is going gas first double stalker opener is really bad cause he will have ling speed at like 5:15, not nearly enough time to do damage with stalkers. If he goes hatch first the dual stalker pressure can be pretty nice and zergs usually won't have ling speed until 6:30.
Yeah true, that's why I've written "both require you to scout no gas first" - I've tested it once to see if my theory-craft was correct and indeed: the two stalkers get a few shots off and then just DIE miserably because speed finishes. No way to save the stalkers against early speedlings.
Double stalker opening is ESPECIALLY good against zergs who want to omit lings completely and go directly to roaches. You can kite the living hell out of the slow roaches, he will maybe even feel compelled to get much more roaches out than he would've to "fight" against your two stalkers, which makes it even more effective.
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On December 03 2010 02:12 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 01:51 Tozs wrote:
You can also fast expand, as in the game with GuineaPig and IMJunwi, where Guinea Pig just continued to chrono probes, assuming zerg goes fast hatch, and then do a Immortal +1 zealot timing attack. Only problem is holding off roach busts or baneling busts
-woo first post! I'm not really sure you can FE the way Guinea Pig did consistently. Sure, it paid off for him in those games, but if you look at Plexa's PvZ guide he says that on many maps, especially those with open naturals, 3-gate FE is the only fast expand that is "safe" - and note that at the point where you have 3 gateways, your expansion is less of a "fast expand" and more of just an expansion. Are we sure and can someone provide extensive testing that if the zerg goes hatch first, we can get away with fast expanding? I've seen some pretty scary 2-base quick roach builds that cause me to believe otherwise.
The issue isn't really "getting away" with FE'ing in terms of being able to safely get your FE up and running as you can do that vs hatch first very easily. The issue really comes down protoss' lack of mobility (especially early on) which affects how they can defend 2 early bases. This is why FE'ing on some maps is way easier than others. For example it is very easy to get your FE up and running on Blistering but incredibly hard to defend 2 bases due to the backdoor rocks and the travel distance b/w the main and natural. Scrap Station is the opposite, where the backdoor choke is easily defendable and there's one main passageway to both bases.
Back on topic though, my thoughts:
-It comes down to initial zealot + stalker harass (if you aren't going with early forge to deny FE with cannons). Where you go from there depends on if they want gas/pool or hatch first as people have mentioned. I remember somebody mentioning you have ~3 in-game minutes once the extractor goes down to harass with stalkers before speed goes up, so if they go hatch first then you will want to get that 2nd stalker out quick to continue harass. Once speed kicks in then you want to focus more zealot/sentry for your first real big push once WG finishes. A heavy zealot/sentry composition pretty much forces roaches. Go more stalker heavy if you see a heavy roach reaction obviously.
-That standard to build upon that I've seen most pros do and I agree with (if you're not FE'ing yourself) is expanding behind a 3-gate push. If you execute it correctly you should be able to enter into the mid-game on equal ground. Obviously there are numerous transitions you can go into now that you are 2-bases.
-In regards to muta timing, if you don't force any roaches and see nothing but lings/crawlers and you can expect mutas to be at your base ~10 mins. There are a lot of factors like travel distance and what not but that is the rough ballpark I've found.
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Ok these are the openings I use:
Maps with closed naturals AND long rush distance (shakuras, jungle, cross LT and scrap):
Cannon FE. Toss FE has about the same economy as zerg FE depending on their build, if they 14 hatch you can actually outeco them. Only works on the maps i mentioned though as on other maps roach pressure is too hard / too costly to stop.
All other maps:
Some form of stalker pressure.
I scout to see their gas timing (and delay hatch hopefully). If they went with a fast gas I go with 1 zealot, 1 stalker then sentries into 3 gate expand. Pressuring against 14 gas is pretty futile as speed finishes too early (always scout to see if they go speed or roach though). If they don't take gas early I go with a double stalker opening.
The best build for double stalker is just:
9 pylon @ edge-> scout
first 3 chrono on nexus
13 gate
15 gas
16 pylon (power up first gate)
18 2nd gate
19 cyber
20 2nd gas
21, 2nd gate and cyber finish at same time, energy at 50 so chrono out 2 stalkers and get warpgate, very slight probe cut at this moment
25 pylon
The strenght of the double stalker opening is NOT needing your zealot. The zealot adds relatively little to the attack anyway and with 2 stalkers your fine against ling pressure if they didnt gas up quickly. At this point you continue stalker pressure, the amount of stalkers you get should depend on their gas timing. Usually i get 2 stalkers first then a stalker and a sentry if they go 14 hatch 15 pool 16 gas, occasionally i get more stalkers though.
Once you stop stalkers you should be building sentries non stop and expanding. Generally I put my 2nd gateway down the ramp already (hence the first pylon at the edge) and start forming a wall. The nexus timing should also depend, if they for example defend with a spine crawler you can go nexus at 30 straight after your first 3 stalkers. If they defend with roaches or speedlings its usually better to get a 3rd gate first and then expand. Either way the extra gates should form some sort of wall towards your expo so sentries can defend it easier.
Using pressure builds is MUCH harder on maps with a closed natural and generally not advisable imo. Open maps are great for a stalker opening because a) stalkes have much more angle's to attack from much harder to defend and b) stalker, senrty is a great followup for the midgame as muta's are not really viable on open maps (because you can do a timing attack while the spire builds). On closed maps stalker openings are much worse as 1 spine stops you and a muta followup is great to nullify huge amounts of sentries (and they can spine up to defend a timing attack).
Also important every time you don't FE is to block that hatch if possible. On most maps a 9 scout is practically garanteed to come in time to block the hatch most of the time.
All in all i've found zealot + stalker harass completely crap. THe zealot is too slow to do anything and can't really focus or hit good targets anyway. Way too often the zealot arrives and simply whacks a few times at a hatchery and then has to retreat. Zealots are also practically useless if you continue with a stalker + sentry opening, the only time i get a zealot is when they open with fast ling pressure to block the opening really. For the most time I think PvZ is best played zealotless.
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Early gas clearly screws up pressure before warpgate tech, so we're assuming hatch/pool or pool/hatch for this discussion.
So far, we've had early attack suggestions of:
1 zealot + 1 stalker from 12/13 gate
1 zealot + 2 stalkers from 12/13 gate with second gate before zealot
2 zealots from 10-gate
Dual stalker opening (gate -> gas -> gate -> core)
Does anyone have good experience with most of these and can offer insights into the differences in how much pressure you can apply with each and how they each affect your own econ/tech?
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On December 03 2010 03:27 Markwerf wrote:
All in all i've found zealot + stalker harass completely crap. THe zealot is too slow to do anything and can't really focus or hit good targets anyway. Way too often the zealot arrives and simply whacks a few times at a hatchery and then has to retreat. Zealots are also practically useless if you continue with a stalker + sentry opening, the only time i get a zealot is when they open with fast ling pressure to block the opening really. For the most time I think PvZ is best played zealotless.
This was the way I was thinking several weeks ago - but if you play it carefully your initial zealot can do TONS of damage, ESPECIALLY on maps with closed naturals. Because it is way easier to prevent a surrount and it is harder for your opponent to move his queen around.
The best example for this would probably be MLG Dallas TT1 vs Machine on Lost Temple, TT1 applied a great amount of pressure with his first zealot/stalker/probe (pylons to confuse the opponent) and continued rallied stalkers into 2 gate expo, 5 gate + 1 push.
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On December 03 2010 02:15 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 01:55 iamke55 wrote:
First you need to determine what build the zerg is going for before you decide what to pressure with. I like to classify the builds into two types: early gas (14 pool 14 gas) and early hatchery (14 hatch, 14 pool 16 hatch, etc).
If they do any early hatchery build, 1 zealot and 1 stalker are the units you want to pressure with, making sure you rally your gate to your stalker and chrono boost a 2nd stalker. Early hatchery gives you a timing window where stalkers can kite everything and thus force a lot more lings than they would have to build if they have speed. Sometimes you can snipe a queen like this as well. If you scouted their build early enough, you might have time to skip the zealot entirely in favor of a faster 2nd gate (think double stalker opening).
If they went for early gas, then you won't be able to do anything with stalkers before ling speed finishes. But their economy is also behind compared to a fast hatchery, so you don't need to pressure at the 1 gateway stage of the game. In this case, standard 3 gate zealot/sentry is fine. Yeah, thanks for mentioning this. This thread assumes hatch before gas. Question: Standard zealot+stalker opening is gate -> gas -> core -> zealot -> stalker. Does anyone have experience with gate -> gas -> zealot -> core -> zealot -> stalker? This removes the idle time at completion of your gate allowing you an earlier first and second zealot, but delays your core.
in the second one, when I'm feeling really safe and I 3 gate fe I cut the idle time zealot and make a second gate with those minerals. Obviously risky, sometimes it works, sometimes you get 7rrd and you die haha
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This thread assumes hatch before gas. After this point in the thread, posters should assume that they have seen this and are looking for a means to apply pressure.
Personally, I'm getting concerned with the 11 pool build from the zerg economy thread. It's supposedly nearly as economically-oriented, but with an 11-pool, they can get an early set of lings to deny you the information of which they take first, and can potentially go aggressive early if they scout a FE.
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If you scout his base and see an expo, lots of drones, a queen etc, thats when i would normally send zlots from my gate (w/o warp tech) normally i have cy core finished by the time my 2-3 zealots are out there, this way you can recover if the push fails.
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EPT
