EPT
Putting an end to the Zerg Opening Economy debate. - Page 13
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
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crappen
Norway1546 Posts
On November 30 2010 23:09 roadrunner343 wrote: I was so intrigued by Lomilar's build, that I had to try it out myself. I deviated a tiny bit, but not much... I think I followed it up to about 30 supply, so it was after I got my expansion. I've tried this build 3 times so far and won two games, and the game I lost was simply because I threw away a huge lead in one battle... felt like an idiot. Anyways, I am extremely impressed with this build so far. I would have never expected it to do so well economy wise. Here is a replay of me executing the build. 1800+ Diamond http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/110784-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war I really like this build so far. Like I said, I followed the build pretty well, and I scouted a very early 2 racks... I was able to drone hard and still pump lings in time to fend off the attack. I then had a far superior economy, tech switched to mutas, and eventually won the game. It was a far from perfect mid-late game, but I think that replay shows the strengths of this build early on. let me know what you guys think, what could have been done better, etc... Lol, that replay was funny. Even though you had 3 times the army, 4 times the income, you did not attack with your superior ground army (did not even have tanks) :D He actually had to come to your base, and get picked off by 4 spines while your army chilled in the back, probably laughed their asses off. | ||
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ipwnN00bz
United States42 Posts
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
On December 01 2010 00:16 Dragar wrote: A thought: to try and mitigate the effect of larvae inject on our 6-minute readings, perhaps we should value them with the following method. A drones takes 17+40 seconds to produce. a) A drone X time into production should be valued as (40+X)/57 worth of a drone. b) Unpopped larvae due to injection, a time T into the larvae injection process, should be valued as as T/57 worth of a drone for earch larva. Edit: It's very important we do this actually, or any drones at 0/17 simply vanish from the output, and the larvae also vanish. This could give a false impression when reporting the results. Actually, I think valuing the drone egg as a full drone at 0/17, and counting the position X/40 in the Spawn Larvae cycle as being worth 4 * X / 40 drones is better. Assuming we are only building Drones, and only using Spawn Larvae larvae, if you plot score vs time over the course of the 40 second cycle:
I'm fairly convinced a straight line is better. (8/57 comes from the fact that 4 Drones from the previous cycle are in their eggs) The other advantage to counting it out of 40 is that it's easy to add in the position of the Hatchery's normal larvae production -- again an egg counts as a full Drone, and position in the cycle is scored out of 15. If you count an Overlord egg the same as a Drone egg (i.e. you're counting larvae), then it's easy accommodate overlord production into the score. I really have the impression that most in this thread don't really care about production at all, though (at least for the purpose of this thread) -- just how quickly you are harvesting minerals. | ||
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BnK
United States538 Posts
On December 01 2010 05:12 crappen wrote: Lol, that replay was funny. Even though you had 3 times the army, 4 times the income, you did not attack with your superior ground army (did not even have tanks) :D He actually had to come to your base, and get picked off by 4 spines while your army chilled in the back, probably laughed their asses off. this terran dont know how to 2 rax | ||
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raded
United States21 Posts
If I scout hatch before pool, I'm going to roll over him with roaches. | ||
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
On December 01 2010 05:34 Hurkyl wrote:
I'm fairly convinced a straight line is better. Ah, agreed. I haven't thought too hard about the numbers, but I see what you mean - while the drones are in their eggs, the drone per second is increasing far faster until they hatch. A linear fit would be better. I just feel we're neglecting certain crucial aspects by only considering minerals mined, and counting the drones wrong. It's all very well having mined more, but if your cost of mining more was having your production lag behind your income (as evidenced by drone counts being higher for mined-less builds), that's clearly not optimal. I think 13p/16h actually comes out with a much higher drone count than hatch first builds when examined this way, which makes sense - it gets production off the ground much faster. | ||
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Malpractice.248
United States734 Posts
I thought people tested this before and found out that 9 OL was better than extractor tricks? Or is this simply for PURE economy...? What about going 10/10 OL, then 11/10 during OL building? | ||
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Phrencys
Canada270 Posts
 10 Overlord 10 Spawning Pool 16 Queen > Spawn Larvae[auto] 18 Hatchery > transfer 7 (10 sec) 17 Overlord 19 Queen 21 Overlord 28 Overlord 36 Overlord ----- 10 overpool seems to be ahead of 11overpool my a significant margin for some reason. | ||
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dezholling
United States7 Posts
On December 01 2010 06:48 Malpractice.248 wrote: Okay so i see that 11/10 ext before OL = better than 9 OL? I thought people tested this before and found out that 9 OL was better than extractor tricks? Or is this simply for PURE economy...? What about going 10/10 OL, then 11/10 during OL building? 9 overlord is *slightly* better than extractor trick, but only when you are planning to build a pool / hatch at 13+. When you build the pool on 11, the logic behind 9 overlord being better is no longer valid. You WILL get a much later 11 pool (and therefore delay the first queen) if you do 9 overlord compared to extractor trick. As to the build, I like it a lot. Personally, I have modified it to be a 12 overpool (double extractor trick) because of real game build order considerations. In a real game, I need to send out a scout drone, build a pair of zerglings after pool pops, and (desirably) kick out scouts with lings before starting 2nd hatch. With these considerations, I find it more advantageous economically to get a 12 overpool, because it allows me to build a 3rd overlord on 15 before the pool finishes while still having minerals for the queen. Not only does this give me the supply I need to make a pair of zerglings, but it also means I am more prepared for a rush since I immediately have extra supply when the pool finishes. | ||
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ChiknAdobo
United States208 Posts
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dezholling
United States7 Posts
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
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Sanrensei
Laos4 Posts
I wanted to try the "Lomilar" build (11 pool, 18 hatch) with some minor differences: - a set of glings as soon as the pool is done - extractor with 3 drones at 14 (they stay in, I don't pull them away after 100 gas or other) - metabolic boost as soon as I get 100 gas - a third queen in order to deal with aerian harass - a roach warren - a spine crawler - teching at 6:00 And honestly I was well-surprised because at 6:00 we can have nearly 38 drones, 2 zerglings, 3 queens, metabolic boost done and some minerals. So even in real game with real constraints, I feel this build pretty solid. | ||
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icezar
Germany240 Posts
On December 01 2010 07:04 Phrencys wrote: FWIW I know OP discards optimizers data but I'm not a 200apm zerg so that's all the data I can provide, so if someone wanna test this feel free otherwise just don't bother. 10 Overlord 10 Spawning Pool 16 Queen > Spawn Larvae[auto] 18 Hatchery > transfer 7 (10 sec) 17 Overlord 19 Queen 21 Overlord 28 Overlord 36 Overlord ----- 10 overpool seems to be ahead of 11overpool my a significant margin for some reason. The results are: Minerals 4050+380 drones 43 + 3/17 Not good. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On December 01 2010 07:04 Phrencys wrote: FWIW I know OP discards optimizers data but I'm not a 200apm zerg so that's all the data I can provide, so if someone wanna test this feel free otherwise just don't bother. 10 Overlord 10 Spawning Pool 16 Queen > Spawn Larvae[auto] 18 Hatchery > transfer 7 (10 sec) 17 Overlord 19 Queen 21 Overlord 28 Overlord 36 Overlord ----- 10 overpool seems to be ahead of 11overpool my a significant margin for some reason. I discard optimizer results and data, but not optimizer builds. I am willing to test any build, no matter how you came across it. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On December 01 2010 07:04 Phrencys wrote: FWIW I know OP discards optimizers data but I'm not a 200apm zerg so that's all the data I can provide, so if someone wanna test this feel free otherwise just don't bother. 10 Overlord 10 Spawning Pool 16 Queen > Spawn Larvae[auto] 18 Hatchery > transfer 7 (10 sec) 17 Overlord 19 Queen 21 Overlord 28 Overlord 36 Overlord ----- 10 overpool seems to be ahead of 11overpool my a significant margin for some reason. How are you showing 10 overpool ahead of 11 overpool? Because I know from testing that 11 overpool is better than 10 overpool for pretty much every single situation. 10 overpool is just bad, because it wastes so much larva spawn time. | ||
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nihoh
Australia978 Posts
Extractor trick to 12 Expansion at 12 OL at 11 Spawning pool at 14 | ||
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roadrunner343
148 Posts
Well I'm glad you guys at least got a kick out of the build. I never claimed he was the greatest terran, though like I said, it was a 1800 diamond game. And yes, I was laughing along with my army when he chose to attack. Why waste my army when the spines would take care of the hellions (There were a lot of them). I know I could have ended the game much sooner, but I was really in no threat of losing, so I was just massing. Anyways, that was not the point of that replay anyways. Please ignore the very poor mid-late game play on my part =) The point was, I think it is a very stable build economy wise, and you are able to get the lings out when needed due to the very early spawning pool. Of course you have to modify the build a little build by getting lings when you absolutely need them, but other than that, I like it so far. I'll upload more replays eventually of the Lomilar build if anyone would like them. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On December 01 2010 09:58 nihoh wrote: Can you try Extractor trick to 12 Expansion at 12 OL at 11 Spawning pool at 14 This build sounded interesting, but the results weren't so great. Drones: 39 + 3/17 Resources: 3900 + 540 = 4440 | ||
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